Bayern München Tactic Creation(Help required!)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Arvind K
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 39
  • Views Views 14K
Bastian is a DLP, and Mario doesnt always stay high up (DLF/Complete forward support)

The rest is spot on.

The thing with Schweinsteiger is that he gets forward, into the final third, sometimes and as a DLP, his FWR are set to "Rarely". There were even times I saw him pop up inside the opposition box and as a DLP, I do not think that he will do that, although I have not checked his PPM's.

With regards to Gomez/Mandzukic, they do drop deep at times but had no assists, key passes, through balls etc. when I last checked. So they do not contribute that much to build up play aside from the movement. That is why I thought AF was best because with the roaming, they would drop deep and move out wide at times.
 
The thing with Schweinsteiger is that he gets forward, into the final third, sometimes and as a DLP, his FWR are set to "Rarely". There were even times I saw him pop up inside the opposition box and as a DLP, I do not think that he will do that, although I have not checked his PPM's.

With regards to Gomez/Mandzukic, they do drop deep at times but had no assists, key passes, through balls etc. when I last checked. So they do not contribute that much to build up play aside from the movement. That is why I thought AF was best because with the roaming, they would drop deep and move out wide at times.

I'd give Bastian Roaming if you wanted to encourage that, but he is certainly a DLP.

Mario certainly contributes to the build up, lots of short link up play before peeling off, Gomez is much more of an on the shoulder poacher. It's why Mario is preferred to Gomez, because he links up with the front three
 
Actually re: Bayern set up ( not yours) I would set the closing down and creative freedom to default. Bayern are an outstanding unit, who can quickly shift style, whether thats to aggressive pressing, or standing off and creating an impassable wall. They are also intelligent without being overly flamboyant as an overall side

I would agree with setting Pressing to default but I think giving them more CF will leave the decision, of whether to press or stand off, up to the players.
 
I would agree with setting Pressing to default but I think giving them more CF will leave the decision, of whether to press or stand off, up to the players.

CF is a flair modifer. Bayern as a side are not overly flamboyant, nor constantly trying to pull of the unexpected. They work intelligently within a given framework
 
I have studied a few of Bayern's games this season and this is how I think they set up:

GK - SK-Support
DR - WB-Support
DCR - CD-Cover
DCL - CD-Stopper
DL - WB-Support
DMCR - DM-Defend
DMCL - DM-Support
AMR - IF-Attack
AMC - AM-Support
AML - IF-Attack
FC - AF-Attack

Philosophy - Fluid
Strategy - Control

Passing - Shorter
CF - More Expressive
Closing Down - Press More
Roaming - More Roaming

Everything else on default.

The Keeper sweeps up behind the defence and is not afraid to step out with the ball at his feet. There is a definite split mentality between the CB's. The full backs get forward a lot based on the heat maps I have seen on whoscored.com

Usually one DM gets forward to support the attack (Schweinsteiger) and the other holds position (Gustavo/Martinez). Kroos roams around and helps out in defence as well as getting forward to provide/score. The to wide players come inside a lot and get beyond the striker quite a bit.

And the striker focuses on scoring goals but does move around a bit to create space/link up.

skg7vkE.png


The average player positions from the recent game against Hoffenheim.

25 (Muller) and 7 (Ribery) come inside and get beyond the striker. 33 (Gomez) leads the line but also moves around. 11 (Shaqiri) gets beyond the striker at times but also stays back at times hence the roaming.

21 (Lahm) and 27 (Alaba) bomb forward often. There is a definite mentality split between the DC's 17 (Boateng) pushes up and 4 (Dante) hangs back. 8 (Martinez) holds position in front of the DC's and 31 (Schweinsteiger) gets forward in support of the attacks.

The keeper is not too advanced in this match because it is Starke and not Neuer.

Great info thanks :)
 
Right!

Still in the projekt with Fulham. Thanks everybody for the information given here.

I´ve been playing for some time now watching extended higlights looking for the movement I find in the bayern matches. My current setup is:

gk

wbs cb cb wbs
bwmd bbms
ifs ams ifs
af

This looks alot like the real thing i think. maybe the af is a little to advanced, but he links up with the runs of the midfielders like he should. So mostly the Gomez performance. The wide midfielders bresk inside at the right times, and are very involved in play. they sometimes cross. Not from the byline, but just outside the area witch looks right, and by the way wirks a treat :)

The bbm is not a playmaker. He does get a lot os the ball and movement seems right. He is outside the box but runs in when there is space.

I have just made a drastic change to roaming and creative freedom. Roaming is now set to none and creative freedom is at a minimum. I find this produces something much more pleasing, onetouch football. It might be down to my poor Fulham team and might need changing in the future. But right now with the support ifs and lov roamin/freative freedom they also mark and track back more like Bayern.
 
something like this then?

I would say the striker is more a target man with support but i know where you coming from with the complete as gomez, mandzukic are a perfect striker same as Gerd Müller was.

all from zonal

Bayern took a commanding lead following a dominant first leg performance.

Arsene Wenger chose to leave out Olivier Giroud, using Theo Walcott as the primary striker with Santi Cazorla right and Aaron Ramsey in midfield. Left-back problems forced Thomas Vermaelen into that position.

Jupp Heynckes was without Jerome Boateng and long-term injury victim Holger Badstuber, so Daniel van Buyten came in at centre-back.

Arsenal made another poor start at the Emirates, and despite a promising spell for Wenger’s side after the break, Bayern always looked the better side.

Wenger selection

This game was always likely to be won and lost in midfield, where both coaches use good passers as their deepest midfielder, creating a midfield zone blessed with great technical quality. Indeed, Wenger’s team selection recognised this – by using Jack Wilshere as the number ten, and Santi Cazorla drifting inside, Wenger was trying to squeeze an extra passer into his side, at the expense of the directness that comes with playing two wide forwards.

The other reason for this shape was that Walcott’s pace would theoretically caused Van Buyten problems – the Belgian was never the quickest, and these days is clearly a liability with his lack of speed – but Arsenal never got the ball to Walcott in the right situations.

Bayern without the ball

Scoring three away goals in a European tie is highly impressive, but Bayern were actually more impressive without the ball, making Arsenal’s build-up play slow and predictable, and denying them space in the final third. There were three things Bayern did well without the ball:

(1) Bayern pressed very well at the start of the game. Toni Kroos moved forward to join Mario Mandzukic upfront and caused Arsenal’s centre-backs problems in possession. For the first goal, for example, Kroos pressing Laurent Koscielny resulted in Arsenal conceding possession cheaply inside their own half, and Kroos eventually provided the finishing touch. Kroos and Mandzukic’s work was backed up by proactive positioning from Javi Martinez and Bastian Schweinsteiger – Martinez, in particular, kept intercepting the ball in advanced positions (for Bayern’s deepest midfielder) and Arsenal took too long to get into a passing rhythm – Bayern were already 0-2 up by the time the home side started playing.

(2) When Arsenal did manage longer spells of possession, Bayern’s shape was excellent. It was two banks of four, with Kroos and Mandzukic often dropping back into the midfield zone, leaving Arsenal’s centre-backs unopposed, but making it difficult for them to play incisive passes into the midfield. The prospect of Walcott’s pace meant Bayern couldn’t afford to play a high defensive line and therefore sat deeper than usual, and the need to stay compact forced the front two back into deep positions. They got through their defensive work admirably, and both were substituted because of the amount of running they were forced to do.

(3) Not only was Bayern’s shape good, but their defensive transitions were extremely quick – when they lost the ball, they were back in defensive positions immediately. There was one situation, towards the end of the first half, when Walcott was running one-versus-one at the last defender, but Bayern got numbers back to offer support, and in the end they crowded out Arsenal so much that it became yet another slow passing move, with the centre-backs finding themselves on the ball with eleven Bayern players between them and the opposition goal.

Arsenal without ball

Arsenal’s approach when Bayern had the ball was less positive – they generally stood off in their own half and allowed Bayern to start passing moves. This was a less exaggerated example of Arsenal’s 2-2 draw against Barcelona three years ago, when Barca’s early pressing left Arsenal shellshocked, and seemingly unable to instinctively respond with pressing of their own.

Eventually Arsenal got the idea midway through the first half and got into Bayern, but the tackling was often clumsy and resulted in a flurry of yellow cards.

Bayern also passed around Arsenal’s pressing cleverly by bringing Thomas Muller and Franck Ribery inside into central positions – which was essentially what Wenger’s plan had been with Cazorla. The Spaniard, however, was tracked inside closely by David Alaba.

Bayern right

With the ball, Bayern were most dangerous down their right. Here, Arsenal were naturally weakened with Vermaelen out of position on that side, and although it wasn’t a disaster to have a centre-back playing against Thomas Muller, who drifts into central positions naturally, Muller was left unopposed to cross to Kroos for the first goal.

The major problem, though, came from the ’second’ man running into that space. Most often it was Philipp Lahm, who typically motored forward with great pace and consistency, and simply won his individual duel against Lukas Podolski (although later it was Cazorla, when moved to the left, who let him go free to cross for Mandzukic’s goal).

However, it was also notable that both Schweinsteiger and Martinez popped up in advanced right-sided positions, which is strange for an away side in a Champions League tie, especially when they took an early lead. This probably said two things about Bayern’s approach – not only were they confident enough that only Wilshere (rather than Mikel Arteta or Ramsey) would provide a central playmaking threat, and could therefore afford to leave one midfielder protecting the defence, they saw Arsenal’s left side as weak. With Podolski staying high up and Vermaelen out of position, there were space to exploit – and Bayern did so consistently.

View attachment 318330
Average positions - both Bayern's midfielders played right-of-centre

As always, Kroos’ positioning throughout the game was fascinating. He started off playing very high, close to Mandzukic, but when Bayern went ahead he dropped into deeper positions, helping Bayern retain the ball and control the tempo of the game. At the risk of going over old ground, few midfielders possess his natural tactical understanding of matches, and he’s surely Bayern’s most important player.

Changes

Considering how obviously Arsenal were outclassed in the first half, it was a surprise Wenger waited until the hour mark before making a change. Arsenal had got a (rather fortunate) goal back and were now seeing more possession inside the Bayern half, but substitutes could have been introduced earlier.

In Wenger’s defence, his substitutes nearly had an immediate impact. Tomas Rosicky replaced Ramsey and played higher up the pitch, while Giroud’s introduction pushed Walcott right, and Cazorla went left in place of Podolski. Within a minute, Rosicky sprayed a pass out to Walcott, who crossed for Giroud, whose shot was straight at Manuel Neuer. Arsenal looked good when they tested Alaba – who is a promising left-back, and his great pace worked well against Walcott – but he can still take up some odd positions, too far away from his centre-backs.

Heynckes replaced Ribery with Robben, but a more significant change was Luiz Gustavo on for Toni Kroos, who sat deeper in that left-of-centre holding role Bayern didn’t have covered, and helped protect the lead.

Conclusion

Two key factors here – Bayern’s superior work without the ball, both in pressing and getting into a good shape quickly – and their dominance of the right, thanks to overlapping from Lahm and bursts forward from the central midfield zone. Kroos’ positioning was also important, if not decisive.

Arsenal will need to score three goals in Munich, which will be impossible if Bayern defend this effectively in the second leg.
 
Last edited:
CF is a flair modifer. Bayern as a side are not overly flamboyant, nor constantly trying to pull of the unexpected. They work intelligently within a given framework

As I understood it, CF reduces or increases the potential for players to deviate from the tactical instructions so if players are told to stand off but they are given a lot of CF, they will press if they think it is the correct option. Is that not correct?
 
As I understood it, CF reduces or increases the potential for players to deviate from the tactical instructions so if players are told to stand off but they are given a lot of CF, they will press if they think it is the correct option. Is that not correct?

I'd have to check with wwfan to be 100% on how it works defensively. Its impact is on the flair attribute, pretty sure that has no defensive off the ball impact, only when the player is on the ball.

Regardless, if it had a defensive impact they would be pressing when they wanted to, not necessarily because it was right. because you cant have players pressing when they individually wanted to, that is defensive discord and chaos.
 
I'd have to check with wwfan to be 100% on how it works defensively. Its impact is on the flair attribute, pretty sure that has no defensive off the ball impact, only when the player is on the ball.

Regardless, if it had a defensive impact they would be pressing when they wanted to, not necessarily because it was right. because you cant have players pressing when they individually wanted to, that is defensive discord and chaos.

Fair enough :)
 
You dont need to pull them out of position to create the shape in attack.

thanks bud, I think I know that though...

was just giving a physical representation of the formation as setting player instructions can get them to do what I want but am not going to post each players individual instruction and explain myself..
 
Hey guys, I was off for a while and it's nice to see so many posts!

From what I've seen of the central midfield, its sort of like a skewer, Martinez is pretty deep at DM and doesn't come forward much, Schweinsteiger also has a mainly defensive duty but he sits a little ahead and Kroos is generally in the hole. I experimented with a more asymmetric type, Martinez at DMCR, Schweini at MCL, Kroos at AMCR. The problem was that Kroos was more towards the right winger and so he played down all his balls towards the right and the left winger never came into play so it became a bit lopsided.

I also tried having playing a deep 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMs as suggested before with Schweinsteiger as a DM(s) and Martinez as a DM(d) to improve the defense. Since Kroos was still sitting in the hole, if anyone closed the 2 DMs down quickly, getting the ball forward to the attacking midfielders became hard. They had to try slightly longer passes and if they did a weak pass it was often intercepted and we were prone to counters. So I moved Schweinsteiger back to CM as a BBM and reduced his mentality to more defensive. This seems to be working for me as he performs two roles. One of a BWM(s) where he tries to win back possession before the opposition get to Martinez, and if he doesn't, Martinez is there as a cover. He also seems to get forward to the edge of the box when we need an extra man. Overall he's playing very well.

I'm not at my FM computer now, so I'll try to get a screenshot of the team instructions and role changes.

As far as the Mandzukic role goes(Gomez is now more or less second choice in real life for now) he is playing just as I want him to as an advanced forward. He's leading the line and when the ball is passed to him outside the box, he holds it and waits for someone to make a run past him before he releases it. He is the spearhead when we are in the box, and if only I could find a way to improve the crossing(I've tried almost all the settings) he would score more. So far the goals are pretty fairly spread between Mandzukic, Kroos, Robben and Ribery.(Robben has been outstanding but he kills the play at times by taking longshots, Muller doesn't play well because he doesn't have the dribbling skills to get past his man and create chances.)

We are creating enough chances, roughly 3 CCCs a match, but the all come during one portion of the game. Sometimes we make 3 CCCs within the first 30 minutes and for the next 45 minutes there is absolutely nothing. Sometimes we get a flurry of 4-5 chances in the last twenty minutes. It shouldn't really matter when they come, but I'd like it to be more evenly spread out.

Aside from the crossing, the most ANNOYING part that I'm not able to fix is the defending. I said last time out that the defending is fine and it was then, but now every game there are defensive errors from the centre backs. They misplace a pass or lose their man too easily, or do something stupid like that that makes me want bash my head against the wall. The CBs have been doing that for the last 4 games, regardless of whoever I've played. Even in my first match update I mentioned that the goal was due to a defensive error from Dante. Maybe its just been bad luck, I will give it some more games.(For opposition instructions, I set closing down to always and show to weaker foot for the strikers and AMCs, could that be the reason for all these errors?)

Possession has been good so far. At the start when it was not fluid it was only around 50%, but now as it is fully fluid I generally get about 60% possession every game.

Another thing I need help with is the defensive set pieces, I don't know how to set them up properly. I'm conceding goals from corners more often than I should be. Attacking set pieces are fine.

Edit: I'm also aware of the 2 defenders performing stopper-cover duties. I found a video of the Bayern - Dortmund cup game and it was very predominant when Bayern were passing around the back. Dante was much deeper than the other CB. I don't think I should put this aspect into the tactic for the sake of the offside trap(ever since the over the top balls started I find it almost mandatory to use the offside trap.) However since I'm struggling with the two defenders, it might be tested out.

I will try to post the current state of the tactic in a sort of a Beta testing, where 3 or 4 people will try it out and give me their results, as well as trying to tweak the weaker areas.
 
Last edited:
Bet you arsenal will be wishing for your advice Shiraz;) brilliant post. Couldn't have said it better myself
 
Hey guys, I was off for a while and it's nice to see so many posts!

From what I've seen of the central midfield, its sort of like a skewer, Martinez is pretty deep at DM and doesn't come forward much, Schweinsteiger also has a mainly defensive duty but he sits a little ahead and Kroos is generally in the hole. I experimented with a more asymmetric type, Martinez at DMCR, Schweini at MCL, Kroos at AMCR. The problem was that Kroos was more towards the right winger and so he played down all his balls towards the right and the left winger never came into play so it became a bit lopsided.

I also tried having playing a deep 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMs as suggested before with Schweinsteiger as a DM(s) and Martinez as a DM(d) to improve the defense. Since Kroos was still sitting in the hole, if anyone closed the 2 DMs down quickly, getting the ball forward to the attacking midfielders became hard. They had to try slightly longer passes and if they did a weak pass it was often intercepted and we were prone to counters. So I moved Schweinsteiger back to CM as a BBM and reduced his mentality to more defensive. This seems to be working for me as he performs two roles. One of a BWM(s) where he tries to win back possession before the opposition get to Martinez, and if he doesn't, Martinez is there as a cover. He also seems to get forward to the edge of the box when we need an extra man. Overall he's playing very well.

I'm not at my FM computer now, so I'll try to get a screenshot of the team instructions and role changes.

As far as the Mandzukic role goes(Gomez is now more or less second choice in real life for now) he is playing just as I want him to as an advanced forward. He's leading the line and when the ball is passed to him outside the box, he holds it and waits for someone to make a run past him before he releases it. He is the spearhead when we are in the box, and if only I could find a way to improve the crossing(I've tried almost all the settings) he would score more. So far the goals are pretty fairly spread between Mandzukic, Kroos, Robben and Ribery.(Robben has been outstanding but he kills the play at times by taking longshots, Muller doesn't play well because he doesn't have the dribbling skills to get past his man and create chances.)

We are creating enough chances, roughly 3 CCCs a match, but the all come during one portion of the game. Sometimes we make 3 CCCs within the first 30 minutes and for the next 45 minutes there is absolutely nothing. Sometimes we get a flurry of 4-5 chances in the last twenty minutes. It shouldn't really matter when they come, but I'd like it to be more evenly spread out.

Aside from the crossing, the most ANNOYING part that I'm not able to fix is the defending. I said last time out that the defending is fine and it was then, but now every game there are defensive errors from the centre backs. They misplace a pass or lose their man too easily, or do something stupid like that that makes me want bash my head against the wall. The CBs have been doing that for the last 4 games, regardless of whoever I've played. Even in my first match update I mentioned that the goal was due to a defensive error from Dante. Maybe its just been bad luck, I will give it some more games.(For opposition instructions, I set closing down to always and show to weaker foot for the strikers and AMCs, could that be the reason for all these errors?)

Possession has been good so far. At the start when it was not fluid it was only around 50%, but now as it is fully fluid I generally get about 60% possession every game.

Another thing I need help with is the defensive set pieces, I don't know how to set them up properly. I'm conceding goals from corners more often than I should be. Attacking set pieces are fine.

Edit: I'm also aware of the 2 defenders performing stopper-cover duties. I found a video of the Bayern - Dortmund cup game and it was very predominant when Bayern were passing around the back. Dante was much deeper than the other CB. I don't think I should put this aspect into the tactic for the sake of the offside trap(ever since the over the top balls started I find it almost mandatory to use the offside trap.) However since I'm struggling with the two defenders, it might be tested out.

I will try to post the current state of the tactic in a sort of a Beta testing, where 3 or 4 people will try it out and give me their results, as well as trying to tweak the weaker areas.

To improve the CB's defending, I would change the Marking to Default or Man.
 
Have implemented Bayern Munich's style of play into FM. Screenshots of formation, team instructions, results, etc. to be posted, soon.

Good to hear mate! Looking forward to seeing your work :D
 
A quick update:

I won the PL in my second season with Fulham. Not at all what I had planned and I worry its to soon. The expectations for next year might be more than my team can handle. We won with a total of 80 points which is very low. Probably should have taken us to 3-4 but the big teams struggled. We are by no means perfect or ready to do it again. Had to rely on loans and teen for a lot of matches. And some of the squad players are retirerring or leaving. So a massive task!

Tactic wise I have played the 4231 with BBM and Ifs. I use extra roaming and sometimes it really messes with the build-up. The players are running into dead ends and we are countered. Have been very lucky a lot of times. So experimented with DLP and Aps up front for a couple of games. Definitely a better build up and better but fewer chances. It’s not quite BM in my opinion though, so back to the original. I will consider less roaming because that might add some stability. All in all the tactic is OK, but not spectacular.

My biggest focus is still building the culture of the team. I look for players that would fit in with the others and y style. I believe this is very important. I´m looking for (as a lot of other managers J) determination, teamwork, technique, passing, decisions. These are the most important attributes. I have started considering language to. I think it is important in order to build the teamwork necessary for my philosophy. So maximum 2 players that don’t speak English a season.

The targets of this season:

Replace Brede Hangeland: hard job!
Get a great defensive MC: hope for Tiote
Integrate some of the youngsters: Frei, Kakaniklic and Kasami should be having some games this year
Get to second fase of the CL: We need the money

The biggest challenge will be fulfilling the expectations of euro qual. Everybody wants to beat the champions. It wil be a tough season...
 
Back
Top