Counter tactic with wingers for new season

[Hamstert]

Hello FM-users,

The first season I played with Roda JC, it is a club in the Dutch Eredivisie who needs to prevent relegation. This went well, we ended on fifth place. We had a couple of players let go and we bought new replacements. (in my opinion better alternatives). We aim for place 5-11 this season.

We have wingers who are higher in pace/dribbling/acceleration.
- My first striker is above average in heading, first touch, determination and just average in pace/acceleration.
- My second striker is above average in pace/acceleration/work rate and average in first touch.
- My defence is slow but the best in heading and strenght.
- My midfield is on average at almost everything. Only Passing is a little above average and teamwork/tackling is above.

Overall in the team report tackling, crossing, work rate, heading and teamwork are above average.

My intention is to lean on our defenders and we want to get out very quickly with the wingers. But I am doubting if it is a good tactic because we will also be sometimes the favorite. Plus, what do we do when we are 1-0 behind? Could you give me some tips with my tactic to tweak it better?

 

[Hamstert]

 

[Bigpapa42]

First thing I want to ask, are you wanting to play on the counter because you want to create scoring chances on counter-attacks? Or because you want to play a less risky style? There is a difference there. And its a notable one. In FM16 and 17, a counter-attack is a specific event triggered when you win back the ball and the opposition is stretched. If you want to use those counter-attacks to create your scoring chances, you need to set up in a way that maximizes those opportunities. and you currently aren't. But Mentality can also be looked at as the amount of risk you want your team to play with, and playing Counter just means you dont' want them taking too many risks. If that's the case, your formation is less of a concern.

You have quite a few TIs. I wont' say too many, but I try to minimize them for the most part.

 

[Hamstert]

I want to play counter football because I have a slow defence. I think when I play more forward I will be defeated because my slow defence. They are good in headings, but the most goals i concede are coming from a counter attack over the wingers.

I want to exploit my wingers speed/pace and crossings, with a counter attack I thought i could do best. I do not want to create only 1 or 2 changes a game, but if we attack I want to do it quick, over the wingers.

Are there some instructions which are not productive or which I could remove?

 

[WJ]

The question is, what do you want to do when a counter attack isn't on?

 

[Bigpapa42]

Well if the intent is trigger the actual counter-attack events, it doesn't really make sense to use a formation like that. You have only 4 players who are defending at all times, and the two CMs will at times. But that leaves 4 players who don't add anything to your defending. Given that the whole idea is to draw the opposition out and have plenty of players back, that doesn't work. At the very least, I would pull the AM back into the CM strata. A DM is even better. My preference is to have the two wingers as MR and ML rather than AMR and AML as they help more defensively, but there is upside of having them a bit further forward as they start a bit higher up when a counter is triggered.

If you haven't already done so, I would definitely recommended reading Cleon's Art of the Counter thread from FM16. The concepts still apply.

My thoughts on the TIs... Remembering that the counter attack event itself will happen and ignore all your TIs.... so you are setting TIs and PIs for when you don't have a counter attack situation....

-having the defenders clear the ball to the flanks runs a bit counter to the idea of wanting them to counter attack. Hacking a long ball that a winger or forward might get onto isn't the same as launching an intentional counter attack at pace. It will actually prevent some from happening.
-why work the ball into the box? And especially why that with a higher tempo?
-why Pass into Space
-given the quality of players that Roda have to start with, I have a hard time imagining that they have the Off the Ball, Decisions, and Composure to really make Passing Into Space and higher tempo work effectively. Do you find you turn the ball over a lot? That combo is probably part of the cause.
-why Be More Disciplined? You are using a Structured system with a lot of conservative player roles... were you having issues with players roaming out of Position? If not, it doesn't really need to be there.

Team Instructions are modifiers. They tweak the base tactic. But don't add them just because you think "Oh, hey, that sounds good", without knowing if you are actually solving an issue that the base tactic presents. Otherwise, adding them can just create other problems for no real reason.

 

[Hamstert]

sp Fuhrkamp

That is a good question. In an ideal world we will waiting for the opponent to come a little closer to our defensive midfield and we will put pressure on them and regain possession. If we just will wait for a mistake it could take ages or go wrong.

But is this realistic?

 

[WJ]

That is a good question. In an ideal world we will waiting for the opponent to come a little closer to our defensive midfield and we will put pressure on them and regain possession. If we just will wait for a mistake it could take ages or go wrong.

But is this realistic?

That doesn't answer the question. What do you actually do when you have possession but there isn't a counter attack on? IE - the opposition is set defensively and outnumber you.

Your Team Instructions affect that. Since you have a top heavy formation, how are you drawing opposition players in? If you clear the ball immediately to the flanks, how are you going to create a counter, since you don't have numbers forward?

Currently, you're not counter attacking. You're just direct. All. the. time. Whether a counter attack is actually on or not. You're immediately clearing the ball to the flanks. Who's actually there to receive it?

 

[Igneos79]

Counter mentality requires a higher line, in order to effectively press the opposition. So if you have slow defenders, this approach would be extremely risky against fast strikers.

Fluid 4231 wide, counter, DLFs, 2Wa, AMa, 2CMd, 2CDd, 2FBs, SKs and team instructions: slightly higher tempo, slightly wider, push slightly up, offside trap, close down slightly more, more direct passing, be more disciplined and I'm not really sure if low or float crosses.

 

[Hamstert]

Well if the intent is trigger the actual counter-attack events, it doesn't really make sense to use a formation like that. You have only 4 players who are defending at all times, and the two CMs will at times. But that leaves 4 players who don't add anything to your defending. Given that the whole idea is to draw the opposition out and have plenty of players back, that doesn't work. At the very least, I would pull the AM back into the CM strata. A DM is even better. My preference is to have the two wingers as MR and ML rather than AMR and AML as they help more defensively, but there is upside of having them a bit further forward as they start a bit higher up when a counter is triggered.

The problem is that our AMR/AML/AMC are all very important players. I really want to use them. So maybe I should settle for another strategy? I just want to use the strenght of the pace/accelleration of my wingers and beware of my slow defence.

If you haven't already done so, I would definitely recommended reading Cleon's Art of the Counter thread from FM16. The concepts still apply.

Will do!

My thoughts on the TIs... Remembering that the counter attack event itself will happen and ignore all your TIs.... so you are setting TIs and PIs for when you don't have a counter attack situation....

-having the defenders clear the ball to the flanks runs a bit counter to the idea of wanting them to counter attack. Hacking a long ball that a winger or forward might get onto isn't the same as launching an intentional counter attack at pace. It will actually prevent some from happening.
-why work the ball into the box? And especially why that with a higher tempo?
-why Pass into Space
-given the quality of players that Roda have to start with, I have a hard time imagining that they have the Off the Ball, Decisions, and Composure to really make Passing Into Space and higher tempo work effectively. Do you find you turn the ball over a lot? That combo is probably part of the cause.
-why Be More Disciplined? You are using a Structured system with a lot of conservative player roles... were you having issues with players roaming out of Position? If not, it doesn't really need to be there.

Team Instructions are modifiers. They tweak the base tactic. But don't add them just because you think "Oh, hey, that sounds good", without knowing if you are actually solving an issue that the base tactic presents. Otherwise, adding them can just create other problems for no real reason.

That sounds very good, I did not really set any specific PIs only the standard roles which are belonging to the selected roles.

I thought the TI needs to be the standard for the tactic. I will try to adjust somethings there.

 

[WJ]

Counter mentality requires a higher line, in order to effectively press the opposition. So if you have slow defenders, this approach would be extremely risky against fast strikers.

Fluid 4231 wide, counter, DLFs, 2Wa, AMa, 2CMd, 2CDd, 2FBs, SKs and team instructions: slightly higher tempo, slightly wider, push slightly up, offside trap, close down slightly more, more direct passing, be more disciplined and I'm not really sure if low or float crosses.

It doesn't require a higher line. In fact, it's the opposite. Counter attacking relies on drawing the opposition in TO counter attack. You're countering an attack. It's in the name. You're not going to counter attack with a top heavy formation, that many attack duties and direct instructions. You're going to be direct. There's a difference.

 

[Hamstert]

That doesn't answer the question. What do you actually do when you have possession but there isn't a counter attack on? IE - the opposition is set defensively and outnumber you.

Your Team Instructions affect that. Since you have a top heavy formation, how are you drawing opposition players in? If you clear the ball immediately to the flanks, how are you going to create a counter, since you don't have numbers forward?

Currently, you're not counter attacking. You're just direct. All. the. time. Whether a counter attack is actually on or not. You're immediately clearing the ball to the flanks. Who's actually there to receive it?

Yes you are right. I get often messages from my Asssitent that we are giving the ball too soon away. Sometimes even that the lines between defense and midfield is too large. I notice that my two CMs often are running after the ball outnumbered when we are positioned in the box to defense.

Counter mentality requires a higher line, in order to effectively press the opposition. So if you have slow defenders, this approach would be extremely risky against fast strikers.

Fluid 4231 wide, counter, DLFs, 2Wa, AMa, 2CMd, 2CDd, 2FBs, SKs and team instructions: slightly higher tempo, slightly wider, push slightly up, offside trap, close down slightly more, more direct passing, be more disciplined and I'm not really sure if low or float crosses.

that is indeed not the best idea then, because I already concede most of my goals because we do not have the fastest defense.

It doesn't require a higher line. In fact, it's the opposite. Counter attacking relies on drawing the opposition in TO counter attack. You're countering an attack. It's in the name. You're not going to counter attack with a top heavy formation, that many attack duties and direct instructions. You're going to be direct. There's a difference.

True, but I do not want to have 40% ball posession get 10 shots on target from my opponent and I got 2 shots on target and win 1-2. Because I think in the end I will get too much pressure on my defense.

 

[maxchaplin55]

I'm not saying play this way, play whatever way suits you, but just a suggestion/idea - I may have got lucky or whatever but one time I made a counter attacking tactic with a lower league side a couple years back, cant remember who, but I kept it fairly simple, dropped deep, played narrow, and retained possession. What happened was, the opposition would get frustrated at not having the ball, aggressively close me down, which would leave gaps for me to counter.

 

[WJ]

You need to set up and keep in mind what you do with the ball when a counter attack isn't on. If you draw the opposition in and work it forward, a counter attack will automatically trigger and you'll automatically be direct and attacking during that counter attack. The key is triggering it.

 

[Igneos79]

It doesn't require a higher line. In fact, it's the opposite. Counter attacking relies on drawing the opposition in TO counter attack. You're countering an attack. It's in the name. You're not going to counter attack with a top heavy formation, that many attack duties and direct instructions. You're going to be direct. There's a difference.

You're wrong. With counter mentality you are already somewhat deep. With push higher up they will defend just outside the box. And besides, you need to press to regain possession, it's not meant for keeping it. And if you're going to press, you will tire your players out, so you need to squeeze space by pushing up, or you wont make it, especially with high tempo, to the end of the match.

 

[WJ]

You're wrong. With counter mentality you are already somewhat deep. With push higher up they will defend just outside the box. And besides, you need to press to regain possession, it's not meant for keeping it. And if you're going to press, you will tire your players out, so you need to squeeze space by pushing up, or you wont make it, especially with high tempo, to the end of the match.

You won't draw opposition in if you press. It's quite obvious. Especially not with a 4231.

 

[Igneos79]

You won't draw opposition in if you press. It's quite obvious. Especially not with a 4231.

It's not meant for soaking up pressure. You need 50% possesion. If you stand off, you will just end up looking like a punching bag. Does this formation look good for high pressing? I think so.

 

[maxchaplin55]

It's not meant for soaking up pressure. You need 50% possesion. If you stand off, you will just end up looking like a punching bag. Does this formation look good for high pressing? I think so.

*cough* Leicester City

 

[WJ]

It's not meant for soaking up pressure. You need 50% possesion. If you stand off, you will just end up looking like a punching bag.

Where do you guess these things from? The entire point of counter attacking is to counter an attack. It's in the name. Draw the opposition in, who over-commits, and the counter attack. Ask Mourinho. He does it with less than 50%. He's done it with less than 30%.

 

[maxchaplin55]

"The aim of this type of football is to catch the opponent on the "break". When they give away possession in midfield or attack, opposing players will tend to be further up the field than usual and may not be able to quickly adjust to a defensive mindset."