Counter tactic with wingers for new season

[Igneos79]

Where do you guess these things from? The entire point of counter attacking is to counter an attack. It's in the name. Draw the opposition in, who over-commits, and the counter attack. Ask Mourinho. He does it with less than 50%. He's done it with less than 30%.

I don't guess anything. I play. You're interpreting football wrong. If you soak up pressure, and then kick the ball from defence panickly, you wont do anything else except getting attacked again.

 

[WJ]

I don't guess anything. I play. You're interpreting football wrong. If you soak up pressure, and then kick the ball from defence panickly, you wont do anything else except getting attacked again.

Start reading my posts then. I've specifically mentioned working the ball forward and specifically NOT clearing it.

 

[Igneos79]

Start reading my posts then. I've specifically mentioned working the ball forward and specifically NOT clearing it.

So, your idea of a quick counter is by slowly playing out of defence while they reorganize? Don't make me laugh. Ball needs to be won higher.

 

[WJ]

So, your idea of a quick counter is by slowly playing out of defence while they reorganize? Don't make me laugh.

Stop being stupidly obtuse. There's middle ground between SLOWLY working it forward and CLEARING it. I mentioned neither. It's annoying that you jump to conclusions that was never posted.

The idea of the defaults in a Counter Mentality is to be SLIGHTLY direct at the back. Not pass it out. Not clearing it. Just a simple get it to the midfield. I can't spell it out more. It's what teams IRL do as well, if you watched real football.

 

[Bigpapa42]

With regard to the AM and the two wingers.... why can't they play in the MC strata? Even if they aren't rated for that spot, they can be retrained. Think of it this way - by having all 3 of those in the AM strata, they are adding almost nothing defensively. By moving them back, they can still add plenty to attack but they will help out more defensively. Even if they don't have the skills to be really helpful defensively, they are another body back. I currently use a 4-1-4-1 DM with a high press and both my wingers and one of my CMs are "naturally" AML/R and AM, but they work fine.

TIs are necessary to shape the tactic for certain types of play. For pressing, for example. But generally speaking, you need to understand how the tactic functions without all the modifiers. You're tweaking without knowing what you are needing to tweak otherwise. Like WJ says, you need to consider how you want to play if you have the ball. Maxchaplin offers a nice way to do it. But you generally want to play deep, with numbers back, soaking up pressure. Deeper line, as many players back as possible. With slow defenders, I would probably look to have at least one player in the DM spot to help cover for their lack of pace.

 

[Igneos79]

You need to realise that guardiola loses matches. And he ceirtanly knows more about football then you and me. Pressing high is what osram did with bayern in 2012/13, and he smashed everything. So if you want to learn proper football, please learn from someone who doesn't lose matches.

 

[Igneos79]

Look, if fluid is about counter, then structured is about control. How much space would you leave behind if you played a higher line with control, and would that be wise? Of course not. So logically, you push up with counter. Simple math.

 

[maxchaplin55]

You need to realise that guardiola loses matches. And he ceirtanly knows more about football then you and me. Pressing high is what osram did with bayern in 2012/13, and he smashed everything. So if you want to learn proper football, please learn from someone who doesn't lose matches.

Igneos, what the Team Instructions are effecting when your Mentality is on Counter, is when you have the ball but AREN'T counter attacking. Teams that counter attack don't counter attack the full 90 minutes, because there isn't always the opportunity to. These opportunities usually arise when the opposition is attacking you with the ball and they lose it, or if you're patiently moving the ball around, and the opposition aggressively closes you down and leaves gaps - IN WHICH CASE, BY DEFAULT, you're team will look to exploit by counter attacking!

 

[Igneos79]

Igneos, what the Team Instructions are effecting when your Mentality is on Counter, is when you have the ball but AREN'T counter attacking. Teams that counter attack don't counter attack the full 90 minutes, because there isn't always the opportunity to. These opportunities usually arise when the opposition is attacking you with the ball and they lose it, or if you're patiently moving the ball around, and the opposition aggressively closes you down and leaves gaps - IN WHICH CASE, BY DEFAULT, you're team will look to exploit by counter attacking!

wrong...you need to force the issue, not wait for it to happen...and you stand a lot better chance of scoring by being closer to their goal when you nick the ball...osrams bayern relentlessy counter attacked...

 

[maxchaplin55]

wrong...you need to force the issue, not wait for it to happen...and you stand a lot better chance of scoring by being closer to their goal when you nick the ball...osrams bayern relentlessy counter attacked...

What you are describing here is a high press? Which is attacking football. I promise you.

 

[Igneos79]

What you are describing here is a high press? Which is attacking football. I promise you.

Wrong again. You play attack when you expect to dominate possession, not when you need to fight for it. So, attack will only work if you are a great club and opponent is weak. That's why guardiola lost the other day. And he will continue to lose against countering teams, that play proper counter.

 

[maxchaplin55]

Wrong again. You play attack when you expect to dominate possession, not when you need to fight for it. So, attack will only work if you are a great club and opponent is weak. That's why guardiola lost the other day.

What on earth? Possession football is possession football - it can be offensive, defensive, counter attacking.
Just because a manager wants his team to attack, does not mean he wants his team to keep the ball. In fact, depending on whether he has a possession philosophy, if a manager really wants to attack hard, he will ask his players to adopt a fast tempo, direct game, with lots of high risk passes - which definitely ISN'T possession football.

I don't know how much football you watch, but I suggest you take a few moments to do a bit of research or to just watch some actual football.

 

[WJ]

wrong...you need to force the issue, not wait for it to happen...and you stand a lot better chance of scoring by being closer to their goal when you nick the ball...osrams bayern relentlessy counter attacked...

Which isn't a Counter Mentality. You can achieve that sort of thing with a Control Mentality. Still, it needs a deeper formation and not a top heavy one.

 

[maxchaplin55]

Which isn't a Counter Mentality. You can achieve that sort of thing with a Control Mentality. Still, it needs a deeper formation and not a top heavy one.

Starting to think he may be joking...

 

[Igneos79]

If you play high tempo with short passes, you wont achieve possession, as you will simply lose the ball to much and make players act hasty. That's why you play short passes with low tempo structured control. You play retain possesion with highly structured attack. Highly structured formation is basically asymmetric, which features maximum number of triangles, needed to retain possesion. Structured is like 4123dmwide, with slightly less triangles, so fits short passing. The whole concept needs to fit like lego puzzles or it wont work as intended. Very fluid defensive tactic is the best there is, but it requires very high tempo, so you need to use it only for important matches, as players cant keep up the tempo like that for whole season. Fluid counter is doable for the whole season, with high tempo and should be aimed for by any club, but you need pacey defenders. Guardiolas short passing days are almost over and done with, as soon as managers realise the proper way.

 

[WJ]

That has nothing to do with the topic. The OP wants to be deep as the defence isn't fast, so he has the right basic idea, just not quite how to implement it.