Has Watching Matches Become Redundant?

Tohammer

Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
142
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Every single match just mimics the last.

Watching the ME shows no discernible difference in style whether its Man City or Cardiff City.

Is it worth just dropping the 2d and 3d match view altogether?

Personally I think the game has always been this way, its just so much more noticeable because of this particular ME.

Player skills(or lack of) have little or no bearing on what they can actually achieve according to the ME, short players with no heading skills are Towering above tall strong defenders to score goals, slow players look quick and every single player appears capable of dissecting even the strongest and narrowest of defences with one hopeful punt up field.

I'm not just talking about AI teams before anyone gets the wrong idea.

What are others seeing?
 
No. Very bad idea. Watching a match is extremely important, for me anyway. I need to see how things are going in a match and if changes are needed either personnel-wise or tactical changes.
 
No. Very bad idea. Watching a match is extremely important, for me anyway. I need to see how things are going in a match and if changes are needed either personnel-wise or tactical changes.

The point is, the 2d and 3d ME is not showing you what you want to see, all it does is calculate a result then show you some random game of football.
 
The point is, the 2d and 3d ME is not showing you what you want to see, all it does is calculate a result then show you some random game of football.
That's completely wrong though. The 2d and 3d shows what the ME is calculating (IIRC, 16 times a second although might be more these days) so it's not a "random game of football" as you put it.

When you start the match, the ME doesn't even know what the end score will be yet.

It also doesn't work backwards, ie decide a score and then show some highlights. It calculates every decision throughout the match and then whatever the score is at the end, is what it is. That's why it's so difficult to balance - there aren't artificial limiters involved.
 
That's completely wrong though. The 2d and 3d shows what the ME is calculating (IIRC, 16 times a second although might be more these days) so it's not a "random game of football" as you put it.

When you start the match, the ME doesn't even know what the end score will be yet.

It also doesn't work backwards, ie decide a score and then show some highlights. It calculates every decision throughout the match and then whatever the score is at the end, is what it is. That's why it's so difficult to balance - there aren't artificial limiters involved.

The final result is calculated immediately, then re-calculated after every manager tweak.

Anyway, no idea what you mean about working backwards as no suggestion of that was made.

I think you've mostly got the wrong end of the stick as to what I was saying.
 
The final result is calculated immediately, then re-calculated after every manager tweak.
The result of the half is calculated, yes. So, that means, at the start of the match, not even the end score is known.

You made the "random game of football" comment, not me. I was saying it isn't random. You're seeing what was calculated. With that in mind, watching matches is certainly not redundant
 
The result of the half is calculated, yes. So, that means, at the start of the match, not even the end score is known.

You made the "random game of football" comment, not me. I was saying it isn't random. You're seeing what was calculated. With that in mind, watching matches is certainly not redundant

As I thought you have missed the point, I will try to explain a little better when I get back home.
 
I don't think, as I understand it, the result is pre-calculated at all. Either for the half or for the whole game. The result is decided based on a massive number of variables that occur. The ME doesn't 'know' what's going to happen five minutes after kick-off - it is calculating options and outcomes based on scenarios and attributes and user input all the time.

The ME is a reactive beast, it reacts to your input. It doesn't calculate at kick off from the thousands of possible set-ups you have what the result will be. It reacts to everything you do, for the positive or the negative in your eyes.

If you keep inputting the same conditions (tactic) you will see similar produced all the time, with some differences depending on the opposition tactic (again, thousands of variables).

Factor in the limitations of graphics and animations, then it will start to appear 'samey' - there are only so many ways the game can represent a player chesting the ball down or heading a clearance.

Small and quick strikers can often out-jump big tall defenders anyway, give them a run up and reasonable Jumping Reach, will win a few headers in the box against defenders who are, by nature, more static and not getting the run up. A **** Heading attribute doesn't mean he can;t direct the ball to roughly where he wants, and the law of averages means that even a heading of attribute of 1 doesn't negate the fact that there is always a chance that he just gets his head in the way and it bounces off him into the goal.

One of the beauties of the game and the UI though, is that if you don;t like the 3d, or 2d views, you don't have to watch them. Install an Instant Result option and you don;t have to watch a perceived pre-determined random game of football at all.
 
I don't think, as I understand it, the result is pre-calculated at all. Either for the half or for the whole game. The result is decided based on a massive number of variables that occur. The ME doesn't 'know' what's going to happen five minutes after kick-off - it is calculating options and outcomes based on scenarios and attributes and user input all the time.

The ME is a reactive beast, it reacts to your input. It doesn't calculate at kick off from the thousands of possible set-ups you have what the result will be. It reacts to everything you do, for the positive or the negative in your eyes.

If you keep inputting the same conditions (tactic) you will see similar produced all the time, with some differences depending on the opposition tactic (again, thousands of variables).

Factor in the limitations of graphics and animations, then it will start to appear 'samey' - there are only so many ways the game can represent a player chesting the ball down or heading a clearance.

Small and quick strikers can often out-jump big tall defenders anyway, give them a run up and reasonable Jumping Reach, will win a few headers in the box against defenders who are, by nature, more static and not getting the run up. A **** Heading attribute doesn't mean he can;t direct the ball to roughly where he wants, and the law of averages means that even a heading of attribute of 1 doesn't negate the fact that there is always a chance that he just gets his head in the way and it bounces off him into the goal.

One of the beauties of the game and the UI though, is that if you don;t like the 3d, or 2d views, you don't have to watch them. Install an Instant Result option and you don;t have to watch a perceived pre-determined random game of football at all.

Sorry but that is complete rubbish. Small strikers with no jumping or heading ability don't win "towering" headers against big centre backs. Not unless they take a leaf out of Maradonna's book.

No point posting if your going to talk ****
 
Sorry but that is complete rubbish. Small strikers with no jumping or heading ability don't win "towering" headers against big centre backs. Not unless they take a leaf out of Maradonna's book.

No point posting if your going to talk ****
Good answer, well considered and thought out and an intelligent response. :'(

You talk only of their Heading attribute, yet Jumping Reach is just as important. A small pacey guy with run-up can reach the same height as a tall heavy guy with a standing jump if 'Jumping Reach' is the same. What is their Jumping Reach attribute? If they are the same, both players can reach the same height. The Heading attribute is how good they are at getting the ball where it is intended, not how high they can jump.

And I wasn't the one who said they did, it was the OP who said they did, I merely tried to explain why it could happen, in the context of the computer game. Now, who was the OP again?

Oh it was you.

First post you said small players ARE towering above tall players, now you say they don't?

And I am the one talking ****?

The game does what the game does, it's not perfect, it is what it is, work with it or not it's up to you. I'm not the one who is ****** off enough to post like you did.

Seriously, if it's that bad why play it?
 
I don't think, as I understand it, the result is pre-calculated at all. Either for the half or for the whole game. The result is decided based on a massive number of variables that occur. The ME doesn't 'know' what's going to happen five minutes after kick-off - it is calculating options and outcomes based on scenarios and attributes and user input all the time.
It does and it doesn't.

When you start the match after your team talk, you'll see "teams warming up" or something along those lines. That is the calculations for that half happening. Based on all those calculations, it decides what to show you, depending on your choice of Key, Extended or Comprehensive. The ME will only know the result of that half, but the result is the result of the tens of thousands of calculations ending up with that result.

Then you get to half time and you do your team talk. After that, you will again see "processing" and the same repeats for the second half.

Any changes you make will see the "making tactical changes" appear which is the re-calculation of how the rest of the half will unfold.

Hope I explained that well enough.
 
Last edited:
Good answer, well considered and thought out and an intelligent response. :'(

You talk only of their Heading attribute, yet Jumping Reach is just as important. A small pacey guy with run-up can reach the same height as a tall heavy guy with a standing jump if 'Jumping Reach' is the same. What is their Jumping Reach attribute? If they are the same, both players can reach the same height. The Heading attribute is how good they are at getting the ball where it is intended, not how high they can jump.

And I wasn't the one who said they did, it was the OP who said they did, I merely tried to explain why it could happen, in the context of the computer game. Now, who was the OP again?

Oh it was you.

First post you said small players ARE towering above tall players, now you say they don't?

And I am the one talking ****?

The game does what the game does, it's not perfect, it is what it is, work with it or not it's up to you. I'm not the one who is ****** off enough to post like you did.

Seriously, if it's that bad why play it?

Your making this hard work

Right listen, the ME shows little strikers winning towering headers, in fact it even shows wingers(jumping and heading ability around 6-8) winning these kinds of headers, because of that watching the ME to work out weaknesses in your tactic is useless. This is true of most goals scored shown as it is in the ME. Its all about players getting out of the way or ghosting through other players or looking the wrong way when balls come in.

As a manager I cant say to my centre backs " stop losing headers to tiny players" or "don't let opposition walk through you like a ghost". If I am conceding because my right wing back is slow and/or getting caught out of position I can make a tactical change or concede that I need to strengthen that position etc etc.

The ME is not the slightest bit conducive to making realistic tactic changes based on whats going on on the pitch. I know I need to make changes but they will simply be blind changes because the ME is not equipped to show me the weaknesses in my tactic, just that its not working based on the scoreline.
 
Right listen, the ME shows little strikers winning towering headers, in fact it even shows wingers(jumping and heading ability around 6-8) winning these kinds of headers, because of that watching the ME to work out weaknesses in your tactic is useless.
Heading is irrelevant for this.

Can you show a video of this happening, because it's highly unlikely in a straight up jumping duel. There has to be more at play here. More likely is a whipped cross where there's not quite enough time to properly get under the ball, a misjudgment or just simply a cross a little over or in front of the defender.

The ME is not the slightest bit conducive to making realistic tactic changes based on whats going on on the pitch. I know I need to make changes but they will simply be blind changes because the ME is not equipped to show me the weaknesses in my tactic, just that its not working based on the scoreline.

If you're making blind changes, that's on you. For me, it is vital too see if my tactic is functioning, if I have any issues against an opponent etc. I can see all of this in the ME and so I never have to make blind changes.
 
If you're making blind changes, that's on you. For me, it is vital too see if my tactic is functioning, if I have any issues against an opponent etc. I can see all of this in the ME and so I never have to make blind changes.

Sorry but you cant, I believe that you think you can though.
 
Sorry but you cant, I believe that you think you can though.
Thank you for telling what I can and can't do.

I've been doing it for myself and for others in the tactics forum for years, watching and analysing matches and then finding weaknesses that require correction.

What's the point of opening a thread to discuss this if all you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la la? I asked if you can show a video (more than 1 would be ideal though) of a player with a significantly lower JR towering over another with a much higher JR. Then we have an exact moment and I can hopefully help to explain what has happened.

I get that watching a match may be redundant for you, but it definitely isn't for me.
 
Thanks for the common sense-speak WJ.

My understanding of the match processing and the ME was gleaned from the SI peeps on the SI forum - not being particular technical I may have misread/misunderstood it, but I still reckon it is reactive to the input given.

I find, even with it's 'quirks' that appear unrealistic, logical thinking and changes based on what is being SEEN are still the best way to approach the tactics - even if it feels unrealistic, it's still a decision based on logic rather than blind changes. I can't do that without watching the match.

I can;t help remembering, can't remember the dates, when Wayne Rooney scored ten consecutive goals with his head - hardly a tall player, up against big centre halves, but still 'towered' over them to score ten straight headers.

For some players 'Instant Result' is the only option.
 
Though there are plenty of headers in acres of space, here are some of the unrealistic instances in which a 1.65m player beats big guys. SI should fix this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG__V83Z62Q

A bit of a tangent.

I never cease to be amazed how much I read or see YT videos that look into centrebacks to deal with high balls and focus on heading. Even from some notorious YTFMer, saying a centreback with 6 jumping reach is pretty good against aerial threats because he had 15 heading. What good is controlling where you head a ball to if you can't reach high enough to put your head on the ball?!

In fact, heading is an attribute I mostly ignore. I look at jumping reach, anticipation and positioning. Those are the keys for me, if you don't jump, if you can't predict where the ball will be within your reach and you can't know where you must stand against your rival, anything else becomes worthless because you won't be able to put it to work.
 
High crosses into the box 'Heading' is down the list of attributes I agree. Positioning anticipation, off the ball, strength are all to be considered.
There is a lot of misunderstanding around the abiltiy of players in winning headers, and making them count.

Jumping reach is a simple attribute, it tells you how high a player can reach with his head. A 165cm defender, with Jumping reach 12, will get his head to the same height as a 165cm striker with a JR of 12.

As the OP says, short striker with the same JR value as a tall defender, they can both reach the same height with their heads, so it comes down to who is best positioned, who is stronger, who is travelling towards the ball better, as they both have equal ability to jump to the height of the ball.

The Heading attribute only comes into play for the player that gets his head to it first, and represents the likelihood of the ball going where he intended it to.
 
This was a nice thread to read, much info here.

Could I ask one question on this matter?

If the ME is calculating all this stuff, how come FM needs so little hard drive space? 6-7 GB of hard drive space I think? Whereas the likes of Fifa and Pro need 50 GB of hard drive space.

If all these calculations are happening, why is it such a small game in terms of disc space?

I am not trying to pick a fight here, I genuinely ask this question because I love FM and I wanna believe that every little decision matters to the ME.

Thanks!!
 
This was a nice thread to read, much info here.

Could I ask one question on this matter?

If the ME is calculating all this stuff, how come FM needs so little hard drive space? 6-7 GB of hard drive space I think? Whereas the likes of Fifa and Pro need 50 GB of hard drive space.

If all these calculations are happening, why is it such a small game in terms of disc space?

I am not trying to pick a fight here, I genuinely ask this question because I love FM and I wanna believe that every little decision matters to the ME.

Thanks!!

Not really techy enough to know the answer to that, but my understanding is that the Hard Drive space used is only to store the game files, and your save game (which does get bigger as the game progresses - longer save = bigger files). When playing the game it is your processor and RAM and the graphics card that is used. So I guess that the other games have more data/files to store that are required to play them.

Every little decision really does matter, any input you make to the game will have consequences - whether it be in the ME, the Dynamics module, fitness and training etc. For the most part, there is very little, if anything, you do as a manager that doesn;lt have a corresponding effect in the game. The weight and value of your inputs can be so small they are hardly noticeable, but, in conjunction with other inputs you make, can combine.
 
Top