Basic Questions to comprehend the game better

[Metz]

I have some questions that may make people understand the game better when it comes to making tactics.


1) When are ball playing defenders good to have as part of your tactic? What happens when you have 2 ball playing defenders and while having 2 wingbacks/fullbacks?

2) Is it good to have 2 ball winning midfielders?

3) Is it good to play both an advanced playmaker and a deep-lying playmaker in a 4-3-3 (1 cdm and 2 cm) and in a 4-2-3-1/4-2-3-1 deep? Will the midfield be lacking defensive elements by doing so?

4) Is it ideal to have symmetrical wingers (two inside forwards or two wingers, etc.)? Would it then be good to also have them in the same attack or support duties?

5) How do you get your AMC and ST to work together? What is the right type of pairing?

6) How do you emulate a False 9? What about a CF/Second Striker?

7) Is it useful to have an anchorman? Or is this only for really defensive tactics and defensive occasions?

8) How do you make sure your striker is your main scorer (when playing lone striker formations)?

9) Are formations like 3-5-2 and 4-6-0 and 3-4-4 ever used? Are they useful or flawed?

10) Does player personality have an effect on teammates in a match? If so, then would it be best to have several players that are "Leaders" or "Very Ambitious" or "Resolute" or "Professional", etc?

11) Is there anything that is currently flawed in FM13 or in the FM series as a whole?

12) What formations are good for what? 4-4-2 is balanced, but which are the counter-attacking formations and why? Which are the possession based formations and why?

 

[Metz]

No one wants to help out?

 

[iNickStuff]

(1) You can find out if your defender(s) is/are qualified to play as Ball-Playing Defenders by going to their profile page and, just above their list of attributes, selecting from the drop-down menu Defenders -> Ball-Playing Defender.

I then highlights what are the key areas for this position and what they need to be successful at it. The minimum attribute rating should be 13, however the most important would be Anticipation, Concentration, Composure, Balance, Heading, Tackling, Marking, Team Work and Passing.

 

[iNickStuff]

[there are too many questions for me to answer, it is 3AM, so I will get back to them later. I am also on my iPod Touch]

(2) It depends on the tactic. Primarily one requires a defensive-minded midfielder to somewhat 'hold the fort' in midfield, committing to a more solid duty and distributing the ball accordingly. Parallel to him would be a midfielder much more capable of passing the ball, moving into much more positive positions, thus helping in defensive and attacking transitions, as well as providing an outlet for the wide players or the strikers should they run into trouble.

To be more direct: no, generally you should not have two Ball-Winning Midfielders in your tactic. What you should do is have one Ball-Winning Midfielder set to Defend duty and another set to either Deep-Lying Playmaker on Defend duty or Support duty. Even then, the Central Midfielder role and Advanced Playmaker roles area just as recommended as each other.

In a 4-4-2 formation for example it would be strongly advised against since you're likely to be flooded in the centre of the park without an outlet in moving forward and your wingers will suffer as a result since they will lack service. Use one Ball-Winning Midfielder, as suggested before in a 4-4-2, and the other options in something like a deep-seated 4-2-3-1 formation or a 4-3-3 with a DM(C).

 

[iNickStuff]

(3) to answer this simply, no. The type of Deep-Lying Playmaker is important however, as they must require some defensive attributes in order to be a positive influence on the team in defensive and attacking transitions.

 

[iNickStuff]

(4) Yes and yes. Having two wingers with similar duties and roles is the best decision in most cases (I assume you're not trying something too advanced with your tactics).

You may come across players in your team who may have poorer attributes in some areas (I.E Crossing, Composure, Decisions) and would not be suited to one role, but adjusting the sliders in the Player Instructions, as well as the right team-talks, training schedules and match shouts can significantly improve the potential gains you will get out of them.

For example, if you are playing a standardised 4-4-2 formation, your best course of action would be to use an M(L) and M(R) in a Winger role with Attack duty. The two mirroring each other's roles means that the team overall can benefit from the two carrying out the same objective and ultimate achieving the desired result - draw against a testing opposition, a rout against a smaller team, whatever it may be - without one doing one thing correctly and the other something completely different. More often than not it damages your chances of victory.


[I am going to go to bed now, so will come back to this thread and answer more/all of your questions later]

 

[TheSimeon]

Someone recently encourage me to be more active in the community, so I'll take a stab at a few of these!

1) When are ball playing defenders good to have as part of your tactic? What happens when you have 2 ball playing defenders and while having 2 wingbacks/fullbacks?

I've tried to make these work without much success over the years. It seems like it would be cool, but what they actually do is usually kinda bad. Do you want your centerbacks to distribute the ball to the wings, or to avoid hoofing the ball upfield? If so, they don't need to be BPD's to do this, they just need a good composure attribute. If you want them to bomb upfield with the ball, a-la david luiz, you end up with the david luiz problem, which is that you're now short a centerback, and vulnerable on the counter. Also, when you set a defender to BPD, one of the things the game does with the sliders is increase the players creative freedom, which basically just equates to giving your centerback license to ignore your carefully crafted closing down and tackling settings, which is a disaster.

2) Is it good to have 2 ball winning midfielders?

Depends on how many midfielder's you're playing with. You may find yourself short of creativity, But i've had excellent success at times by playing with two central enforcers, and playing the ball down the flanks when on the attack, bypassing them for the most part.

More generally, no, you'll lack incisiveness going forward.

3) Is it good to play both an advanced playmaker and a deep-lying playmaker in a 4-3-3 (1 cdm and 2 cm) and in a 4-2-3-1/4-2-3-1 deep? Will the midfield be lacking defensive elements by doing so?

If you're worried about this, go in and adjust their defensive settings so that they are free to experiment in attack, but still expected to put in a tackle.

4) Is it ideal to have symmetrical wingers (two inside forwards or two wingers, etc.)? Would it then be good to also have them in the same attack or support duties?

Eh. It's ideal to have your wingers do what they are good at. I find that having a winger who cuts inside, and having a winger who crosses from the byline can add variety to the attack. You can then have them swap positions from time to time (assuming they are good on both feet), and you are maximizing your chance to break through somehow.... Attacks that have balance on both sides are usually the most effective, but NEVER at the expense of having a player doing things he sucks at.

5) How do you get your AMC and ST to work together? What is the right type of pairing?

There is a great post here somewhere called something like a "guide to partnerships" that would be helpful in addressing this.

6) How do you emulate a False 9? What about a CF/Second Striker?

Oy. Frankly, I don't have the energy for this one.

7) Is it useful to have an anchorman? Or is this only for really defensive tactics and defensive occasions?

Your going to find that a player role CANNOT be divorced from player attributes. If your enforcer really can't pass or make good decisions, anchor man is good, if he is at all useful going forward, you're probably better off playing him as a defensive midfielder, unless you are really worried about being hit on the counter, and want him to hang back.

8) How do you make sure your striker is your main scorer (when playing lone striker formations)?

This can actually be pretty tricky in ME 13.2. My best tactics have often had most of my goals coming from the wings, and frankly, I'm fine with that.

9) Are formations like 3-5-2 and 4-6-0 and 3-4-4 ever used? Are they useful or flawed?

I've experimented with a 4-2-4-0 pretty extensively, and actually had a lot of success with it at Chelsea. Keep in mind that because of the way the ME handles through balls and long balls, this formation will NOT work playing a "counter" or "direct" style.

Juventus has kicked my *** more than a few times using 3-5-2, so you might want to start there for that formation. I also find that playing against a team that is much, much better than me, playing a 3-5-2 narrowly congests the midfield so much that it becomes VERY difficult for the opposition to score.

10) Does player personality have an effect on teammates in a match? If so, then would it be best to have several players that are "Leaders" or "Very Ambitious" or "Resolute" or "Professional", etc?

I can't prove it, but I think that the answer is no. The exception is of course your captain and co-captain. The way it seems to work is that a captain with a a high influence will move other players towards whatever his state of mind is during the match. Thus if he is "looking complacent" or "looking motivated" other players are more likely to be. the higher his influence attribute, the more likely he is to sway others. but non captain players do not effect one another.

I know I've read somewhere that the influence attribute is ONLY important for captains.

11) Is there anything that is currently flawed in FM13 or in the FM series as a whole?

Sure, but I don't want to start anything.

12) What formations are good for what? 4-4-2 is balanced, but which are the counter-attacking formations and why? Which are the possession based formations and why?

I think you'll find that this is also a HUGE question to bite off. You may be better of breaking this down into several more specific queries.

 

[Metz]

What does a 4-2-3-1 offer that a 4-3-3 (1 cdm, 2 cm) can't and vice-versa?

What is more stable between a 4-2-3-1 (2cm) and a 4-2-3-1 deep (2 cdm)?

When is it good to use a trequartista?

When is it good to tick the playmaker and target man checkmarks?

Should you only have one player at a time with the "dictates tempo" ppm on your team?

Can 2 box-to-box players substitute a defensive player and a supporting player properly when they play next to a playmaker in a midfield of 3?

When is it ideal to play complete forwards? Target men?

 

[Metz]

No one wants to answer?

 

[Coupdhaha]

In short, you can view the 4-3-3 as more defensive than the 4-2-3-1. You essentially are switching a AMC for a DMC.

Obviously the 4-2-3-1 deep is going to be more "stable" than the one with 2 cm. However, the 4-2-3-1 IS quite defensive, and I don't any supports of a top team would be very happy if their manager used a 4-2-3-1 deep as their usual tactic. With the 2 DM, you'll be looking to defend well, and hit them on the counter, hence why you still have 3-1 up front.

If you're looking to defend strongly and hopefully be able to dictate a bit of gameplay as well, I would play a 5 man flat midfield. With this midfield it allows you choke off that midfield area and also allows you to get a lot of bodies back, with also allows you to pass the ball around if you are able to.

It's good to play trequartista, CF and Target Men when you have the ideal players to do so. And using them fits into your tactic. There really isn't some sort of formula as to when to play what. Obviously you'll have to use your wits about you. If you're choosing to use a Target Man, his effectiveness might be lessened when you're facing a CD with 20 strength, 20 jumping, etc.

As for the 2 box-to-box midfielders, yes it is possible. I use it myself as my more defensive tactic. Well I actually have my playmaker flanked by a BWM on his left and a Box-Box midfielder on his right. It's a very good way to stabilising that midfield, increasing possession and control. I use a BWM rather than two Box-Box midfielders as I like to have at least one CM back a bit. Also true Box-Box midfielders are a bit of a rare find as they have to have both defensive skills as well as the skills to attack (such as dribbling, shooting, creativity). So they're bit more of a rare breed than a BWM. I use Cleverly as my Box-Box midfielder when I need to. Not that he's that good defensively, but he has the attacking skills and work rate to be a good Box-Box midfielder.

 

[GodCubed]

What does a 4-2-3-1 offer that a 4-3-3 (1 cdm, 2 cm) can't and vice-versa?

What is more stable between a 4-2-3-1 (2cm) and a 4-2-3-1 deep (2 cdm)?

When is it good to use a trequartista?

When is it good to tick the playmaker and target man checkmarks?

Should you only have one player at a time with the "dictates tempo" ppm on your team?

Can 2 box-to-box players substitute a defensive player and a supporting player properly when they play next to a playmaker in a midfield of 3?

When is it ideal to play complete forwards? Target men?

No one wants to answer?

Since Nick is no doubt preoccupied with the great RAM crisis of 2013, I'll answer.

A 4-2-3-1 can offer a defensive square, offering greater defensive solidity, as well as a true attacking midfielder who can support the striker. In other words, it is more flexible in its implementation than a 4-3-3, but a 4-3-3 is better at retaining the ball and playing possession football.

It isn't really an issue stability so much as philosophy. A 4-2-3-1 with two CMs is naturally more attacking, letting the duo get higher up the pitch but sacrificing defensive solidity between the lines.

When you have a player that is lazy, a particularly good finisher (AM only), or your tactics are built so that you can use a player drifting between the lines and looking to get into counterattacking positions when your team is defending rather than tracking back.

When, respectively, you want a player to have the majority of the team's play flow through him, and you want the player to be your primary striker, the type of which is specified by what type of target man is checkmarked (to head for a big striker, to feet for a creative one, run onto ball for a pacey one).

Not at all. Dictates tempo is never a bad attribute.

They can indeed, so long as you use your head and make sure their roles aren't too muddled.

Target men is pretty simple, when you're looking to get the ball wide and/or play someone off the strength and size of a big man up front. A complete forward is useful when you have a striker that is markedly good for the league, or just a forward that is particularly well-rounded.

 

[CauseAndEffectIsReal]

I'll take those I feel I have something to say about. God help me if it's all of them...

1) When are ball playing defenders good to have as part of your tactic? What happens when you have 2 ball playing defenders and while having 2 wingbacks/fullbacks?

Ball-playing defenders would work in your tactic on two conditions. First, that you have defenders with good passing, creativity, technique, and decisions. If you don't, and you insist on playing them as ball-playing defenders, they'll be giving the ball away all the time. Secondly, they need somewhere to go with the ball, so I assume they're launching passes to players making runs further up the field--you're probably countering or attacking fast. (Then again, maybe you're playing a really fluid, pushed-up defensive line, possession tactic with short passing in which everyone gets involved! Fun!) A bigger question I have is, where are you going to find two ball-playing defenders who are also excellent defenders? Won't that be much more expensive than just one talented Deep Lying Playmaker?

As for having them with fullbacks/wingbacks, sure, why not. Too many tactical possibilities to really address this, I think. Let me ask a follow-up: what sort of formation/tactic do you want to play a full back line of good passers in?

3) Is it good to play both an advanced playmaker and a deep-lying playmaker in a 4-3-3 (1 cdm and 2 cm) and in a 4-2-3-1/4-2-3-1 deep? Will the midfield be lacking defensive elements by doing so?

My initial takeaway is, your AP isn't going to be making runs further up the pitch (not the way he would if he were, say an IF or an AM). So this means you'd have two players moving all around deeper, finding space to receive for simple passes, and that might be really great: good for possession, I'd think. But it might mean you don't have enough players moving around the defense to pull defenders out of position or open up a goalscoring attacking run. What's everybody else doing while your two playmakers are looking to receive passes deeper down the pitch?

5) How do you get your AMC and ST to work together? What is the right type of pairing?
8) How do you make sure your striker is your main scorer (when playing lone striker formations)?

I put these together for a reason. Let me rephrase the first one. How do you get your two players to work together? A lot of players like IF and TM. But if the guy at AMC has 8 pace and 10 dribbling, that'd be a poor pairing.

Let's start with something basic. Who's playing up top? I don't just mean your striker/AMC; do you have wingers up there too? When you get the ball, how does it get to the other end? Are the wingers taking it down and crossing? Are you passing it through the defense? Who on YOUR TEAM do you want, ideally, to make the pass that creates a shot? This is more important than figuring out what generally works in FM's tactics.

Let's get more specific: if your striker is taking the ball down the field, he is drawing the defense to him. Assuming your offense isn't based around him dribbling through everyone, he is going to have to pass the ball. If he's not scoring, it might be because he is the one setting up the possession, and once he's set it up, he's not in position to finish anything. On the other hand, if he receives the ball, lays it off to your AMC, who sends a winger down the byline, your striker is probably more free in the box to receive a cross/through ball from the winger.

Sorry it's confusing; these are just so situational. I think a lot of tactical advice can be misleading because we say, "Well, here's what I do." But your players and mine are probably different.

7) Is it useful to have an anchorman? Or is this only for really defensive tactics and defensive occasions?

Think of an anchorman as a bodyguard for your defense. He's there to prevent you from getting overrun, to make sure you have at least the same number of defenders, or to help against a superior (more talented) opposition by giving you a man advantage. I just wrote a whole bunch about this on this forum, so I will shameless plug my much-too-long guide here: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...understanding-preventing-slumps-bad-form.html

The anchorman also cycles possession, so he might prevent needless clears.

Plus, if you have a really potent attack, it might be valuable to leave an extra man back; you don't need him up there anyway!

Finally, I think anchorman is a great spot for developing players; can't mess up too fatally in that position.

10) Does player personality have an effect on teammates in a match? If so, then would it be best to have several players that are "Leaders" or "Very Ambitious" or "Resolute" or "Professional", etc?

Yes. I don't know what they all do specifically, but they definitely do, if that makes any sense. Maybe it doesn't.

12) What formations are good for what? 4-4-2 is balanced, but which are the counter-attacking formations and why? Which are the possession based formations and why?

[/quote]

It highly depends on your players: what they are capable of and how you set them up. 4-4-2 can be a sell-out attacking formation, too, or even a really defensive one. Granted, there are extremes: 3-4-3 is probably not the easy shape to use to defend, but then again, you could use a defensive-minded wide midfielder, a ball winner on support, and a deep lying play maker on defend and probably do a pretty good job of it. It's not just the starting position of the players on the pitch; it's what they do after the whistle is blown and the ball starts kicking around.

Woo. Time for coffee.

 

[Scotty98TR]

1)Only really good when you play out of defence alot and are a big club (E.g Barcelona). Playing 2 ball playing defenders will leave you very open to counter-attacks so not a good idea, it would probably be better to never use one and just change the passing style and run with ball in the players instructions

2) If you are playing defensively and a direct passing game then yes, but you should set at least one to support unless you aren't interested in scoring at all (E.g. hanging onto a lead late in a match)

3)Both those roles means they players will track back depending on your Team Instructions, and it can work well if you are playing a short, possession game but would probably be better to set the DLP as a BBM or CM.

4)It depends on your players. It isn't better or worse to have them on the same role, but it will add abit more dynamism (Is that a word? Lol) especially if you tell them to swap positions.

5) The best pairing would the AM to be a support duty and the ST to be attack duty. Advanced playmaker and poacher/advanced forward is ideal

6) Depends how you want him to play. Putting the ST as a trequarista means he will play like Fabregas at the recent Euros (Drop into the false 9 position but will hold up the ball and play in teammates more than looking to score, or put him as a DLF-attacking role for a more attacking role Not sure what you mean by second striker?

7) more for defensive times, but can be useful if you have a weak defense/are up against a stronger team.

8) Set him as your target man in team instructions, but it shouldn't matter. It seems harder for alot of people to get your striker scoring on this years game, but who cares as long as someone is scoring?

9) Any formation (Within reason) can be good if it fits your team and exposes your opponents weakness. Spain won the Euros using a sort of 4-6-0 formation, but it is hard to score with this on FM. 3 at the back formations are also used alot and can be really effective.

10) Determined players are good to have when you are losing, profession when you are winning and don't want complacency, etc. The player personalities probably have more effective off the pitch though.

11) The long shots especially. Only thing I really have a problem with is the amount of long shots players have (Due to lack of movement by off the ball players and defenders not closing down)

12) 4-4-2 can be ideal for a counter-attacking tactic, as it provides lots of cover for deep, zonal marking and has 4 very attacking players on the team (The strikers and the widemen)

4-2-3-1 is a good possession tactic because of the central midfield 3, and all the all-important triangles involved!

 

[fm20]

Just a comment on the BPD question - I've always used one in the past, but have abandoned it for FM13. I found my defenders, even ones who should be good at it were caught out of position too often, it's easy to interpret it as meaning a defender who plays the ball, but what you're really setting is someone who will make forward runs, play long passes/killer balls etc. This can be completely against what you're trying to achieve. I now use two CBs, both set to defend and can focus on their defending then make sure there's a defensive minded midfielder to recycle through - both need good decisions and composure attributes, but I worry less about technique now. Watch the PPMs for anyone you want at the back - if their inclination is to boot it away at the first sign of trouble you won't retain possession.

 

[kenji02]

i have tried 4-6-0 once. It worked like a charm for several matches. Thrashed man utd chelsea arsenal more than 2 goals at home with swansea in my second season but then it went downhill.lol

 

[Metz]

Whats the difference between a Poacher and a Advanced Forward? And a Trequartista and a Deep-lying Forward?

When are Defensive Wingers ever used (which players are Defensive wingers)?

 

[rekpe]

Whats the difference between a Poacher and a Advanced Forward? And a Trequartista and a Deep-lying Forward?

When are Defensive Wingers ever used (which players are Defensive wingers)?

You can see the difference between Poacher, advanced forward etc in the tactic creator screen.

Defensive wingers are useful if you're facing an opponent with an attacking full/wingback. An example of defensive wingers are Park Ji-Sung, Ryan Bertrand etc

 

[Metz]

They both are more or less described the same. What I am asking is what do they do on the pitch differently from one another.

 

[Scotty98TR]

They both are more or less described the same. What I am asking is what do they do on the pitch differently from one another.

2 examples of an advanced forward and a poacher in real life: Poacher - Hernandez, AF - Welbeck

The poacher will concentrate solely on scoring, ignoring his team mates most of the time. He won't try and get the ball back off defenders unless they are right in front of him, and he will generally shoot at every opportunity.

An AF however also looks to play in others, hold up the ball and press defenders. An AF is basically a DLF but who wait's further up the pitch. I'd say an AF is actually closer to a TM than a Poacher

 

[Metz]

Does the poacher do runs to open up the defense or he only waits to get the ball and run to score?


Are there any formations that don't suit certain type of strikers?

What happens if you play with 2 poachers?

Can a DLF be paired with a AF?

Are there any good examples of a Trequartista in the Premier League?