Why is there some games you just can't win?

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As written earlier( not in here in generall) tactics are only a small part of the game. If the players are not up for it, beingcomplacent, drop in form,slightly exhausted. Unmotivated, you/the *** man has given a dodgy press conf that does not match the ambition and mental state of the players... And naturally all the above things also goes for the opponent.

Already covered in the previous posts. Plenty of my experiments have proven that even if all of these factors are in your favour and your heavily fancied to win, you can still lose.

Now, consider a scenario where you have a disadvantage in the above ( poor press conf, complacent players etc) and the opponent have an advantage here( fired up team, players having a form peak etc), would you expect to win ?

I assume that you mean that you have the better players and a highly suitable tactic, but these other factors are against you. In this case, these factors would be taken into account by the match engine and weighed up accordingly and no, under these circumstances I would not necessarily expect to win. But this isn't really the question. The question implied by the original poster is, does the software interfere in some way with the likelyhood of you winning.

That's up to everyone to decide for themselves. I am as convinced about my views which have been expressed at length, as are those who have expressed alternative views.
 
Already covered in the previous posts. Plenty of my experiments have proven that even if all of these factors are in your favour and your heavily fancied to win, you can still lose.



I assume that you mean that you have the better players and a highly suitable tactic, but these other factors are against you. In this case, these factors would be taken into account by the match engine and weighed up accordingly and no, under these circumstances I would not necessarily expect to win. But this isn't really the question. The question implied by the original poster is, does the software interfere in some way with the likelyhood of you winning.

That's up to everyone to decide for themselves. I am as convinced about my views which have been expressed at length, as are those who have expressed alternative views.


I know it has been written ( i actually wrote so) and naturally you can still loose, that football. BUT given the OP, it looks like those variabler where NOT in his favours.

Also consider that whilst you pregame think they where, it might not be the case. Not many users actually make the press conf them selfes.

If you ( not YOU as such though ;) ) play à high pressing game, you are more likely to see scenarios like this as when the team dont press as à unit, the approach fails. Here, its not the tactic that fails as such, but the players Will to carry out the orders and the solution would be à tactic change.While this might not be the case Of the OP, its à common reason.
 
The amount of factors within match engine has to be so big, its not really possible to prove anything one way or the other. At least not without dedicating year of your life for simulations and experimentation. For example reloading the same match a 100 times isn't really statistically relevant.

The same goes for tactics , particularily for people who download those made by someone else.

You would have run thousands of simulations of the same season over and over again to reliably determine whether 4-2-3-1 made by one person is superior to 4-2-3-1 made by another.
 
If you can think like a manager and not like you are playing a game then it can be easy to avoid. Talk about players to put them under pressure (did this with Tim Krul and won the game 6-0 all goals were his mistake), tweek tactics on match days (no point playing to wide on a very narrow pitch or long balls on a windy day). Match prep helps as well beat spain 5-0 by setting defensive positioning and making them work to get through my team, hit them on the counter 44 mins and then scored 4 in the second half.

All things that happen in real life so you have to think about everything to do with your team not just set tactic and go.
 
The amount of factors within match engine has to be so big, its not really possible to prove anything one way or the other. At least not without dedicating year of your life for simulations and experimentation. For example reloading the same match a 100 times isn't really statistically relevant.

The same goes for tactics , particularily for people who download those made by someone else.

You would have run thousands of simulations of the same season over and over again to reliably determine whether 4-2-3-1 made by one person is superior to 4-2-3-1 made by another.

Yes, the larger the sample size the more you can trust the statistics obtained, but this does not mean that a smaller sample size has no relevance.

To say that "reloading the same match a 100 times isn't really statistically relevant", is way off. I'll reiterate. Replay with all parameters set exactly the same and make no in game changes. It doesn't matter in this case whether factors are on balance, in your favour or against, just make sure you always start with the same conditions and don't do anything during the 90+ minutes of play.

Play this way for 100 games and if you, for example win 50 times, draw 20 times and lose 30 times, it yields a 50% chance of winning with the given parameters above. The bigger the sample size, or number of games played, the more accurate this 50% figure would be, however a sample of 100 games is big enough to trust the 50% figure within just a few percent one way or the other.

Any decent statistician would be able to calculate the actual accuracy of this figure, but for certain, it's not neccessary to have sample sizes as large as you suggest.

Anyway, with over 8 years of playing all versions of FM since FM2005 and including CM03/04 before FM and CM split apart, with many thousands of matches played, I can assure you that I have relevant sample sizes.
 
To say that "reloading th same match a 100 times isn't really statistically relevant", is way off. I'll reiterate. Replay with all parameters set exactly the same and make no in game changes. It doesn't matter in this case whether factors are on balance, in your favour or against, just make sure you always start with the same conditions and don't do anything during the 90+ minutes of play.

Play this way for 100 games and if you, for example win 50 times, draw 20 times and lose 30 times, it yields a 50% chance of winning with the given parameters above. The bigger the sample size, or number of games played, the more accurate this 50% figure would be, however a sample of 100 games is big enough to trust the 50% figure within just a few percent one way or the other.

Oh, you can calculate chances of winning with set of predefined paramaters, with a relatively small sample, yeah. Its simple enough. But calculating which of those parameters, if any , are responsible for results , is a whole different story.

As a practical example imagine changing just one thing - say 100 games you attack through the middle and 100 games through the wings. Chances are results will be very close and you will need a lot bigger sample for better accuracy. Chances are you get significantly better results because attacking through wings is better tactic for this game. Chances are you get significantly better results because while attacking through wings is a worse tactic, it produces a lot of corners and there's a slight corner glitch that allows all the teams to score tiny bit more goals from set pieces than they're supposed to. And thats just one factor, you cant isolate them from each other.

I do not pretend to know how SI does things under the hood, but i bet they gather lot larger samples of data before even touching anything in the engine.

Anyway, with over 8 years of playing all versions of FM since FM2005 and including CM03/04 before FM and CM split apart, with many thousands of matches played, I can assure you that I have relevant sample sizes.

Except the engine gets changed and patched over the years ,therefore whatever "samples" you might have, they do not transfer between FM versions.

In the end it takes a leap of faith, they say the games arent fixed, i tend to believe them.There's no evidence to the contrary , and there won't be, unless someone gives up his day job for a year to run simulations while never patching his game.
 
Tyton,

The match engine is not changed from top to bottom each year and I fully agree that there are hundreds of factors which affect each match, (I mean there's 22 players on the pitch until someone gets sent off and each of these players has a whole host of stats, both visible and invisible, just to start with, let alone the multitude of tactic options, weather, pitch size, morale, form, team talks, pre match conferences and many other things), however, all of these factors taken together, will produce a mathematical likelyhood of any particular event occurring, and these events when taken together will also produce a probability of winning a match.

My contention, as stated so many times now, that SI have built in some form of probability modifier, odds stacker, or whatever you want to call it. You say that, "In the end it takes a leap of faith, they say the games aren't fixed, I tend to believe them. There's no evidence to the contrary...."

Where do they say that there isn't such a modifier in the game? And I'm not saying that the games are fixed, I am saying that the probability of getting the most likely result is sometimes, and I stress sometimes, tweaked, either in your favour or against. I haven't seen their (presumably SI's) comments, to believe or disbelieve. Quite honestly, any of the hundreds of factors mentioned can and will have an effect on the game and it's up to each player to analyse, these and respond accordingly. That isn't the issue here as all of that is obvious and can be taken as read.

It takes a much bigger leap of faith to accept that there is no such modifier than the fact that there is one.
 
But to be honest teams can lose and go on a losing streak i mean every team does it also even though it happens to me most of the time you just have to get on with it and late goals happen all the the time in real life to even though i hate it happening to me i just have to deal with it then blame the players for losing it.
 
That doesn't really matter if engine is only slightly changed with each version, its still so complex even little things can have unpredictable results.

Comparable thing in complexity would be for example chess engine. Top chess players won't go into serious match against computer engine without demanding version is completely frozen , having documentation of every patch, having enough time to practise with patched version before the actual game, stuff like that. Slight change still causes their "sample database" to become redundant, making them unable to prepare and thus at disadvantage.

Similarily , having played a lot of games with old versions of FM does not give anyone ability to figure out whether newest version is fixed.
 
I've come to my own conclussion. If I lose a game, I put it down to tactics, take it on the chin and concerntrate on the next game. I never replay a match, for me theres no fun in that. I like to keep it as real as I can on the managers side of things.

At the end of the day, if you keep replaying a game to win, when analysing the match(I do it), how are you ment to know where to improve for the next match? Also, at the end of the season how will you know where to strengthen if you concede 10 goals all season.

For me too keep the game as realistic as possible, you play it as realistic as possible. Theres no fuss, no mess that way :)
 
everyone gets their bad streak, Ive had them their frustrating where everything that can go wrong, and when injuries build up, but take it on the chin and get on with it, it happens in real life. I find the game quite realistic to be fair.
 
That doesn't really matter if engine is only slightly changed with each version, its still so complex even little things can have unpredictable results.

Comparable thing in complexity would be for example chess engine. Top chess players won't go into serious match against computer engine without demanding version is completely frozen , having documentation of every patch, having enough time to practise with patched version before the actual game, stuff like that. Slight change still causes their "sample database" to become redundant, making them unable to prepare and thus at disadvantage.

Similarily , having played a lot of games with old versions of FM does not give anyone ability to figure out whether newest version is fixed.

Sorry, but chess analogy is poor. Both players have a finite number of options for each move. White and black both only have 20 options for their first move for example. Computer chess engine will assign a specfic mathematical value to each move, based on calculating forward through a number of moves, looking at all of the different paths available. (Sure, the number of options soon stack up, but then number crunching is what computers are good at.)

Mechanisms are designed into computer chess programs to indentify favourable positions, whilst calculating ahead in this manner. First thing it will look for is whether it can force check-mate within the number of moves that it can calculate ahead, failing this it will look for opportunities to force the capture of opponents pieces or a favourable exchange, or a strategically superior position. For example, can the computer force you into an exchange that leaves you with weak doubled pawns etc., and when I say force you, I mean that any other option you take is even worse.

And so it goes on. Computer chess is based on clever programming, which is a combination of providing the software with extensive opening theory, knowledge of move combinations likely to lead to either a postional or material gain, end game theory (again, this is well known and it is possible to either force a win, or at least a draw, from a whole host of known end game situations.) Certain laws of the game apply and are fixed. Nothing new has been learnt in terms of end game theory for many decades, if not centuries.

Apart from this, there's not much else, except how long you allow the computer to calculate it's best move.

With computer chess, as with real life chess, there are no probabilities involved. With humans, it's probably the purest form of the meeting of two minds in competition and against a computer the mathematics are all based on calculating finite options and no probabilities whatsoever. Oh and computers don't make blunders, unless they're programmed in.

Of course, I'm talking about computers as per your post, that are programmed to take on the world's best human players.

Much consumer computer software will have some randomness, or intentional stupid moves by the computer, to allow us mere mortals the chance to win, but that's another story.

Football Manager, on the other hand is absolutely full of probabilities, almost everything in the game can be expressed in terms of probabilities, so Football Manager and Chess could not be more different.

As to my experience over the years and whether it translates from one years version of FM to the next, all I can say is that I have played enough of each version and each patch over the years, to conclusively prove to myself at least, that there are modifiers built into the game, outside of all of the known game parameters, including hidden stats that can be seen using FMRTE, that most definitely are used to adjust the probability of you winning or losing some games.

As Liverpool's new manager said, and I paraphrase:-

Some fans will follow their team blindly, whatever happens. (This equates to people who blindly accept what they're told and blissfully carry on playing the game, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as your enjoying it enough to continue.)

Some will question what's happening in their club, new manager's performance etc., but will be open to reason and will carry on with their support of the team. (To me, this fits with people who are prepared to listen to reasoned argument and do there own checking up to see if it's so. As long as finding out that you probably only have maybe 90% control over what happens in your game and that the other 10% comes down to what the game software decides, doesn't spoil your enjoyment of the game or outrage you, you will also continue to enjoy the game.) BTW, the 90% and 10% are arbitrary figures and may not represent the actual values, as I have not attempted to calculate these!

The last group that he describes are the critics who you'll never satisfy, whatever you do, and he doesn't worry about this group, as you can do nothing to change their minds. (To me, those who are determined to bury their heads in the sand, because they don't want to accept that they don't have full control themselves, or for some other reason are not prepared to test things out and find out for themselves, they fit this description from Rodgers.)

I have tried using reasoned argument, based on years of experimentation and observation, to describe what is going on, with many contributors to this and other similar threads, agreeing with my conclusions, sometimes fully and sometimes in part.

For those people who are not receptive to a reasoned debate and cannot provide any evidence to prove the opposite, I say, carry on enjoying this wonderful game with the rest of us, because in many ways it does not matter what you believe, as long as you enjoy the game.
 
Why go into it so much?? Reading through this thread some of the posts are pathetic!,

why try and "figure out the engine" just play the **** game man and have fun? dont let it ruin your life because you lost a game..just look at how you leaked them scruffy goals,work on it..then go out the next game with better knowledge,

Things happen in football..How many people here would of put money on United getting beat 6-1 to City? Or United beating Arsenal 8-2? sometimes footballs unpredictable..

thats life,Get over it!
 
Why go into it so much?? Reading through this thread some of the posts are pathetic!,

why try and "figure out the engine" just play the **** game man and have fun? dont let it ruin your life because you lost a game..just look at how you leaked them scruffy goals,work on it..then go out the next game with better knowledge,

Things happen in football..How many people here would of put money on United getting beat 6-1 to City? Or United beating Arsenal 8-2? sometimes footballs unpredictable..

thats life,Get over it!

Because some people are happy to play on without knowing how the match engine works, but others want to know why something happens and still others are sure they know why and will argue their side until the cows come home.

I'm not sure if you fit into the first or the third of those categories, but as long as you enjoy playing, carry on.

However, this part of the forum is there to cater for these types of discussions and if you don't find this discussion of interest, don't bother to read it and if you've got nothing useful to add, don't criticise it.
 
Well touchy,

calcal's point was that the match engine is unpredictable. No two games are the same and here is a point to back that up.

I am managing England and I was drawn the same WCQ group in two different saves, 1 I gave up on after loosing most of my sve during a recent CPU crash. The group is Ukraine, Moldova, Poland, San Marino and Montenegro.

I am at the same point as I was when I had the crash, am using the same formation with a younger squad than in the "lost save" and I have had two different results. Lost save I won 7-1 vs Ukraine and 2-0 vs Moldova, this save I won 2-0 vs Ukraine and 3-0 vs Moldova.

See the game seems to change the outcome of actual matches based on what you do to adapt to the situation and not some pre-planed or fixed scenario. (And yes I do have a lot of experience with FM and CM my first game was CM 3)
 
OK, I had a similar situation just recently playing Dortmund, cruising along in 1st place then a terrible loss to Kaiserslauten at home....then after a few more matches had a crash that wiped weeks worth of play. The last save was right before the horrible match.

So I played it again - again a horrible loss. Played it the third time, and this time I managed to score first....and went on to win 4-0. Actually went back to play it one more time, and again horrible loss. Was mixing up team talks and even tried some player interactions, and nothing really worked well enough to turn the tide. What I figured is that my team was just in a terrible mental state, a combination of very nervous yet still very complacent.. Played poorly to start, then once the first goal was surrendered almost all of them went into a shell of some kind.

The game wasn't "fixed", but due to my team's mindset - the result of weeks worth of matches - it was going to be very difficult to win no matter what I said in the press conference and team talks. There is no doubt that some matches are just much tougher no matter what tactics you try - but I wouldn't chalk it up to some "anti-streak" setting, just the natural tendencies of the players all lined up the wrong way at the wrong time.
 
So I played it again - again a horrible loss. Played it the third time, and this time I managed to score first....and went on to win 4-0.

The game wasn't "fixed", but due to my team's mindset - the result of weeks worth of matches - it was going to be very difficult to win no matter what I said in the press conference and team talks. There is no doubt that some matches are just much tougher no matter what tactics you try - but I wouldn't chalk it up to some "anti-streak" setting, just the natural tendencies of the players all lined up the wrong way at the wrong time.

So why do you think you managed to win one of your replays 4-0?

Your example above is a typical example of exactly what I've been talking about. The software weighted the probabilities of success against you, which doesn't mean that you can't win, as highlighted by your 4-0 success, but that you are very unlikely to win. This isn't to say that the outcome is fixed or scripted, otherwise you couldn't have won one of your 4 attempts.

Also, you describe 3 horrible losses, but don't mention the scores, so I assume that you lost each time by quite a margin and yet won your one victory by a large margin. Look at the huge swing and tell me that's down to player mentality etc.
 
He is pointing out what almost everybody here is saying. It is NOT "fixed". During the 8-2 loss at Old Trafford had Arsenal converted on of their many chances to take the lead would they have lost that game? Maybe but they would have had more confidence.
The same rules apply to FM, there is a little thing called motivation, if the players are low in confidence, un-fit, and lack motivation then they will loose games badly. The same is for the reverse.
Danbo's point seems to be that by scoring first and holding that lead his side were able to grow in confidence and eventually win comfortably. I'd even wager that 3 of the 4 goals came within a 15-20 period. It happens alot in FM, why do you think the game includes "mental" attributes? It's not fixed it is just a combination of the following, determination, pressure and other hidden attributes. It is not fixed.
 
He is pointing out what almost everybody here is saying. It is NOT "fixed".

Did you bother to read my last post properly?

I said, and I'll quote "This isn't to say that the outcome is fixed or scripted"

What's the difference between the three games that he lost horribly and the one that he won. You don't know, maybe in one of his horrible defeats he scored first, but that even going into the lead it didn't give his players the confidence to go on and win. Obviously Danbo can confirm that either way, but whatever was the case, to prove my point I recommend you try replays in a game that you just lost unexpectedly, but that you don't attempt to get it right next time around by changing stuff, instead just leave everything set the same and try to do all of the same things in game if possible.

You'll get different outcomes all of the time, sometimes you'll win, maybe draw or lose, but if it's a game that the software has decided to stack against you, you will find it hard to get victories.

I keep trying to express this in terms that people like yourself would understand, so let me try something simple.

Imagine that if all factors in the game are taken into account as you enter a match that you would expect to easily win, your tactics, players form, mentality, morale and so on, your press conference handled perfectly, team talks for team and individuals spot on, weather conditions, pitch size and everything else, both for your team and for the opposition. Under these circumstances it should be possible to calculate the probability (note that I say probability and not certainty) of you winning the match.

Now for us this would be complex as there are so many variables, but for a computer, number crunching is their game so no real problem. So the computer determines that you have a 90% chance of winning. My strongly held belief, formulated following a massive amount of experimentation and not just anecdotal evidence, is that the software has an additional variable, or set of variables, that we don't see, but that are there just the same, that can take a game like this and shift the odds away from us and maybe just give us a 10% chance of winning that particular match, which in the case I have just suggested, would mean that we would only win once out of every 10 attempts on average, again assuming that we did everything as well as possible.

So I have never, ever said that the outcomes are fixed, just that the odds are shifted one way or the other on occasion.
 
First things first "people like you" is a bit much. I am not being dismissive of you so lets leave it at that.
Secondly, Danbo actually stated he scored first in he game he won (read his post again).
Thirdly, I never said the outcome was not fixed or that this was your point, I simply stated that the game is not fixed.
As I said before I have been playing FM and CM before since CM3 and before that LMA and Player Manager so please don't try and be rude or talk down to me mate (I ain't picking an argument just making a point).

As people have said already the game has changed since the days of CM3 and even FM05, now things like team talks, squad morale, in game conditions, injuries, confidence and motivation are big factors now, all I am saying is this.

Thinking that the game stacks the odds against you is an easy out, it seems to show that the player can find an excuse for loosing a game he was meant to win. It takes the fun and "real lie" element out of the game (not that it is real life but it tries to sim real life) replaying games is a bit of a cheat but one that many, including myself, have done.
For those of us that try and improve our own abilities (again in the game) loosing is essential, and I am sure the great David Moyes would not be promoting the use of the FM series if it was, in essence, a fraud.
So let us all keep believing we are better than Wenger, Fergie, Hodgson etc because that is why we buy it in the first place.
 
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