Help against Man Utd away

[dave256]

View attachment 273342View attachment 273340

Trying to get consistency against Man Utd away and this is the closest tactic I've had yet to try and achieve that. The tactic is made up of a poacher, defensive forward just behind and attacking midfielder on support behind him. The midfield is a DLP on the left and supporting midfielder, then 2 wb's, a HB in front of the defence and 1 CB on stopper and 1 on defend.

My reasoning for this is to have the poacher push back the defence and make it harder for the opposing defenders to come out and stop the DF and the AM who sit deeper. I want the CM's to hover at the edge of the box to offer a pass and then play through balls to the front 3 and also to be in a position to attempt to cut off counter attacks. The left wb is on attack to push forward and support the AM with the DLP and DC on stopper to cover his runs forward. The right wb is on support to offer more cover as the right CM should be more attacking. I hope this makes sense? The closing down settings are on much more for front 3, CM's and the wb's, HB is on more and the CB's are on less to have them staying marking the CF's. My team instructions are pass into space, work ball into box, play out of defence, whipped crosses, look for overlap, play narrower, close down more, use tighter marking, get stuck in, much higher tempo.

I use it on counter with fluid. Hopefully people can help me find some consistency

Individual instructions;

poacher - shoot more often, pass shorter, tackle harder, move into channels, close down much more
defensive forward - shoot more often, roam from position, tackle harder, close down much more
AM (s) - dribble more, tackle harder, mark tighter, get further forward, more direct passes, more risky passes, move into channels, close down much more
DLP (S) - close down much more, tackle harder, mark tighter, run wide with ball
CM (s) - shoot less often, tackle harder, mark tighter, get further forward, roam, pass shorter, more risky passes, move into channels, run wide with ball, close down much more
wb(a)(left) - tackle harder, stay wider, pass shorter, close down much more
wb (s) (right) - tackle harder, stay wider, close down much more, cross from deep, cross more often
HB - shoot less, close down more, pass shorter, tackle harder
CB's - close down less, mark tighter, pass shorter

 

[WJ]

Okay, first impressions:

Holy ****, weird looking tactic. Fullbacks aren't where they should be. Odd shape in midfield and up front.

My issue with your reasoning is this -

1 - The poacher will push them back, but not pull them out of position at all. An Advanced Forward for instance, will pull wide, dragging a defender or defenders with him. That opens gaps for other attackers.

2 - Let us still go with the Poacher pushing them back. That (theoretically) means that there's now more space for the DF/S and AM/S... to do what? Neither of them will be able to do much. Essentially, the AM/S will run with the ball sometimes only. In the end, the only option for both of them is to play through balls to a Poacher being marked by two defenders.

3 - The CM will make very late runs. Very, very late on a low mentality like counter - unless the counter is on. The DLP/S will stay back. Especially since he has Eriksen right in front of him.

4 - The wingback logic makes sense.

5 - I don't understand the closing down settings. At all. Counter mentality is quite defensive. You're saying "screw that" and going with Much More for everyone but the HB on More and defenders on Less, for some reason. Issues like crazy. Much More combines with the TI Close Down More to increase Closing Down by a lot. Having your front 3 on that I can somewhat see logic in. The rest is asking for trouble.

You have a 3 v 3 at the back. Chiriches vs Falcao who are comparable in pace, but Falcao is superior at finding space compared to Chiriches's marking and positioning. Then you also have Vertonghen vs Rooney, who is a handful and Vertonghen cannot afford to make mistakes. Rooney is also better off the ball (compared to Vertonghen's Marking and Positioning) and lastly, you have Capoue vs Januzaj (who is good with the ball at his feet). Capoue isn't that great of a tackler and his positioning and marking isn't good enough to consistently keep Januzaj quiet. The issue with Capoue also, is that his closing down has been increased, so he's going to leave marking Januzaj at times when Di Maria or Fellaini bombs forward.

All told, it's risky going man for man. If any of your players makes a mistake in defending and lets his man past, there isn't another "spare" man to cover and that will create chaos. This point 5 is your biggest issue, IMO.

6 - You have Play Out Of Defence. Why? They're matching you man for man. You're going to be under pressure to play out. United at home will be a little aggressive defensively, so you're going to struggle. Rather let your players decide who to play by letting them be a little more direct. I don't think play narrower is doing you a lot of favours either - why is this selected?

7 - Get Stuck In. Another possible issue. You're leaving everyone in a 1 v 1 situation. By asking them to get stuck in, you're increasing their risk taking when deciding to make tackles. This may work if you have excellent tacklers with good decision making and composure. If not, this will be an issue.

8 - More a question than an issue - Why Much Higher Tempo?


------

That's just first impressions. Just looking at the two screenshots and reading your post.

I feel that you needed a change of formation here. Man for man against those United players is just suicide. You could have asked at least one wingback to have a Defend duty, to help out the defence "permanently", but you're losing attacking potency then. Actually, moving them to the D strata would already help.

Edit: I missed some of the PI edits you made. The Pass Shorter Instructions also do not make sense, when you're already passing shorter with Play Narrower and Play Out Of Defence.

 

[WJ]

If you really did win 5 times out of 50, I would be surprised. Hopefully the other tactics were better. Can't see you winning with this one, tbh.

I'll add that you may get away with some things against other teams because the formations won't be the same as United used here. It's still a tactic full of holes though, but I'd be happy to look at PKMs of this or other matches where you need help.

 

[Mike.]

To add to WJ's post above, remember the following things:

United will be aggressive and commit at home, you will likely see a high defensive line

United have 3 CM and an AM, they will have central superiority, but only width from the full backs.

The CFs will probably drift out wide.

They don't have a DM, and the deep CM is Herrera.

I'd want to stay narrow to hamper their ability to play through the middle

I'd want pace to break away from their high line, and probably look for the kind of delivery that utilises that.

If i cant have midfield control i would take control of the flanks

I'd want to exploit the lack of DM.

I'd want to force their only width (full backs) inside to prevent crossing to the aerially superb Falcao.

I personally would lean to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 deep

 

[WJ]

Good post.

The CFs drifting wide is mostly the reason I'd drop the wingbacks to the D strata. Overall it would have still been a risky formation though.

I personally would lean to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 deep

I would have suggested the 4-2-3-1 deep as well.

 

[dave256]

haha Ok, I take it back. I wouldn't say that your post would solve things but it definitely makes sense, and that's from just what I wrote and 2 screenshots. The positions I went for were after a lot of tinkering and achieved what I was going for more than anything else. The AF didn't seem to pull the CB's away like I had hoped and the poacher, for some reason, seems to move more...even dropping back into space, which was weird. I do agree with the through ball comment though

Yeah, I want the DLP to stay further back as the AM doesn't always push immediately into the box and the DLP workd quite nicely with that, but will experiment more with the CM position, definitely around different team mentalities

Would you suggest a global closing down setting? The issue I've had is that without some closing down and hard tackling, opposition just walk past your players...and the CB's seem to have some set closing down built in and seems impossible to keep them marking the forwards...that was my reasoning for the different CD as without closing down settings for the midfield, opposition just walk through and I want the CB's to stay marking the forwards

You're BANG on with the CB's against Man Utd's forwards and that happens each game...but its not a bad back 3 and so I'm struggling to find improvements with that. Maybe that's the major down fall that no matter what tactic I had the Man Utd forwards will still win out over my defence? You suggest removing the tight marking?

I haven't actually had problems with the playing out of defence and I would have thought the same but it works ok. My players play out of defence fairly easy and through the midfield. I was dubious about the play narrower but I was trying to tighten up my defence as their front 3 play so magically they cut me apart too easily if I don't play narrower. I know that instruction is meant to be more for when attacking but it seems to work out a little better defensively...unless I've played this match soooo many times now I've become delusional haha I'll untick and try it with a few other things you've suggested

get stuck in was just the same as hard tackling as in players just stood off too much and their players just went straight past me

Much highers tempo was again what I felt better while watching. They close down so quickly and so I was either forced to pass quicker or go longer and I don't like going longer. Also, it helps with the closing down...but I think you're bang on again with my closing down and counter clashing

In fairness, from just 2 SS and my ethos that's some pretty impressive analytical skills of this thing you have

 

[WJ]

Why I'd suggest the 4-2-3-1 (and I'm sure Mike will agree) is then you'd have numbers at the back. 4 defenders (or at least 3 if one of the fullbacks has an attack duty and is caught upfield in the transition) to try and cope with the 2 forwards and 2 DMs to handle Januzaj. In possesion it might get as bad as 4 defenders vs Rooney, Falcao and Januzaj (so still number advantage) and Fellaini and Di Maria vs your 2 DMs. That's more encouraging, imo. That also draws them in (with you still having the numbers) and opens the possibilities of countering them.

1 v 1 your players aren't good enough to mark the United attackers. I'm not even sure you need the tight marking. Keep the shape with the number advantage at the back.

Attacking-wise, Mike made a few good points of how you can look to exploit them then. You can do all of what he said with the 4-2-3-1.

 

[dave256]

To add to WJ's post above, remember the following things:

United will be aggressive and commit at home, you will likely see a high defensive line

United have 3 CM and an AM, they will have central superiority, but only width from the full backs.

The CFs will probably drift out wide.

They don't have a DM, and the deep CM is Herrera.

I'd want to stay narrow to hamper their ability to play through the middle

I'd want pace to break away from their high line, and probably look for the kind of delivery that utilises that.

If i cant have midfield control i would take control of the flanks

I'd want to exploit the lack of DM.

I'd want to force their only width (full backs) inside to prevent crossing to the aerially superb Falcao.

I personally would lean to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 deep

Yeah, I completely agree but I'm struggling to achieve that. My thinking was for the poacher to exploit the space in behind while the AM and DF filled the space in between the defence and midfield. I tried the AP but he dropped back too much and the AM seemed to give me the best option for floating around in that space. Don't know if I'm wrong in that but it's from what I've seen. I thought an AP would stay in that space a bit more but he drops too deep, even on attacking mode

Annnnd you're **** straight on the FB's too. It's why I went for the more advanced wb's to close them down quicker and prevent the deeper crosses to Falcao. It's also why I went with the closing down much more on the CM's to add pressure to their Fb's

Being you both suggest the 4231 deep I'll give that a go

My results haven't been awful with this tactic, not by any means, but you guys have really offered some insight on not much info and so I really appreciate that.

 

[WJ]

My results haven't been awful with this tactic, not by any means, but you guys have really offered some insight on not much info and so I really appreciate that.

As I said, in this case it's more their formation causing you problems.

I'm still not a fan of the tactic but the PIs might make it semi-decent attacking-wise.

Was just looking at that screenshot again. If you do go with the 4-2-3-1 deep, have your AML look after Rafael. That's going to be key, imo.

 

[dave256]

I'm just confused how I beat Chelsea 5-2 haha and I replayed that and it seemed more consistent. The Man Utd game has been all over the place but your suggestions do really add up. If I got spanked by Chelsea I would have thought it didn't work against big teams but it just didn't turn out that way. I feel the big thing is how their front 3 work together and you're right that I need to swamp that

 

[dave256]

As I said, in this case it's more their formation causing you problems.

I'm still not a fan of the tactic but the PIs might make it semi-decent attacking-wise.

Was just looking at that screenshot again. If you do go with the 4-2-3-1 deep, have your AML look after Rafael. That's going to be key, imo.

Have him man mark Rafael? I'll give the formation and that a go. The CD instructions and the counter made a lot of sense and I was hoping to win the ball back quick and counter but I guess that's not counter eh haha I think with the 4321 deep I should have more players back and feel more comfortable with a less aggressive CD. Will give it a bash thank you

 

[Mike.]

I'm just confused how I beat Chelsea 5-2 haha and I replayed that and it seemed more consistent. The Man Utd game has been all over the place but your suggestions do really add up. If I got spanked by Chelsea I would have thought it didn't work against big teams but it just didn't turn out that way. I feel the big thing is how their front 3 work together and you're right that I need to swamp that

Chelsea set up differently, and United are hurting you in a way Chelsea didnt. Your back 3 are in 1-1 with the United ones, and it sounds like they are on top.

That said, make no mistake, away to United is horrible, so expect to lose a lot more than you would win.

 

[dave256]

Chelsea set up differently, and United are hurting you in a way Chelsea didnt. Your back 3 are in 1-1 with the United ones, and it sounds like they are on top.

That said, make no mistake, away to United is horrible, so expect to lose a lot more than you would win.

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm trying the 4231 DM Narrow with deep d-line and they're all over me. 1-0 down and they've had 7 shots 59% poss and I've had no shots. I'll play about with it and see what it comes out with. I definitely know that a high d-line doesn't workas they kill you with through balls, but I'll try next the same thing with no d-line set and see how that works. Seemed to work best on the tactic I was using and I think you're right that their front 3 will tear me apart whatever...I think that's why I maybe thought the best option was to go offensive and try to just keep the ball more.

Finished 1-0 half time but they had 9 shots, 59% poss and I had one shot. Will try 2nd half with no d-line set. I'm using counter with fluid and so Iam inviting pressure onto me, but just experimenting I have eriksen marking rafael but I don't find AM's man marking to have too great an effect in past experience...determined to get a consistent result haha

 

[conorc98]

Try a 3-1-4-2, looks like it could be perfect for dealing with them defensively if played right, very good formation for closing down and keeping possesion so could be used to not just do a smash and grab against them. I prefer attack over defence so I'd look to exploit januzajs lack of workrate by putting a great passer in the regista role. An advanced playmaker with attack duty should then be used to attack the space they leave without a dm, probably best to use a ball winning midfielder next to him so you don't get overrun. I'd be slightly tempted to use 2 defensive forwards (s) on them aswell as they will drop in and exploit the dm space with the ball but also they are likely to try to play out the back but neither the of their centre backs are really comfortable on the ball so a lot of pressing from your strikers should force them to either clear it for a throw or you to mop up or even lose the ball. They also have little pace up front so they are unlikely to be a threat from a long ball over the top, particularly with your 3 v 2 advantage at the back. On the wings in this formation probably best to use wm or dw but Rafael isn't the best defensively so if your feeling adventurous you could get a winger up against him.you could even have a right winger up against rojo aswell as its 1 v 1 so if your wingers are always attacking their fullbacks must stay back to deal with them( I sometimes play this against teams who have wingers so my wide players have to be a bit more defensive). I'm sure WJ is right that a 4-2-3-1 deep formation would be able to beat them on its day but if you want to try dominate them that seems the best formation against them. Would be interested in WJ's thoughts on this as he seems to go as in depth at looking at his opponents as I do.

 

[dave256]

Finished 2-1 in the end with them 15 shots on target and me 3 with them 57% possession. Certainly worked better pushed a tiny bit higher up and seemed eriksen was more effective at marking too as the DM's pressured earlier and so eriksen wasn't forcedto track back as much. I feel I'm set on the d-line not set. I want to find a base to work and then fit individual/team instructions to enhance that.

 

[dave256]

Try a 3-1-4-2, looks like it could be perfect for dealing with them defensively if played right, very good formation for closing down and keeping possesion so could be used to not just do a smash and grab against them. I prefer attack over defence so I'd look to exploit januzajs lack of workrate by putting a great passer in the regista role. An advanced playmaker with attack duty should then be used to attack the space they leave without a dm, probably best to use a ball winning midfielder next to him so you don't get overrun. I'd be slightly tempted to use 2 defensive forwards (s) on them aswell as they will drop in and exploit the dm space with the ball but also they are likely to try to play out the back but neither the of their centre backs are really comfortable on the ball so a lot of pressing from your strikers should force them to either clear it for a throw or you to mop up or even lose the ball. They also have little pace up front so they are unlikely to be a threat from a long ball over the top, particularly with your 3 v 2 advantage at the back. On the wings in this formation probably best to use wm or dw but Rafael isn't the best defensively so if your feeling adventurous you could get a winger up against him.you could even have a right winger up against rojo aswell as its 1 v 1 so if your wingers are always attacking their fullbacks must stay back to deal with them( I sometimes play this against teams who have wingers so my wide players have to be a bit more defensive). I'm sure WJ is right that a 4-2-3-1 deep formation would be able to beat them on its day but if you want to try dominate them that seems the best formation against them. Would be interested in WJ's thoughts on this as he seems to go as in depth at looking at his opponents as I do.

Yeah, I'm actually thinking along the lines of more attacking/possession based as my defense clearly struggle against them. No matter how solid I am defensively they'll inevitably get a goal, and so I'm thinking anything too defensive is going to be fruitless. I feel having 3 defending all times, 4 support and 3 attacking all times. Maybe 5 support and 2 attacking.

Yeah, in my tactic posted I tried an IF/winger on the left to try nullify Rafael and could be worth trying again with a different formation

Thanks for the suggestion and I'll give it a go. Really just looking to see what looks consistent as a base to work with and some good ideas coming in All seems to be the same advice of cutting off supply from their right

 

[dave256]

I will try the 3142 all standard and 4231 all standard and see what they offer. I know the replaying doesn't show as much as I hoped it would do but it must give me some idea haha

 

[Mike.]

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm trying the 4231 DM Narrow with deep d-line and they're all over me. 1-0 down and they've had 7 shots 59% poss and I've had no shots. I'll play about with it and see what it comes out with. I definitely know that a high d-line doesn't workas they kill you with through balls, but I'll try next the same thing with no d-line set and see how that works. Seemed to work best on the tactic I was using and I think you're right that their front 3 will tear me apart whatever...I think that's why I maybe thought the best option was to go offensive and try to just keep the ball more.

Finished 1-0 half time but they had 9 shots, 59% poss and I had one shot. Will try 2nd half with no d-line set. I'm using counter with fluid and so Iam inviting pressure onto me, but just experimenting I have eriksen marking rafael but I don't find AM's man marking to have too great an effect in past experience...determined to get a consistent result haha

You should use the 4-2-3-1 deep with wide men to exploit the space behind the wing backs

 

[dave256]

You should use the 4-2-3-1 deep with wide men to exploit the space behind the wing backs

Ah ok, so not narrow? So, if I use 4231 DM Wide as the 4231 version? Would you still suggest man marking Rafael or the winger should track back naturally to some extent?

 

[Mike.]

Ah ok, so not narrow? So, if I use 4231 DM Wide as the 4231 version? Would you still suggest man marking Rafael or the winger should track back naturally to some extent?

If you were using it for the reasons WJ and I were thinking then you pull them wide, because you are looking to attack down the flanks, where United have less bodies. I'm not sure, I would watch and see how much influence he has. Also you might want your winger free to exploit the space behind. It's not cut and dried. It's about balancing risks. That's why football is so fluid, very few right or wrong answers