Can somebody explain this to me please....

[Terak1]

Hi all first i will apologise for my english as it is not the best but i try

I have been playing a save with Nottingham Forest and whilst trying to perfect my tactic i have played a few games more than once to try slightly different defence setups to help keep clean sheets.

So far in my season it is going well i have played 20 won 16 drew 3 and lost 1 scoring 60 but conceding 26 goals with only 4 clean sheets.

While i was trying to perfect my defense as i love clean sheets with little tweaks i became frustrated and gave up. I then decided i would play my next game agaisnt Barnsley 5 times with the same players teamtalk and fluid tactic i had used all season to see the results.

I lost 5-3 won 3-0 ,3-2, 5-1, 2-1 All the games had different scorers and different amount of chances created roughly the same amount of possesion but very mixed results

I was wondering if someone could explain why that is to me the game seems to be a alot riding on luck at times at the moment.

Thanks

 

[mersk]

I have tried the same thing, with the same variation in results. However, I believe this is not due to simple luck, but rather the players' performance, along with the opposition players' performance. Of course, one could call this luck, but I don't really see the lack of realism in this.

If Manchester United and Arsenal were to play the 8-2 game over again, with the same players and the same tactics, chances are Arsenal wouldn't lose 8-2 again. Maybe they'd even win, or at least lose by a smaller margin. It's just the way things work, sometimes a couple of players will make a great performance, influenting the other players around them. Other times the same couple of players will have an awful day, with the opposite result.

It can also be the result of, for example, a small mistake by one player who loses the ball in a dangerous position, where the opposition counters and scores. Now you're suddenly 1-0 down, which could affect players with low determination. The way I see it, matches played by the same teams with the same players and the same tactics, can have numerous different outcomes. To simplify it, one can call it luck. But in all fairness, it can be due to alot of different reasons.

Your english is fine btw.

 

[Terak1]

I understand what you are saying about real life comparison and how every game is different but in the game I want to understand how to get the best out of my team. The game lets me to get me team ready for a game by press confrence, talking to players about form, tactics, tram talks for example and if all are the same I would have thought the first half of a game would be similar until half time when you have a team talk.

To me there seems to be an element of luck to the game which makes it so frustrating as you feel helpless at times to change a result and the satisfaction of winning isn't there as it was in other versions for me

 

[warnehead]

The reason why you are not getting the same result is due to the way it has been programmed it is all about variables. Each time you play the same game, same tactics, team talks etc, the outcome will be different as the variables will not be the same. Hence the new scorers, cards and performances etc.

A good example would be dice rolls. Rolling it 6 times, then another 6 times the outcome of the dice rolls is highly unlikely to be same again

 

[prescottrh]

becuase the game is ****, regardless of some boffins talking about variables the truth is probability decrees that the results should be fairly similiar, if as some suggest its like a dice roll (lol) then why bother doing anything in the game? Why bother with tactics or teamtalks or players even? The dice roll thing is the most stupid example ever. Its faceplam stupid.

 

[mersk]

becuase the game is ****, regardless of some boffins talking about variables the truth is probability decrees that the results should be fairly similiar, if as some suggest its like a dice roll (lol) then why bother doing anything in the game? Why bother with tactics or teamtalks or players even? The dice roll thing is the most stupid example ever. Its faceplam stupid.

If 22 players play the exact same way every time you play a match, just because the tactics and the opposition are the same - well, THAT would be a ****** game.

 

[TJD07]

becuase the game is ****, regardless of some boffins talking about variables the truth is probability decrees that the results should be fairly similiar, if as some suggest its like a dice roll (lol) then why bother doing anything in the game? Why bother with tactics or teamtalks or players even? The dice roll thing is the most stupid example ever. Its faceplam stupid.

If the game had no random element to it then what would be the point in playing? You'd simply find a tactic that put your team at an advantage and win, game after game after game without ever losing or coming close to doing so. That would be a facepalm stupid game.
The results shouldn't be fairly similar because if they were then the game is just predictable, once it's predictable you can stack the odds in your favor making it completely pointless to play.

The best you can do is put your team in a strong enough position so that when the dice is rolled you win more times than you don't.

 

[inspLL]

I have been playing a save with Nottingham Forest and whilst trying to perfect my tactic i have played a few games more than once to try slightly different defence setups to help keep clean sheets.

The thing about "perfecting tactic" is, that you have to deal with it during each game. You have to react to whats happening on the pitch, if you see explosive winger having party time on your right flank, it might be good idea to instruct your full back to play more defensively, maybe swap your more defensive midfielder toward that side, or maybe you have some rock solid defender on the bench, that could help you deal with him.
If you try to play the same match again, he might not be in as good form, or might take an early knock that will make him struggle in this game, and so he won't be a threat. There are a lot of possibilities, sometimes you might do perfectly well, till some winger make a total fluke goal, and after that your team will start to struggle, be it because of your time feeling down, or because of opposition playing in more defensive shape while winning.

 

[Sean Lambert]

The reason why you are not getting the same result is due to the way it has been programmed it is all about variables. Each time you play the same game, same tactics, team talks etc, the outcome will be different as the variables will not be the same. Hence the new scorers, cards and performances etc.

A good example would be dice rolls. Rolling it 6 times, then another 6 times the outcome of the dice rolls is highly unlikely to be same again

Not just unlikely it is actually impossible. The geometric probability density function equals zero for any single outcome in a Bernoulli trial... Hence why when you have a game that is programmed utilizing some sort of probability model (possibly the T-distribution although easily could be the normal model) the results of any two games can't be exactly the same. It isn't just that there are variables, it is that the variables change based on probability (which is designed to keep 10-0 games from happening...)

Anyways, because the game is unpredictable, it is also fun, but also frustrating.

 

[Terak1]

For me this element of luck and chance has taken the fun and feeling of achievement out of the game as i dont feel like i am in full control over my success or failures. I feel you can point your team in the right direction but cant get it to do exactly as u want each time you play a game as it is completely different. I was trying to improve my defense but with the same tactic team talk ect against the same opposition can bring different results (one game i lost 5-3 another i won 3-0) how do u know what is working and what isnt if u made changes. If i played the game where i won 3-0 i would have come on here uploaded the tactic and thought i cracked it but in reality the same tactic can also conceded 5 in a game where is the sense in that?
Also if u do an individual team talk to a player about his form the next game he can either have a shocker and need to be subbed or bag a hat trick in the first half it is complete luck of the draw. If u played the game where he had the shocker first u would not use that talk on that player again as u would of thought it didnt work when really u were just unlucky as i does work.
I can honestly not think of another game i have played where u have to be lucky to be successful can anyone think of any other computer games that your success or failures rely partly on luck and chance?

 

[TJD07]

The thing is, you can do everything exactly the same time after time on the same game but you'd never realistically expect the same results.
To get the same results the same things would need to happen in every game, the same player scoring at a certain time, the AI using the same team talk, the same player missing that tackle. It just doesn't happen and the same thing would never happen in real life.

No matter how a team is set up and what you say to them any little thing can change the game a huge amount, same thing happens in real life.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

becuase the game is ****, regardless of some boffins talking about variables the truth is probability decrees that the results should be fairly similiar, if as some suggest its like a dice roll (lol) then why bother doing anything in the game? Why bother with tactics or teamtalks or players even? The dice roll thing is the most stupid example ever. Its faceplam stupid.

Either you are à troll, have no understanding Of the game and real Football or dont see what we mean.

If your player has better tackling than the opponent, he still wont win that crucial tackling Every time, meaning that om some occassions, he Will loose it and the opposition scores etc etc.

Also, the variables change. If you go 1-0 up after 10 minutes, then the CPU Will react to this and change his approach. If he goes 1-0, then he Will react differently.
Even if the user are using the same tactic, the opponent isnt.

If one sees totally different results in à game, then its either that its à even game and/or that tactic fails to Control the events.

 

[Sean Lambert]

For me this element of luck and chance has taken the fun and feeling of achievement out of the game as i dont feel like i am in full control over my success or failures. I feel you can point your team in the right direction but cant get it to do exactly as u want each time you play a game as it is completely different. I was trying to improve my defense but with the same tactic team talk ect against the same opposition can bring different results (one game i lost 5-3 another i won 3-0) how do u know what is working and what isnt if u made changes. If i played the game where i won 3-0 i would have come on here uploaded the tactic and thought i cracked it but in reality the same tactic can also conceded 5 in a game where is the sense in that?
Also if u do an individual team talk to a player about his form the next game he can either have a shocker and need to be subbed or bag a hat trick in the first half it is complete luck of the draw. If u played the game where he had the shocker first u would not use that talk on that player again as u would of thought it didnt work when really u were just unlucky as i does work.
I can honestly not think of another game i have played where u have to be lucky to be successful can anyone think of any other computer games that your success or failures rely partly on luck and chance?

Play the original fallout or fallout 2. You're life depends on dice rolls where you either spawn where there's a bunch of baddies or a bunch of bunnies to farm xp... oh yeah and when you die the game ends... like back to main menu end...

 

[Sean Lambert]

What I am wondering is if anyone has looked at indicators for the opposing team's tactics. Like how can you guess what roles they have their guys set to? How can you tell how aggressive their tactics are? How do you know if they are baiting you with a counter tactic or just playing defensive? I think there must be some visible indicators and I'm looking in the tactics section of the forum for them... I will post a link here if I find any.

 

[stajnko]

why don't you just look on Full match instead of Key highlights and analyse the game by yourself. More fun, more real, more satisfaction...more time-consuming :[

 

[Terak1]

Either you are à troll, have no understanding Of the game and real Football or dont see what we mean.

If your player has better tackling than the opponent, he still wont win that crucial tackling Every time, meaning that om some occassions, he Will loose it and the opposition scores etc etc.

Also, the variables change. If you go 1-0 up after 10 minutes, then the CPU Will react to this and change his approach. If he goes 1-0, then he Will react differently.
Even if the user are using the same tactic, the opponent isnt.

If one sees totally different results in à game, then its either that its à even game and/or that tactic fails to Control the events.

I am getting totally different results when playing a game more than once and i dont see how it is either an even game or that the tactic fails to control events as this set of results show I lost 5-3, 3-0 won 3-0 ,3-2, 5-1, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0 (first time both goals in first half other time both in second half) the tactic does control events as when i won 3-0 5-1 and one of the 2-0 the opposition had around 3-5 shots 0 CCC's and i had around 60% possession and 15 shots and 5 CCC's but in the other games i wouldnt control the match as well as other times when all the variables i am given to control performances are the same.My tactic does 'work' so far in my season i have played 20 won 16 drew 3 and lost 1 scoring 60 but conceding 26 and am top of the championship with forest first season so its not as if my team is struggling. So how does that work? its still the same if you control both teams with completely fluid tactics that both teams have been getting results with and play each a game against each other you can set both teams with same teak talk press confrence match prep etc and the game will be different each time you replay it.

 

[TJD07]

I am getting totally different results when playing a game more than once and i dont see how it is either an even game or that the tactic fails to control events as this set of results show I lost 5-3, 3-0 won 3-0 ,3-2, 5-1, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0 (first time both goals in first half other time both in second half) the tactic does control events as when i won 3-0 5-1 and one of the 2-0 the opposition had around 3-5 shots 0 CCC's and i had around 60% possession and 15 shots and 5 CCC's but in the other games i wouldnt control the match as well as other times when all the variables i am given to control performances are the same.My tactic does 'work' so far in my season i have played 20 won 16 drew 3 and lost 1 scoring 60 but conceding 26 and am top of the championship with forest first season so its not as if my team is struggling. So how does that work? its still the same if you control both teams with completely fluid tactics that both teams have been getting results with and play each a game against each other you can set both teams with same teak talk press confrence match prep etc and the game will be different each time you replay it.

So if you set up two teams exactly the same with the same team talk and the same players they should always draw? That's retarded.
The games will be different each time just like they are in real life, they will generally follow the same sort of path though if you have the better/worse team.

 

[Terak1]

So if you set up two teams exactly the same with the same team talk and the same players they should always draw? That's retarded.
The games will be different each time just like they are in real life, they will generally follow the same sort of path though if you have the better/worse team.

No i would expect in the game given the variables i have to control my team performance if they were the same that the games would just follow a similar trend if replayed but they don't. I want to feel like im in total control of my success or failure in the game to give that sense of achievement but you could win lose or draw a game first time u play it but second time round with everything the same the result can be completely different it just seems to be luck which result you get first.
Which to me causes all kinds of problems with knowing what i am doing right and wrong in the game when i get good or bad results e.g was it a bad team talk, are my tactics rubbish, am i doing press conferences right

 

[inspLL]

If you want to see, if your tactic is good, first you have to know, what do you want player to do on the pitch. Then just watch the game in full, and you'll see if everything is working the way you want, you can see if the goal you lost, was because of your defender mistake, losing ball in the middle, or maybe your defender close down too much making too a lot of space for players coming from deeper positions. Watch few games like that, and tweak things that are not working the way you want them to.

As for entire luck thing, in football there is always some degree of luck, and you can't fully eliminate it, that's why in cups there are so many surprises, but in the long run, as in league games, results will be more or less accurate. As you said, even tough it seems for you that luck plays great role in game, you're still first in championship after 20 games.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I am getting totally different results when playing a game more than once and i dont see how it is either an even game or that the tactic fails to control events as this set of results show I lost 5-3, 3-0 won 3-0 ,3-2, 5-1, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0 (first time both goals in first half other time both in second half) the tactic does control events as when i won 3-0 5-1 and one of the 2-0 the opposition had around 3-5 shots 0 CCC's and i had around 60% possession and 15 shots and 5 CCC's but in the other games i wouldnt control the match as well as other times when all the variables i am given to control performances are the same.My tactic does 'work' so far i
n my season i have played 20 won 16 drew 3 and lost 1 scoring 60 but conceding 26 and am top of the championship with forest first season so its not as if my team is struggling. So how does that work? its still the same if you control both teams with completely fluid tactics that both teams have been getting results with and play each a game against each other you can set both teams with same teak talk press confrence match prep etc and the game will be different each time you replay it.

Firstly, these results are actually rather similair, especially i using à tactic that is slightly more expressive and/or attacking so it DOES seem that you are using à tactic that is using your players really well. But being in Control Of events also includes making small chances all the time, just like your AI opponent does. If some Of your players starts Of poor and get anxious and nervous whilst some o the opponents seem really confident, then there is à big chance that this scenario Will continue through out the game.

By the looks Of it, you are in Control Of most things but when things dont go your way, you have no plan B and C, something that all managers have ( might nog be à good plan though).

So My question is, when you fail to score despite having possession and chances, how do you react to the fact that your players seems to be frustrasted and the opponents looks confident ?

Look at last weeks game between Arsenal - Swansea. Would you say that the result would have been different if one Of the Swansea defenders har made à defensive error in the 5th minute and Arsenal had scored from it? Would Swansea still have won with 2 goals if Arsenal har equalised from à corner in the 89th minute. Would Swansea had won 2-0 if Jenkinson had not been tired ànd made à poor call ?

To be able to correct things on the pitch, its crucial to watch atleast Extended highlights and pause every now and then to look at the match stats.