Leeds United - a tactical experiment

[Conflictinbanno]

Thank you very much WJ. I actually have a striker who can perform the false 9 role( the striker who will drop deep). But my preference will be rather to the one who pulls wider, a CF on support duty. I don't have curently highly rated players in this role but I would give it a try with what I have at my disposal. Usually I always end up playing a complete forward out there.
Yeah, somebody has to make space for the left IF.

A DLF/S will drop deep also, he's similar to a False 9 in ways, or you could try a False 9. Don't rule the option out because of what you normally use trust me.

This year is the first time I've ever used a Target Man (I used to always try and play a striker in a role I preferred, but looking at the players they really couldn't play any other way so I decided to go with a TM as a result), I have to say, it's doing exactly what I want so far and he is scoring now and then!

 

[aramis]

I thought the dlf on support will only start deeper but not drop deep on purpose to make space for another player.

I used a TM now and then but it wasn't my thing...

 

[Conflictinbanno]

I thought the dlf on support will only start deeper but not drop deep on purpose to make space for another player.

I used a TM now and then but it wasn't my thing...

The job of a DLF in general is to drop deep for the ball, then hold it up before laying the ball off. On a support duty he is more likely to drop deeper to receive the ball and make space for those ahead, while on an attack duty he will try to fashion chances for himself and others, so will naturally be further forward because otherwise he'd never been in a position to score a goal.

Oh I wasn't suggesting a TM as an idea. I'm just suggesting don't ignore the roles that players attributes suggest he can play, as you never know that could work perfect, as per what I found where I had to build around a TM because this was a limited position for me.

 

[aramis]

Thank you.
You know, if i'll play my strikers based on their attributes I have one target man, one defensive forward and maybe two false 9.
If i'm supposed to work to that small vision I've got on how the team should actually play I believe I have to avoid players/roles that hold the ball because I would like them to pass it sooner and faster before they are taken on by the opposition.
It's the first time I'm actually thinking about this.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Thank you.
You know, if i'll play my strikers based on their attributes I have one target man, one defensive forward and maybe two false 9.
If i'm supposed to work to that small vision I've got on how the team should actually play I believe I have to avoid players/roles that hold the ball because I would like them to pass it sooner and faster before they are taken on by the opposition.
It's the first time I'm actually thinking about this.

That's fair enough that it doesn't fit to your vision then you definitely don't want to hamper that with a role that counters your vision. I did mine differently to you, as I don't feel safe playing to my own vision, I use the squad I have to hand to create a vision for me and like I said, I had no choice but to use a TM as a result so built a platform around it that wasn't just a Big Fat Sam long ball hope game!

I would say just keep an eye on the striker doing mostly want you want. If they aren't suitable for the role they are playing attributes wise, then I'd imagine they might make the odd mistake and you'd want to replace them with someone more suited in the future.

 

[aramis]

I follow your thread, the one with the starting tips.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

I follow your thread, the one with the starting tips.

Glad it has helped.
I'll be honest, putting it all into words and taking everything slowly I'm finding it much better and easier to take in!

 

[aramis]

Albion Rovers vs Leeds United 1-2

View attachment 198573

-from 13 shots only 5 were on target;
- 5 shots off target, 4 were Antenucci in the first 20 mins when he played as a F9- after that I changed the role to CF(S) and this wasted shots stopped
-cross completed seems week, 3 out of 16. Byram had 4 intercepted but after seeing them if it wasn't for the opposite defender Talu i think two of them will have been goals

View attachment 198571

From this player stats nothing seems out of ordinary for me.

BUT I noticed something that I don't like- the players keep holding the ball, they try and dribble to much(like in 80.20 Doukara, 77,38 Doukara, 76,39 Erwin, 53,50 Erwin, 45,12 Botaka, 44,47 Botaka, 5,53 Botaka- all IF?!!!). I would like to pass a little bit sooner, they seem to wait until they lose the ball. If they instead tried to pass the ball SOONER/NOT FASTER-HURRIED we will have more possession(which doesn't concern me to much) and a better build up play and more important i believe we'll have more CCC( this really concerns me). If we were in the real word I'll just instructed the players to play the ball from the first touch.

I also looked at Mirko Antenucci shots, to see if he had other options:
- 33.39- i believe he had passing options... or maybe not? in the exact moment at 33.31 all my players ( Dallas IFA, Botaka IFS, Cook CMA)were being closely marked, but in 33.37- 33.39 it seems that he could pass to Cook or Dallas
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- 11.29 - other then the right back who is completely free all other players are marked (four of them). No one successfully loses opp defender

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- 18.08- Dallas entered in an offside position but if he tried sooner he could pass. Also my CMA is to close to the DLP. The BBM is marked but the right FB is always free of markers.

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- 2.40 all players excepting the right full back are being marked.
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So it seems that my players are spending to much time with the opposition, maybe they have a chat or something?! It looks like no one is making himself available for a pass. How can i fix this please?

This is how i approached the match:
View attachment 198538

And also a PKM:

 

[WJ]

If you don't want players to run with the ball - don't give them roles that ask them to do that? Doukara has been given an Inside Forward role - a role that dribbles often. He's been given an Attack duty. The team takes risks according to the attacking Control mentality. All of that = Doukara dribbling forward when he gets the ball.

In 80:20, he didn't have other options. 77:38 he was running at the defender, looking to cut inside - as the role is supposed to do. He was in the box too, so why shouldn't he have? 76:39, Erwin tried to round the defenders before crossing. His touch let him down as he knocked the ball forward too far. Again, nothing wrong with the IF/S running with the ball, looking for a cross opportunity. This is exactly as the role is supposed to do? 53:50, nothing happened. The ball is dead and at the corner flag. If you're talking about the passage before, nothing wrong with it. Erwin received a long pass with a defender on top of him already. No passing options, so he looked to cross, but the defender blocked it.

I'm sure the others are all the same. IF you don't want them running with the ball, don't give them those roles. The role descriptions and PIs make it clear.

33:39 - He had one other possible option. Cook running from deep. It was a difficult one with Davidson halfway in the path of where the ball needs to be played. He chose the safer option back to Mowatt. Dallas isn't an option as he is behind Antenucci???

11:29 - You're not watching the same match. Botaka set off 1 second before that to lose his marker. Mowatt has done the same behind Antenucci. He needed to be slightly more patient, but the midfielder did rush him.

18:08 - Watch it again? The second Antenucci receives the ball, he turns with it. Immediately, Dallas is offside anyway, so no pass is on. When Dallas does drift onside, he's marked (goal side too) by 2 defenders.

2.40 - There wasn't options, so that's why he had a shot. It's also what a false 9 does.

The incidents aren't what you think they are.

 

[aramis]

WJ, thank you very much for the answer!

So:

If you don't want players to run with the ball - don't give them roles that ask them to do that? Doukara has been given an Inside Forward role - a role that dribbles often. He's been given an Attack duty. The team takes risks according to the attacking Control mentality. All of that = Doukara dribbling forward when he gets the ball.

It looks like I have two options:
1. get on with it and buy better IF's who can actually run with the ball and dribble when available;
2. change roles/role to wingers and make the striker an advanced forward ?

I'll go with the first one. I can accept losing the ball that way now that i know for sure why we are losing it.

33:39 - He had one other possible option. Cook running from deep. It was a difficult one with Davidson halfway in the path of where the ball needs to be played. He chose the safer option back to Mowatt.

Is there something I could have done to improve his chances or options?

Dallas isn't an option as he is behind Antenucci???

In here lies a hidden hint. But I watched that a few times now and I can't figure it out.

11:29 - You're not watching the same match. Botaka set off 1 second before that to lose his marker. Mowatt has done the same behind Antenucci. He needed to be slightly more patient, but the midfielder did rush him.

I understand what you're saying and now I also saw it. Thank you. But here I don't think it's my fault , I don't see what i could have done to improve the player decision.

18:08 - Watch it again? The second Antenucci receives the ball, he turns with it. Immediately, Dallas is offside anyway, so no pass is on. When Dallas does drift onside, he's marked (goal side too) by 2 defenders.

Yep, i also saw Dallas in offside. So again, Antenucci is without options. Why?

2.40 - There wasn't options, so that's why he had a shot. It's also what a false 9 does.

Yes, I saw all my players were being marked. But is this due to a flaw in my tactical setup? Or it was just a fragment of play?

I also played the match against Parma, which we won 4-1 but I don't think I have the time tonight to watch it again and analyse it properly ( properly means for now "in the best way I can" )

 

[WJ]

It looks like I have two options:
1. get on with it and buy better IF's who can actually run with the ball and dribble when available;
2. change roles/role to wingers and make the striker an advanced forward ?

I'll go with the first one. I can accept losing the ball that way now that i know for sure why we are losing it.

Wingers dribble a lot too. Almost all the AML/AMR positions do. Advanced Forwards may be able to reduce the dribbling, but why is that an option when you chose a False Nine initially and then a CF/S, both roles who drop deep and an Advanced Forward / Attack isn't going to do this?

Is there something I could have done to improve his chances or options?

Not really. There's nothing wrong with that passage of play.

In here lies a hidden hint. But I watched that a few times now and I can't figure it out.

There's no hint. Dallas is 20 yards away and behind him. You cannot pass to someone you can't see. I was just highlighting something obvious.

I understand what you're saying and now I also saw it. Thank you. But here I don't think it's my fault , I don't see what i could have done to improve the player decision.

The problem overall is that your players (in particular Antenucci) rushes when he has the ball, at least in the highlighted passages. I didn't watch the rest of the match. I can't remember his attributes, but it could be low decision making, low composure or a lack of vision so he doesn't see options. Is any of this true for Antenucci?

Yep, i also saw Dallas in offside. So again, Antenucci is without options. Why?

Antenucci isn't patient enough with the ball. You're asking him to pick up the ball and run with it. You also have a Control (attacking) mentality, so he'll be aggressive in doing so. He'll turn and run. There has to be immediate support ahead of him. Antenucci doesn't have that always. Why don't you consider a DLF/S? He'll drop deeper than the CF/S. He'll hold up the ball and you can instruct him not to dribble if you don't want that. I know I've suggested this to you before.

Yes, I saw all my players were being marked. But is this due to a flaw in my tactical setup? Or it was just a fragment of play?

If this was a one-off, it isn't an issue. None of the other highlighted passages look this bad though.

-----

If it was solely Antenucci that was the issue, then only he should be looked at. I'd still change him to DLF/S, if he has the attributes.

The other possibility (and I didn't look at this last night) was that your setup wasn't particularly bad, but the ball worked its way forward too quickly? That means it is getting to Antenucci before he has options. If that is the case, shorter passing or lower tempo could help. If you were satisfied with your team's attacking tendencies, that's what I'd do, because lowering the mentality will see them take fewer risks.

 

[aramis]

Leeds vs Parma 4-1

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Still have 5 more friendlies to play but it seems I have to find a way to improve the shots on target rate.In this particular game we were below 50%.
Also, Mirko Antenucci who played as an F9, was the man of the match.

For the next game I'm going to try either lower tempo or short passing TI's. I will also start with Wood upfront as a DLF(S).

The problem overall is that your players (in particular Antenucci) rushes when he has the ball, at least in the highlighted passages. I didn't watch the rest of the match. I can't remember his attributes, but it could be low decision making, low composure or a lack of vision so he doesn't see options. Is any of this true for Antenucci?

Decisions 13, Composure 12, Vision 13.

but the ball worked its way forward too quickly?

This is something I'm gonna pay attention over the next friendlies.

If you were satisfied with your team's attacking tendencies, that's what I'd do, because lowering the mentality will see them take fewer risks.

I won't lower the mentality. This time I'm working to my vision and this means some sort of attacking.

So in the next friendly I'll have to watch for:-
- shots on target percentage - from where do we take shots, are there any better options , it's a single player who wastes shots or is a tactical issue etc
- build up play - is it to rushed ?

I need to address this issues before the Burnley match.

 

[aramis]

Leeds vs Penafiel 2-0

This is how we lined up:
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We started with Wood as a DLF on a support duty. We also played shorter passes which improved our game, at least visually .

The match stats shows me to major issues:
View attachment 198211
1. shots on target/off target ratio is way below standard! From 17th shots we had only 5 on target.
7 shots were off target and 5 were blocked.

Blocked shots:
View attachment 198210

I've watched every one of them and nothing seems out of the ordinary.

We also had 7 shots which missed the target: a cross from Berardi to Doukara who misses the header, another two headers from Sloth, a shot inside the crowded box from Bianchi, two wasted long shots from Dallas and another one from Adeyemi. Since we are not that good on heading according to team comparison I'm going to re-watch only Dallas and Adeyemi shots. Let's see if they could have done better.

The first one is Dallas shot from 15 min. For me, it looks like he could have done things differently:
View attachment 198199

Also , min 28.59 he has other options available but he chooses to shot in the audience:
View attachment 198197

It may be due to his PPM- shoots from distance. I have to learn him not to do this.

And Adeyemi in min 13 has other better options but he chooses to take a shot:
View attachment 198192

So, if I saw these right , it's my player poor decision making that makes them waste those opportunities rather then a tactical flaw.

My assistant manager proposed three times I think to work ball into box, but I don't agree with him because of that:
View attachment 198191
According to that most of my assists where from crosses, so why i would hinder that by working ball into box?

There were also three saved shots but there's nothing to worry here, were just simply missed ones... it happens.

2. Major issue = 0 CCC. We had only 3 half chances and 0 clear cut chances! This worries me a lot.

Mostly because I don't know what I have to do to improve my chances.


I have four more friendlies to play and I will start the next one using a DLF(S) and shorter passing from the first minute.
But I do need to find a way not to waste shots and improve those CCC, otherwise Burnley are going to trash me in the first game.

Player stats:
View attachment 198185
Byram was the best player on the pitch. Bianchi, who was the DLP attempted most passes 51 and succeeded 45 of them.

My results until now:
View attachment 198184

But I have to do better if i want to win against Burnley.

PKM:

 

[WJ]

I haven't seen the match yet, but a couple of points.

The long shots from Dallas will be because of his PPM. Best you can do long term is to have him unlearn it, if it is bothering you. Short term, ask him to shoot less, if that's a PI option.

Blocked shots. The tactic gurus recommend that you add blocked shots to shots on target. That number needs to be above 50% to be acceptable. Yours is, so it's not that much of an issue.

I would be looking through the blocked shots to see if something could have been done differently, tactically or if it was just one of those days where all the buses were parked.

By tactically, I mean look at your play before the shot. Are they simply taking too long to pass to each other, allowing the defenders to get into position to block shots? Are you noticing any similar patterns to these blocked shots?

I just have to warn you... don'ttake results in friendlies too seriously. The AI will be seeing this as a friendly and so should you. The analysis you're doing now is partly why you have the friendlies to prepare and fine tune your tactic.

 

[aramis]

I would be looking through the blocked shots to see if something could have been done differently, tactically or if it was just one of those days where all the buses were parked.

I'll be watching them again but at the first glance there were no better options. I'll pay attention to the build up play until the blocked shot.

Are they simply taking too long to pass to each other, allowing the defenders to get into position to block shots?

This is something I have to watch in the next match.

I just have to warn you... don'ttake results in friendlies too seriously. The AI will be seeing this as a friendly and so should you. The analysis you're doing now is partly why you have the friendlies to prepare and fine tune your tactic.

Tell me about... usually when I win most of the friendlies it means i always lose the first/firsts matches. This is really worrying me.
Hopefully I'll have the time to play and analyse the remaining friendlies tonight.

Thank You,

 

[WJ]

Friendlies are there for 3 reasons, really. Getting match fitness, tactical familiarity up to a decent level hopefully and also setting up a decent tactic. Results aren't important. What you're doing is. So don't worry about the results too much, but rather focus on the positioning of your players, making sure they have passing options, are in space, aren't taking a lot of stupid shots etc. That's what's needed and you're doing that.

Get this to a point where you're satisfied with what you're seeing, but don't relax when the league starts. It's the first competitive game so the AI will be pushing harder etc but at least you'll be in a good position going into that game.

 

[aramis]

Merry Christmas everyone! I want to ask you a quick advice:
I have this game last saved before Go Ahead Eagles game (two friendlies before the start of the season) but I don't know if I should continue this save or start a new one. The reason i'm asking is this:
Two days ago I was kind of nervous and played the game at a fast pace, played this matches:
- Go Ahead won 8-1
-guisley won 3-0
-burnley lost 3-1
- Accrington won 2-0
-reading won 6-3
- bristol and sheff lost both or draw one I can't remember.
Than I gave save game but being even more nervous than when I started I simply closed the pc. Now I don't know if I should continue the save from before Go Ahead friendly or to start a new one. Please give me some advice.

PS: i'm in a place without internet connection for some days and I can't post match analysis, i'm writting on my phone!

 

[aramis]

So, I finally decided to start again...yes i started again.

The league table:
View attachment 196345

And my results:
View attachment 196344

I made only two changes to my tactic. My question is this: could i start all matches with this attacking tactic or i have to start and develop a more defensive one?

 

[aramis]

My first season with Leeds

Short version- this is how it went:
View attachment 192768

We finished third place after a slump of form at the end of the season. We were on the first place before the bad run but when it started no one from my team could even score...
I was sure we're gone lose the play offs and of course we did... from the first round , against Ipswich. And I was kind of happy because we didn't get promoted cause we weren't ready yet. I need 2~3 years to make a solid base in Championship which is going to impress in Premier from the first season.

Our first season matches:
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I used three slight variants of the 41221 I started here and also made very small in matches adjustments based on what i saw. The most used tactic was the standard mentality.
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And the transfers I made:

View attachment 192753

 

[aramis]

Second season with Leeds United

The second season was much better then the first one. We had a very long run without defeat and won the league with 101 points. Unfortunately the mini-slump started around the semifinals of FA Cup and we lost against Brighton missing European Qualification from Championship.
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My transfers:
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And some other stuff:
View attachment 192747 I really had time to play the game due to holidays. Now, I will have to play in shorter burst and save the game more often , I won't be having so much time available anymore.

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The football we play looks kind of spectacular , it's not dull as he is saying...
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35 games unbeaten :
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At the moment I'm at the start of my third season, in July transfer window , looking to make a solid team.
My aim is, in a few seasons, to have an undefeated season with Leeds in Premier.