Defence issues...

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Fenris47

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Deleted (edited) my original post as it was pointless, pretty much like trying to gain pleasure from playing FM with an eternally broken me. F@ck you SI, you stole my youth. lol
 
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What a constructive OP. Just because you are struggling at the game doesn't mean the ME is broken.
 
If the games is flawed and buggy, how can it not be broken?

I've watched non league / semi - professional's recreate the Fa Cup semi final goal by Giggs against me, now I wasn't happy in 1999, I'm even less impressed in 2014. I appreciate you will lose, concede and whatever else in your career on fm, but it falls short of any realistic merit in my opinion. I just would have thought that by now, things would be working better - I mean c'mon the shoots long ppm is still any issue, albeit not as much as last year. But, should I have to sell Carzola simply because I can't frigging stop him shooting long? No, I shouldn't.

Moyes' Man united come to the emirates and wipe the floor with me, are they sitting back - no, Moyes is in full out direct attack. And no matter what tactic or game plan I go in with I get beat. But not just beat they dominate the f@ck out of me, I'm not f@cking stupid. I know what needs to be done,but trying to implement that in a broken me is impossible. Should Arsenal be countering at home? No, it's bullsh1t. They don't even play that away, hence the Liverpool and Chelsea results this year. Unlike Wenger I have a plan b, but nothing works. And if the AI needs a goal, it gets one in my opinion. My defense is a joke, I watched all four of my defenders pull of their men and everyone of them went for the right winger with the ball, all the other teams players were left wide open in the box. 3 of them in a 3 on 1 with the keeper around the 6 yard box and don't get me started on my Goalkeeper, we'll be here all day.

Si should provide an account manager / tutor to everyone who buys this game. You read guides that give contradictory information and in them they explain that the terms they use in Fm are 'plastic' and don't mean what they do or have hidden affect like 'exploit flanks' instruction. I just want a computer game that I can relax and enjoy in my free time, if I wanted to f@cking manage a football team, that's what I'd go and do. The old cm series had hours of enjoyment in it and Fm for me as just been torture, rewards are short lived because it's too hard.

I've lost the will to go on, yet I'm addicted to misery it brings I guess, like a **** marriage.

On a final note, if anyone has any tips for a bullshit, leaky defense I'm still interested in hearing them. (unbelievable)
 
Fenris47 said:
If the games is flawed and buggy, how can it not be broken?
Flawed how? Admittedly it had loads of bugs when it was first released (which is disgusting that any developer would release such a mess) but since have been patched. Of course it still has bugs but they are being worked on, every game will have bugs I am afraid.

I've watched non league / semi - professional's recreate the Fa Cup semi final goal by Giggs against me, now I wasn't happy in 1999, I'm even less impressed in 2014. I appreciate you will lose, concede and whatever else in your career on fm, but it falls short of any realistic merit in my opinion. I just would have thought that by now, things would be working better - I mean c'mon the shoots long ppm is still any issue, albeit not as much as last year. But, should I have to sell Carzola simply because I can't frigging stop him shooting long? No, I shouldn't.

If you are playing non-league and non-league sides are scoring goals like that against you what do you expect? Your defenders are ****. Try and close them down a little more, tackle them harder. Nearly every goal is preventable. I agree with you on the long shot PPM. It is unrealistic imo, I never see it happen often in football so it should be removed. But surely Carzola can unlearn it? Forgive my ignorance, I have never been Arsenal this version or had Santi for that matter.

Moyes' Man united come to the emirates and wipe the floor with me, are they sitting back - no, Moyes is in full out direct attack. And no matter what tactic or game plan I go in with I get beat. But not just beat they dominate the f@ck out of me, I'm not f@cking stupid. I know what needs to be done,but trying to implement that in a broken me is impossible. Should Arsenal be countering at home? No, it's bullsh1t. They don't even play that away, hence the Liverpool and Chelsea results this year. Unlike Wenger I have a plan b, but nothing works. And if the AI needs a goal, it gets one in my opinion. My defense is a joke, I watched all four of my defenders pull of their men and everyone of them went for the right winger with the ball, all the other teams players were left wide open in the box. 3 of them in a 3 on 1 with the keeper around the 6 yard box and don't get me started on my Goalkeeper, we'll be here all day.
I agree with this. Moyes' United are overrated and hard to beat. They play an intense pressing and direct game which is hard to defend against. Thankfully SI are looking into the issues with the overpowered 4-2-3-1

Si should provide an account manager / tutor to everyone who buys this game. You read guides that give contradictory information and in them they explain that the terms they use in Fm are 'plastic' and don't mean what they do or have hidden affect like 'exploit flanks' instruction. I just want a computer game that I can relax and enjoy in my free time, if I wanted to f@cking manage a football team, that's what I'd go and do. The old cm series had hours of enjoyment in it and Fm for me as just been torture, rewards are short lived because it's too hard.

​It's not contradictory, it is just peoples opinion. The only guide that should be used as a rule of thumb is the Twelve Step Guide which I will link if you have not read it. Others as I've said is just peoples different takes on the game, decide which you believe the most and try and implement. This game is plastic with its descriptions I will admit it, counter doesn't counter and control doesn't control and the shouts, my word they are vague. BUT this is a complaint which hopefully will be sorted for next year (I know I keep saying this but at least SI acknowledge the issues) If you want an easier game then play FM Classic, it has the old CM feeling to it if you haven't given it a go I would 100% recommend it.
I've lost the will to go on, yet I'm addicted to misery it brings I guess, like a **** marriage.

Stop playing it then.
On a final note, if anyone has any tips for a bullshit, leaky defense I'm still interested in hearing them. (unbelievable)

Post your tactic(s) and I will happily give you advice. This is a rant so don't expect anyone to give you advice if you haven't given any information.
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Firstly I appreciate your response.

I acknowledge it was a pointless, unhelpful rant. Borne purely out of frustration and as such I apologise for the negativity therein

But, let me make this last attack on the ME before I move on. The defending is bugged, there are bugs. You admit this yourself, I find it hard to stomach and tend to spit my dummy out. As I do with most things, I'm not patient. I've won the premier league with Arsenal just last week, so I can do it, but I get ocd on the unbelievable mistakes etc that happen. I played earlier and beat United, using the denmark of the pairs and combos guide. So I'm not hopeless, just frustrated at pro footballers acting like amateurs and vice versa.

I find games to be a real battle, often needing to overload weaker opponents at the end of the game to grind out a result and needless to say, my team always bottle it in the last few games of the season.

Which I realise is very realistic, I just don't know how to combat it. Hence why not labeling stuff right causing issues.
Anyway, that said, the constructive side of my response.

My defenders are Mertersacker and Koscielny, I bought Lars Bender and sit him as cm d or ball winner with a dpl next to him. Yet a non league side, like sutton utd in a pre season did the Giggs's on me.

The Carzola thing, you can't untrain him. Well at least I tried several times on 13, Meulensteen is my shooting coach on this years and he didn't think he could achieve it, which was the same response last year. So I sell Carzola along with the over paid wasters, Walcott and Podolski. (Who I love in real life, just **** on FM for me.)

To be fair, I probably expect too much. I've read the the twelve steps and I foudn all of these guides very insightful and they have helped me, I'm not saying that.

I guess I just want someone to acknowledge there is a bug with defence or at least tell me how you set up your back four, I've seen some choosing closing down more, personally I'd like less, but it's greyed out so I assume that it already low. (I miss the sliders.) lol

I tried tight marking on both cb's and think it helped, but I got massacred by Bayern in the champions league. 6-1 on agg. ON reflection I think that might have been the issue on that day.

I tried FMC on 13 and didn't like it but then again i did take me 100 + hours to get a grip on 13.

Is it easier, I think I'd like that.
(I'm obviously ****)
 
No matter what you do mate you wont get solid. AI will find a way to break you. (The problem is though that it will find a **** way. A CCC created from a throw in or a corner etc). Its a change of philosophy from SI. They dont like super tactics that break ME. They want you to adapt to different situations in every match using ALL the tools you have. Philosophies, Match Preparations, Scouting, OIs, Specific Mark, Press Conferances, Team Talks.

I post them my squad in their guide topics to give me guidance of a tactic for when i am favorite and one for when i am underdog. Their answer was to tell them how my (every time) opponent plays. That there cant be ONE tactic. Ore TWO or THREE.

Respected (really) but this will be the end for me in FM. I will leave all those football geniouses with tons of time to play the game the way they want. In every version of FM (even in this year first patches) there was tactics that emulate "not conceeding" football. This is over. And they dont have a problem to admit it.
 
Djibril Cisse said:
No matter what you do mate you wont get solid. AI will find a way to break you. (The problem is though that it will find a **** way. A CCC created from a throw in or a corner etc). Its a change of philosophy from SI. They dont like super tactics that break ME. They want you to adapt to different situations in every match using ALL the tools you have. Philosophies, Match Preparations, Scouting, OIs, Specific Mark, Press Conferances, Team Talks.

Holy **** you are actually complaining that a game developer wants its consumer to actually use the tools given to them to win matches instead of exploiting flaws in the ME. I am sorry but that is single handedly the most ridiculous post I've seen directed at SI. FM is not THAT hard. I have just taken Shrewsbury to the Championship (and now sitting comfortably 9th after 34 games despite being predicted to finish 21st in L1 and 24th in CH) in my first season fairly easily. Stuck to the same formation and roles (altered shouts of course depending on the situation) and I am having a blast with it. A lot of people just ditch a tactic after 5 games and expect the new one to work.
I post them my squad in their guide topics to give me guidance of a tactic for when i am favorite and one for when i am underdog. Their answer was to tell them how my (every time) opponent plays. That there cant be ONE tactic. Ore TWO or THREE.

I don't understand this.
Respected (really) but this will be the end for me in FM. I will leave all those football geniouses with tons of time to play the game the way they want. In every version of FM (even in this year first patches) there was tactics that emulate "not conceeding" football. This is over. And they dont have a problem to admit it.
Shame then. Also no offence but **** off with the "football geniuses ****. I mean I don't normally try to offend people over stupid things but that is just idiocy of the highest order. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE AN EXPERT IN FOOTBALL TO PLAY THIS GAME. Making a logical tactic is not hard, of course it is trail and error most saves but it isn't difficult to grasp the basics of the game. I see too many people just plug in and play then regurgitate the same **** "Oh this ME is broken" "SI have programmed you do lose certain games" when it doesn't work because you are Walsall not ******* Barcelona, stop trying to play "tika taka" when you do not have Messi, Xavi, Busquets etc. Plus I don't have tons of time on my hands but still am successful at this game, what is your point? Now I don't want to come across elitist because I am semi-successful at this game and have no trouble in helpng people who are struggling (OP I will answer your post later when I time) but you just came across bitter that SI have made this game more realistic and people have adapted to it and had fun with the game, I mean how can this game be broken if plenty of people have had consistent success with it? I am not saying it doesn't have its faults but it certainly isn't broken to the point where it is rendered unplayable. Again, I didn't mean to offend you but if you act like a **** expect something back.
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I understand your anger Bluebird, but Cisse is only saying stuff I've thought myself. I swear every year that I won't play it again, but I always come back.

I'm been playing this for 18 years, I got addicted and now, the thing I loved about it I can no longer do. Which was dominate, I admit that I don't really want that back as such, but I struggle so much with defence that I hate playing it. I've spent about 180 hours on the 2014, either the demo or main game, because I waited till april before buying it) and so far I've completed one season (albeit I won the league) and spent the majority of time in pre season trying to tighten up the defence before I get started. A frustrating venture, one of my own making I realise.

I worked out that I've spent a full year of my life playing football manager (cm), and lately that's been all pre season. My biggest example is fm 2011, according to steam I played 1,500 hrs. Now I can tell you 1000 of those was pre season and the rest was a wonderful 20 years career I had. Now, that game had a ME breaker in it. How am I suppose to play this thing?

What team or individual instructions would you give to Arsenal's back four? Does anyone use any? Or do I need to lower closing down on my defence midfielder? My problem is, I don't want to sit here for another 100 hours testing it. I want the game to do what it says and it doesn't bluebird. You sound like your doing okay on it.

I've looked at other peoples tactics and there is no right or wrong way it seems, but with massive testing I won't know. I just want some pointers, anything.

How do you stop teams getting into your box, an High line? I would have thought deeper myself, see I just feel lost with it all. I might as well go and get a coaching qualification and manage a real team, it's gotta be easier.

I think I'm mad because, I never had trouble keeping clean sheets before - scoring yes, but clean sheets, no. Now I can score but can't keep clean sheet. Never happy. XD
 
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**** off
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thank you for your constructive feedback. Wish you the same.

I think i ve found a way to play this game again. This site helped me a lot plus guides in SI forums.
Guide to Football Manager | FM 2014 Guide

1. I followed the 12 step guide in duties (one attack in defence (support to the wide man in front of him or the oppossite), one defence one support in midfield etc)
2. I edited personal instructions based on the players i have in my mind for first eleven.
3. I have chosen three different mentalities. Standard for most of times, Attacking for when need a goal, Defensive for when need to shut stop or for the entire game when i am underdog (and this could be helpfull in terms of the topic).

1 : I want solid defence even when i play in attack mentality so i chose the most defending of my favorite formations. 4-2-2-1-1.

-----------AFa
-----------EGa
WMs----------------WMa
---------Ad--DLPs
FBa-----CDx--LDc----FB(S)

A (D) is on the left to cover if needed the attacking full back. He is set to Close Down More and DLP to close down less. What i had in mind was the Nike defence in my midfield exept my Defence.

The same goes for the DCs. Close Down More for the left and close down less for the right (Limited Defender is the only role allows you to do that. Now i know cover-stopper should do that without tinkering with PIs, but wasnt happy with the results so far.).

2. I will write two examples. My full backs and my WMs.
My full backs are bad in attack but good in defence. So my left full back attack : Mark Tighter, Shorter Passing (generall rule of thumb, choose short for bad passers, direct for good ones), Dribble Less, Shoot Less, Close Down More (in Guide it says that usefull attributes for Close Down More are Anticipation, Decisions, Determination, Workrate, Accelaration, Pace, Stamina) Cross more often (both have 13 in crossing), Cross aim Far Post (because the other side WM is on Attack duty and he maybe get inside opposite area often), Cross from deep (because my front players are slow and quick, i dont care for float crosses), Tackle Harder (tackling, anticipation, decisions, concentration bravery. Thats the attributes needed for this PI. I though it needed only tackling. My full backs have those in descent value), Hold Position (because i want him to have attack duty to balance the tactic (1) but no TOO attack because he doesnt have the attributes.

My right back support has exactly the same exept that he aims his crosses center and not far (the left WM is on support duty).

My WMs. Those PIs are assymetric. The combination of duties and attributes helped me to achieve a good balance here. Me left ML is set to cut inside. Because he has mediocre crossing PLUS it will help the overlap from the attacking full back from behind. He also cross far (same reason as LB), He dribbles more because he can, he sits narrower (overlap again), he passes direct (passing technique, anticipation, creativity, decisions. Thats the attributes needed for Direct Passing. Choose it for every player that has those, if he hasnt choose shorter), he crosses less (bad crossing but again it fits the other instructions), and he tackles easy (again read the guide to see attributes needed for tackling. If he is good, hard if not, easy. Mine is bad in tackling).

My right MR is more a winger. Again he fits exactly with his near teammates. The DMCR (DLPs) will go forward so i dont need my MR to cut inside. The full back behind him is on support duty. They wont conflict. So he runs wide to cover the right wide side of the pitch. He Roams because he can (see guide again. It has needed attributes for every single PI), he tackles hard, he passes direct and more risky, he dribbles more (all those because he CAN), and on the other side he shoots less (bad long shots and finishing. He crosses center to find the Striker or the Engange.

Same goes for all the other roles. You choose roles that fit your players, then duties based on 12 step guide in SI forums to encourage movement between the lines and tight defence as the lines will be better connected each other.

3. Fluidity. Generall rule from what i ve read and understand. If your defenders are good also in attack (and your attackers good in defence, or just hard workers) you choose a FLuid-Very Fluid fluidity. If your defenders are only good in defence and attackers only good in attack you go for the opposite.

I chose Very Rigid for that reason.

Three different Mentalities.

Standard : Exploit the Middle (short and quick striker), (for that reason) Play Narrower, Lower Tempo (because of low passing attributes to my defenders and decisions to half of my squad), Be More Disciplined (again because of poor decisions and creativity to a lot of players. Again from the guide. Its all there), Drill Crosses (short-quick striker). I dont touch Def Line. I leave it to be defined by the mentality itself

Defence. The same.

Attack. The same.

I have some solid wins in my league using the Standard tactic. 8 games, 12 scored, 5 conceed.
A solid performance against Chelsea away using Defensive (lost 1-0)
Two great home wins against Galatasary and Milan.

View attachment 388811View attachment 388810View attachment 388808

The bad results are my fault. Tactics were 60% fluid (have forgotten Very High to Fitness) and i fully rotate my squad to have everyone happy.

I still have issues in defence but things are a lot better for me.

again : Guide to Football Manager | FM 2014 Guide
this is it

Hope it helps.
 
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Interesting response Cisse and well laid out.

I tried something similar on older versions, literally telling the players what to do and I imagine now, as I'm changing things on player instructions - the sliders moving from often to normal or rarely.

However, I found this to be lacking and I dislike going overboard with commands, especially when playing with a top team. I've had similar result to yourself using a minimalistic approach. Which might sound like I'm unnecessarily moaning then, but my issue is with stuff I deem to be ME bugs. I suppose it must be this, for some many different approaches to come to similar conclusions. That makes better sense in my head.

My point being, there must be a easier answer - if there are some minor flaws (shall we say) with the ME, I feel defeated before I begin. As half the people deny it exists and the other half throw tantrums (like myself).

What's the answer - wait for 2015?

I'm currently testing out some defence options to see there effects a bit more closely. Maybe FMC might be the best place for this if there is no familiarity issues.
 
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Yes FMC is the best way if you want to try anything without spoiling your save.

Offcourse there are "flaws". You have the feeling all the time that the ME will punish you no matter what you do. So many people say that (people tat are known good tacticians) and its obvious and true.

Last game i played with Milan. I was loosing 2-0 in 12th minute conceeding two SILLY goals. One own goal (i have four already and i am in November) and one fluke long shot. We had the same CCCs and half chances in the end (2-4) but i lost 3-1. Maybe it was my teamtalks.

I guess we must leave with that.
 
Yeah, punish you. I feel that a lot. Looking at your instructions again Cisse, you do seem to have had one or two more clean cheats than myself. Forgive me here, but could the fact it's in the Greek league affect that in anyway. I don't mean to offend, but I assume than other than 2 or 3 teams, the rest of the league would of lower quality than say the premier league. Like the Scottish or Dutch leagues, so I wonder if that might have affected the number of clean sheets your team had?

I think a good tool or knowledge would be was to see what the AI is actually set up as. I remember a few years ago, there was a guide and it had a breakdown of what the managers where doing. I would admit they were simpler times though, I personally would be interested in actually seeing the shouts used in a particular game against me. By looking at analysis you can work out roughly what's going on.

I think it's still not quite there on the realism factor maybe, under the hood. It looks like football and I guess I want it be more like RL, but I guess I need to remember it is only a simulator on a computer. It'll never be perfect, but i think this is where I feel cheated, I feel the AI knows how to play the game and I don't, you learn one year how to do it, only for it to change the next or even as quick as a new patch and your tactics no longer work. Surely that is madness?!

Should I be using standard mentality more? I think I remember reading last year that control ultimately doesn't do what it's supposed to. Is my understanding of FM askew?
 
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I ve read in a thread here that AI is mixing a lot things during match. And uses OIs.

Teamtalks also are crucial. Bad thing is they dont work as they should.

From what i understand from several discusions you must find the perfect balance of Mentality, Def Line, Pressing etc, for EACH situation to defend good. If thats true i completely suck at it.
 
Me too mate. ;)

Anyway, back to the eternal drawing boarding.

Quick update, FMC - what the f@ck is that about? You can shove that magic sponge up your @rse SI.

Tactic was less successful in fmc for some reason, Walcott played like he was a little fat kid and don't get me started on Ozil.

So lacking in everything, I felt even more removed from the game if anything.
 
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Final conclusion - game is seriously ****, defenders act like morons and just watch opposition run rings around them.

I've tried, 180 hrs and one completed season - won the premier league by the skin of my teeth. Problem - not enjoyable at all. Has stated earlier need to overload even the weakest of opposition. Always in panic mode when ball nears my goal as to what nightmare is about to unfold. Does anyone at the club tell me how to improve it? No. Do I know what I'm doing? No. Why not? Because this game is not based on any kind of logic. It fooled me too, maybe me buy it mid season during the demo and when I bought the full version, the pain started.

I really want to like it, I want to be able to play it, but it's far too fiddly and hard. FMC is a f@cking joke. One truly disgruntled FM'er. I'm 3 goals up, the other team are attacking, do I go counter or defend - seemingly it doesn't matter, both will see me concede a goal. So should I go attack or control then?????!!!!!!! No, because they'll either long ball me or just whizz past my defenders who stand by and just watch it happen. Seriously, how the f@ck does anyone play this thing. Tired of seeing my world class team get walked over by much weaker opposition, not just beaten by a sneaky goal.
 
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I ve played three season with my favorite team Panathinaikos.

I have a young but talented squad but its the third in quality in my country.

Won two leagues, two cups and had some great wins over Chelsea (3-0), Milan (2-0), Galatasaray (3-0) in Champions League.

Knocked out Atletico and CSSK Moschow in UEFA Cup (lost 4-3 agg from Fiorentina in 8 best teams).

First year i conceeded 26 goals in my league. Second 19, third 25. In 34 games.

Great someone will tell. Well, my experience is better than my previous attempts but still frustrating for EXACTLY the same reasons Fenris says.

I second you with all my heart.

AI always finds a stupid way to punish you and break you. Not a tactical way. A STUPID way. An own goal, a set piece, a stupid penalty, a fluke shot, and something new i ve seen, great through balls from keepers to forwards, both having **** kicking/off the ball. And your 15 positioning, concentration, decisions defenders are sleeping.
 
I might go back to cm 97/98, manage Adams and Bergkamp again. 1 nil to the Arsenal. (fat chance on fm 2014)

The only way I'll enjoy this game is if my defence are all on massive clean sheet bonuses with low basic wages and the attack, only got paid if they scored. At least then I could laugh at my players misfortunes as well as my own, it wouldn't fix anything, but it would stop my having to fine everyone for shoddy performances when I'm p1ssed off.

The problem is, I can't leave it alone. Everyone else seems to be doing it, what the f@ck am I doing wrong.
 
WTF.

I'm going again, reinstalled the game this morning - will I ever learn?
 
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