I've watched them. Unfortunately it seems i got nothing, I draw one game, lost another. Against Hull , they scored in 26 second. I want to draw back those IF into wide midfielders but nothing really works. I can't remember when was our last win.
Leeds United - a tactical experiment
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WJ
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So you watched them. Did you see what I was pointing out? There were one or two key points that kept repeating. Did you attempt to fix any of the issues? What were they and what did you do? What's the tactic like now?
You say you're still losing... again, have you now looked to see issues? Did you look to see how your changes are affecting how your team plays and whether A) it's what you wanted for them to do B) it is actually working?
We're back to lazy posts for some reason when there's a lot to talk about. Am I wasting my time?
No, it's just that I'm very disappointed of the final outcome and very very nervous at the moment , in that state in which i just wanna break the pc and finish all this thing. So it's not the best state to post.
The play is absolutely terrible, is scratching my eyes, it's nothing i wanna be. The players are simply waiting to lose the ball.
For Charlton i tried a 4141
GKD
FBS CDD CDD FBS
AD
WMA CMS CMA WMS
DLFS
PLAY OUT DEFENCE /STANDARD/FLUID.
For Hull I tried a lot of things in match 451, 4141, the usual 41221 . Terrible ugly football.
I will play the next game with the 41221 with the changes made and I'll post my observations this evening.
Thank you
The play is absolutely terrible, is scratching my eyes, it's nothing i wanna be. The players are simply waiting to lose the ball.
For Charlton i tried a 4141
GKD
FBS CDD CDD FBS
AD
WMA CMS CMA WMS
DLFS
PLAY OUT DEFENCE /STANDARD/FLUID.
For Hull I tried a lot of things in match 451, 4141, the usual 41221 . Terrible ugly football.
I will play the next game with the 41221 with the changes made and I'll post my observations this evening.
Thank you
Wolves vs Leeds
Wolves vs Leeds
GKD Silvestri
FBS TAYLOR CDD COOPER CDD BELLUSCI WBS BYRAM
DMD MURPHY
CMA COOK APS MOWATT
IFS DALLAS IFA BOTAKA
DLFS WOOD
STANDARD/FLUID/ PLAY OUT OF DEFENCE , WORK BALL INTO BOX
min 4- seems like Mowatt and Cook are tripping each other
min 5- what's that mis ?
min8.40 - Murphy and Dallas wasting possession as usual ( dallas is doing it again in min9)
min 15 - another example of wasting possession ( alos in min 16.20)
min 17.50- why that long shot? why such a bad decision?
min 21 - the ifa becomes wma
min 25 - pass to Botaka easily intercepted. It's usually happen this way.
min25.20- look how Wood loses the ball! Why he didn't pass it sooner ?!
min 26 -look at Byram, look what's he's doing! Why ? Why not pass it shorter?
min 27 - Dallas is frequently in the same spot as opp defender
min 29- look at Cooper! I don't remember instructed him to play as a playmaker. Looking at what decisions my players make and at the way they are wasting the creativity I allowed to them my first instinct is to go to a very structured team shape. And shorter passing maybe we don't waste the ball like that.
min 31.28- why is Taylor waiting so much before passing? min 32.34 the same thing is happening to Botaka. why are we losing the ball so easily?
min 34.34 look how Botaka is wasting possession!
min 38.54 Really?! No one can take a shot?!
min 40.30 look how easily Dallas is losing the ball now!
No shot on target the entire half.
min 45.50 that's what a striker is supposed to do inside the box? No way!
min 51.37 Why Byram is losing the ball that way? Why not take the shorter approach?
min 57 Berardi changed from WBS to FBS
min63.48 look how easily Cook loses the ball! How many times I counted one of my players losing the ball so easily?
min 68.48 long ball again- and i instructed not to do so- i think they will only see very structured from now on
min 69.34 long ball
76.48 - a pass to a player in offside, frequently happens. why?
82- instructed them to retain possession
87- instructed them to contain and play even safer. That was our first win in six games.
So, we scored one goal, Dallas from inside the box. We had four shots off target and six blocked. Why so many blocked shots? We are moving to slow?
All 9 crosses were intercepted. Terrible. Why?
1ccc Dallas. Two half chances, Dallas and Wood. Again TERRIBLE.
A good thing is that since moving him to a CMA Cook plays very well.
PKM
Wolves vs Leeds
GKD Silvestri
FBS TAYLOR CDD COOPER CDD BELLUSCI WBS BYRAM
DMD MURPHY
CMA COOK APS MOWATT
IFS DALLAS IFA BOTAKA
DLFS WOOD
STANDARD/FLUID/ PLAY OUT OF DEFENCE , WORK BALL INTO BOX
min 4- seems like Mowatt and Cook are tripping each other
min 5- what's that mis ?
min8.40 - Murphy and Dallas wasting possession as usual ( dallas is doing it again in min9)
min 15 - another example of wasting possession ( alos in min 16.20)
min 17.50- why that long shot? why such a bad decision?
min 21 - the ifa becomes wma
min 25 - pass to Botaka easily intercepted. It's usually happen this way.
min25.20- look how Wood loses the ball! Why he didn't pass it sooner ?!
min 26 -look at Byram, look what's he's doing! Why ? Why not pass it shorter?
min 27 - Dallas is frequently in the same spot as opp defender
min 29- look at Cooper! I don't remember instructed him to play as a playmaker. Looking at what decisions my players make and at the way they are wasting the creativity I allowed to them my first instinct is to go to a very structured team shape. And shorter passing maybe we don't waste the ball like that.
min 31.28- why is Taylor waiting so much before passing? min 32.34 the same thing is happening to Botaka. why are we losing the ball so easily?
min 34.34 look how Botaka is wasting possession!
min 38.54 Really?! No one can take a shot?!
min 40.30 look how easily Dallas is losing the ball now!
No shot on target the entire half.
min 45.50 that's what a striker is supposed to do inside the box? No way!
min 51.37 Why Byram is losing the ball that way? Why not take the shorter approach?
min 57 Berardi changed from WBS to FBS
min63.48 look how easily Cook loses the ball! How many times I counted one of my players losing the ball so easily?
min 68.48 long ball again- and i instructed not to do so- i think they will only see very structured from now on
min 69.34 long ball
76.48 - a pass to a player in offside, frequently happens. why?
82- instructed them to retain possession
87- instructed them to contain and play even safer. That was our first win in six games.
So, we scored one goal, Dallas from inside the box. We had four shots off target and six blocked. Why so many blocked shots? We are moving to slow?
All 9 crosses were intercepted. Terrible. Why?
1ccc Dallas. Two half chances, Dallas and Wood. Again TERRIBLE.
A good thing is that since moving him to a CMA Cook plays very well.
PKM
Please tell me it wasn't that simple
So I changed the shape to a more structured one because my players were making the most stupid decisions and for the simple reason that after watching the last game I said that i will never play FM with a fluid shape. So, for me, from now on there are only very structured and structured. I've gone for structured for what it said in description.
Then i withdrawn the IF's to WM's . I instructed the left one to cut inside and to get further forward for the simple reason that I wanted to use the FB behind to his best ability and give him an attack duty and i didn't wanted to step on each other foot.
I played Cook as a CMA because i saw that he plays very well in this role. For Mowatt role i wanted someone who can be both defensive and offensive and i chose a bbm. I changed wood from f9 to dlf for the simple reason that he didn't have the skills to be a f9 and i hoped that due to his strength he will at least be able to hold the ball until cook comes upfront to help him.
Then I changed the mentality from standard to counter because on standard we didn't had that ratio 50/50 shots on target. On counter we are in that zone.
And i put the anchor there because this is my favorite role for the DM position since Makelele was at Real. This and the fact that allows the other two to run more upfront. The DM sometimes was on his way, this one seems to stay were i put him.
So the tactic looks like that:
Gk
FBS CDD CDD FBA
A
WMS CMA BBM WM(ppm)
DLFS
Counter/structured/ still play out of defence and still work ball into box
Defeated Nottm Forest 4-0 away and Derby 3-0. Now i really don't know, it's that just a happening or the changes i made really made this difference?
In the league , we scored more than two goals just against MK Dons 3-0 and now we scored so much in two consecutive games?! And we also won them?! After a very bad run of form ?!
How can i know that this is not just a happening? I really doubt it was that simple!
So I changed the shape to a more structured one because my players were making the most stupid decisions and for the simple reason that after watching the last game I said that i will never play FM with a fluid shape. So, for me, from now on there are only very structured and structured. I've gone for structured for what it said in description.
Then i withdrawn the IF's to WM's . I instructed the left one to cut inside and to get further forward for the simple reason that I wanted to use the FB behind to his best ability and give him an attack duty and i didn't wanted to step on each other foot.
I played Cook as a CMA because i saw that he plays very well in this role. For Mowatt role i wanted someone who can be both defensive and offensive and i chose a bbm. I changed wood from f9 to dlf for the simple reason that he didn't have the skills to be a f9 and i hoped that due to his strength he will at least be able to hold the ball until cook comes upfront to help him.
Then I changed the mentality from standard to counter because on standard we didn't had that ratio 50/50 shots on target. On counter we are in that zone.
And i put the anchor there because this is my favorite role for the DM position since Makelele was at Real. This and the fact that allows the other two to run more upfront. The DM sometimes was on his way, this one seems to stay were i put him.
So the tactic looks like that:
Gk
FBS CDD CDD FBA
A
WMS CMA BBM WM(ppm)
DLFS
Counter/structured/ still play out of defence and still work ball into box
Defeated Nottm Forest 4-0 away and Derby 3-0. Now i really don't know, it's that just a happening or the changes i made really made this difference?
In the league , we scored more than two goals just against MK Dons 3-0 and now we scored so much in two consecutive games?! And we also won them?! After a very bad run of form ?!
How can i know that this is not just a happening? I really doubt it was that simple!
Last edited:
Good set up for counter attacking. I'd also change the FB A to a W(S).
Teams will be coming after you (as you've been on a poor run), so you'll be able to hit them in the space. I like the roles you have chosen too (assume you have Dallas in the WM(ppm) role.
You need to think that if and when teams start to be a little more cautious, how are you going to open them up.
Teams will be coming after you (as you've been on a poor run), so you'll be able to hit them in the space. I like the roles you have chosen too (assume you have Dallas in the WM(ppm) role.
You need to think that if and when teams start to be a little more cautious, how are you going to open them up.
So I should put Taylor on WBS because it will give me more width ? Cause Dallas, who I play on the left, cuts inside...
So if I would have started a new save and played from the first game with this counter tactic i wouldn't have much success because
And after this poor run is over i'll have to change things again?
Anyway i'll probably have to start a new save cause i used the Nottm Forest game to test the tactic. Yesterday i was sure i gave up on this game and the save worth nothing to me ( i was 9th place) and then i had an idea while at work. And i reloaded that game i think then times just to see how things works and what's the best role for Mowatt ( he was cms , dlps, rpm, aps before being bbm). I needed to see how things works with the same opposition. In the last three games i defeated them 3-0 4-0 4-0 , but when the tactic was at it start i won 1-0, draw a few , i think they won once 2-1 ... it was trial and error. So I'll probably have to start a completely new save cause i'm not a cheater. But if you say the sole reason for this tactic working is that we are after a poor run is very possible that when i start a new save things will not work. Now i really wish i wasn't lazy and test it on FMT.
But i really needed to watch one game against the same opp multiple times. It takes me a lot to spot what WJ sees in 5 minutes...
So i should have another system, on control maybe? Like that 41221 but whit roles chosen for a possession/control game?
So if I would have started a new save and played from the first game with this counter tactic i wouldn't have much success because
? The fact that i was on poor run and changed the strategy was the sole reason i won that games?
And after this poor run is over i'll have to change things again?
Anyway i'll probably have to start a new save cause i used the Nottm Forest game to test the tactic. Yesterday i was sure i gave up on this game and the save worth nothing to me ( i was 9th place) and then i had an idea while at work. And i reloaded that game i think then times just to see how things works and what's the best role for Mowatt ( he was cms , dlps, rpm, aps before being bbm). I needed to see how things works with the same opposition. In the last three games i defeated them 3-0 4-0 4-0 , but when the tactic was at it start i won 1-0, draw a few , i think they won once 2-1 ... it was trial and error. So I'll probably have to start a completely new save cause i'm not a cheater. But if you say the sole reason for this tactic working is that we are after a poor run is very possible that when i start a new save things will not work. Now i really wish i wasn't lazy and test it on FMT.
But i really needed to watch one game against the same opp multiple times. It takes me a lot to spot what WJ sees in 5 minutes...
If you read Cleons counter thread, he talks a lot about using more support roles. A WB(S) I have personally found is the best balanced "fullback" role at the moment.
Don't worry too much about it for now, but when you are watching games and it get's a little tight, start to look how you could open it up. I don't know the answer to this, but you see loads of people who's form collapses as the AI plays in a different way.
Maybe not the sole reason, but clearly you created a well balanced tactic that would punish teams for over committing against you, roles are very powerful and combined with the right mentality you'll get good results.
Starting the whole save with a counter mentality might not work off the bat, you'll need to see how teams play against you, but you've seen the power of your set-up when teams do attack you, so now just think about how you can go about making sure that doesn't happen to you!
Don't worry too much about it for now, but when you are watching games and it get's a little tight, start to look how you could open it up. I don't know the answer to this, but you see loads of people who's form collapses as the AI plays in a different way.
Maybe not the sole reason, but clearly you created a well balanced tactic that would punish teams for over committing against you, roles are very powerful and combined with the right mentality you'll get good results.
Starting the whole save with a counter mentality might not work off the bat, you'll need to see how teams play against you, but you've seen the power of your set-up when teams do attack you, so now just think about how you can go about making sure that doesn't happen to you!
View attachment 201720
How does this look as another option? I want to start the new save tonight. Are there any major flaws in this one?
Any tips on how i can improve that? The results using it so far were very good...
How does this look as another option? I want to start the new save tonight. Are there any major flaws in this one?
Any tips on how i can improve that? The results using it so far were very good...
GK(D)
WB(S) CD(D) CD(D) WB(S)
X
CM(A) X
IF(S) IF(S)
DLF(S)
STRUCTURED team shape
STANDARD - usually standard mentality , but changes in matches in either Counter or Control if needed
Work ball into box, Play out of defense ( and sometimes close down more and push higher up)
Please help me identify the "X" marked role. What would you use there to make this system work?
Thanks
WB(S) CD(D) CD(D) WB(S)
X
CM(A) X
IF(S) IF(S)
DLF(S)
STRUCTURED team shape
STANDARD - usually standard mentality , but changes in matches in either Counter or Control if needed
Work ball into box, Play out of defense ( and sometimes close down more and push higher up)
Please help me identify the "X" marked role. What would you use there to make this system work?
Thanks
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2016-tactics/352286-need-help-leeds-tactics.html
I was inspired by this thread and I don't know why I hadn't thought before at playing a 4231 wide.
The truth is that in all my experiments Sloth had a better average rating then Murphy. A 4231 means that I could drop that DLP in the DM position which I kind of felt obligated to use and introduce Sloth in the AM position as an AP. And i still could use two of my best players , Mowatt and Cook , in central midfield but i have to make sure they offer defensive cover. From what I've read that has to be their main job- assure defensive stability. So I probably couldn't play Cook as a CM(A) BUT i believe I still can play him as a CM(S) - that means Mowatt will have to play a defensive role and also i think he has to be the holding midfielder ( i was thinking he could play as a CMD but this one will not hold his position due to the closing down instructions - so it seems i won't drop that DLP eventually ).
For the AM role I have so many options I don't know what to choose- i think all roles can work. I will probably choose the AP being at the first glance the more suited for the player i want to start there. This formation also allows me to play Wood as an AF so the ap will have someone upfront to pass the ball to. In the future, what I would like to do is to buy a SS and play him in the AM position with a DLF in the striker spot.
So for now I have:
GK(D) Silvestri
x Byram CD(D)Bellusci CD(D)Cooper x Taylor
( the role i choose for him it's dependent of the one playing upfront- WB(A/S)/IF(S) or FB(S)/W(A) , this also stands true for Taylor)
CM(S)Cook DLP(D) Mowatt
x IF(S)or W(A) Dallas or Botaka x IF(S) or W(A) Dallas or Botaka ( due to the wide players PPM's and best positions/roles it seems I have to sacrifice one of them, by not playing them in their best roles , either the ones at the back or the ones upfront. I think i will play the ones at the back in what i think to be their best roles because i see them being a long time presence in the squad)
AF Wood
At the moment I'm experimenting with this:
Silvestri GK(D)
Byram WB(S) Bellusci CD(D) Cooper CD(D) Taylor FB(A)
Cook CM(S) Mowatt DLP(D)
Dallas IF(A) Sloth AP(S) Botaka W(S)
Wood AF(A)
Standard/ Structured
And I have this doubts:
1. IF(A) or IF(S) ?
2. Close down more for the entire team or only for the upfront players?
3. Sometimes it seems i should give more creative license to the players( it seems or i wish, i don't know for sure) Should i give the entire team more expressiveness or should i give this to individuals ?
Any opinions? I need somebody to see things from outside , I'm so caught in trying to find a good system for Leeds and finally start and enjoy a save with them and I'm worried i can see all options clearly.
Thanks
I was inspired by this thread and I don't know why I hadn't thought before at playing a 4231 wide.
The truth is that in all my experiments Sloth had a better average rating then Murphy. A 4231 means that I could drop that DLP in the DM position which I kind of felt obligated to use and introduce Sloth in the AM position as an AP. And i still could use two of my best players , Mowatt and Cook , in central midfield but i have to make sure they offer defensive cover. From what I've read that has to be their main job- assure defensive stability. So I probably couldn't play Cook as a CM(A) BUT i believe I still can play him as a CM(S) - that means Mowatt will have to play a defensive role and also i think he has to be the holding midfielder ( i was thinking he could play as a CMD but this one will not hold his position due to the closing down instructions - so it seems i won't drop that DLP eventually ).
For the AM role I have so many options I don't know what to choose- i think all roles can work. I will probably choose the AP being at the first glance the more suited for the player i want to start there. This formation also allows me to play Wood as an AF so the ap will have someone upfront to pass the ball to. In the future, what I would like to do is to buy a SS and play him in the AM position with a DLF in the striker spot.
So for now I have:
GK(D) Silvestri
x Byram CD(D)Bellusci CD(D)Cooper x Taylor
( the role i choose for him it's dependent of the one playing upfront- WB(A/S)/IF(S) or FB(S)/W(A) , this also stands true for Taylor)
CM(S)Cook DLP(D) Mowatt
x IF(S)or W(A) Dallas or Botaka x IF(S) or W(A) Dallas or Botaka ( due to the wide players PPM's and best positions/roles it seems I have to sacrifice one of them, by not playing them in their best roles , either the ones at the back or the ones upfront. I think i will play the ones at the back in what i think to be their best roles because i see them being a long time presence in the squad)
AF Wood
At the moment I'm experimenting with this:
Silvestri GK(D)
Byram WB(S) Bellusci CD(D) Cooper CD(D) Taylor FB(A)
Cook CM(S) Mowatt DLP(D)
Dallas IF(A) Sloth AP(S) Botaka W(S)
Wood AF(A)
Standard/ Structured
And I have this doubts:
1. IF(A) or IF(S) ?
2. Close down more for the entire team or only for the upfront players?
3. Sometimes it seems i should give more creative license to the players( it seems or i wish, i don't know for sure) Should i give the entire team more expressiveness or should i give this to individuals ?
Any opinions? I need somebody to see things from outside , I'm so caught in trying to find a good system for Leeds and finally start and enjoy a save with them and I'm worried i can see all options clearly.
Thanks