No Tactic is working

[marcMCFC1986]

Hello

I have always been an FM player without the patience to create my own tactic - I just come on here, download a tactic that someone else has created, and then spend my time developing youth players and bringing them into the first team, as this is the part I enjoy.

However, this season I just can't find a tactic that works. I have tried at least 15-20 different tactics from this website and from another FM Fansite, but with no success. It's not like I'm trying to win the Champions League with Stockport County...the team I am managing is Manchester City! I have made a handful of signings, but again nothing too risky (Moussa Dembele as Aguero is injured for 6 months, Chiellini & Felipe Anderson).

I play all the players in the recommended positions and roles, and if they aren't particularly strong in those roles then I set their individual training to improve that role.

I have tried all the different tactics across different saves (as I keep getting sacked) - and as things stand I am 10th in the league, 17 points off top, lost 3 in a row (against Watford, Southampton and Newcastle), and been set a points target of 10 from next 5 games...and my next 2 games are Chelsea and Liverpool, so I get the feeling I'll be getting sacked again very soon!

Can someone suggest where I am going wrong? I have been playing this game since Championship Manager 2 so I know the game inside out, and have never had as much difficulty in getting a successful tactic as I am on this game!?

Thanks

 

[Skojardu]

good Q ! some pro who wants to answer?

 

[WJ]

good Q ! some pro who wants to answer?

Neither you, nor the OP would like the answer. That's the problem. The thread is basically "I downloaded a random tactic and it didn't work, so I downloaded another and that didn't work, so I downloaded another random one, etc etc".

The answer is : download another random tactic. Saying that, I do find it strange that someone who "knows the game inside out", doesn't a) know the tactical side of the game and b) make decent enough changes to secure results.

 

[Skojardu]

great answer man!!! douche!

 

[WJ]

great answer man!!! douche!

Told you you wouldn't like the answer.

 

[Skojardu]

Told you you wouldn't like the answer.

hahaha!!

 

[marcMCFC1986]

Neither you, nor the OP would like the answer. That's the problem. The thread is basically "I downloaded a random tactic and it didn't work, so I downloaded another and that didn't work, so I downloaded another random one, etc etc".

The answer is : download another random tactic. Saying that, I do find it strange that someone who "knows the game inside out", doesn't a) know the tactical side of the game and b) make decent enough changes to secure results.

I meant I know the rest of the game inside out - I made it quite clear from the start that I don't know what I'm doing with tactics.

I do know how to manage tactics during a game to hold onto a result, or turn it around - but when yoou are 3/4 goals down within 25 minutes it's a bit too late! I also made it clear that the part of the game I enjoy is developing youth players...nothing wrong with that. I've done it with great success in my 20 years playing the CM/FM series'!

Thanks for being a **** though...

FYI, if you don't want to be a ****, you should take example from people on another fansite on which I asked the same question:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/426397-no-tactic-is-working/

As you can see, they actually offered to help.

 

[MonagHusker]

I have a different issue. The plug and play works pretty well for me. Sometimes I worry that it works because it takes advantage of something with the match engine, which, if true, isn't how I would like to do it.

My issue is that any made-from-scratch tactics are a big failure. I am no expert in soccer (my American-ism is showing) but I am learning.

 

[WJ]

I meant I know the rest of the game inside out - I made it quite clear from the start that I don't know what I'm doing with tactics.

I do know how to manage tactics during a game to hold onto a result, or turn it around - but when yoou are 3/4 goals down within 25 minutes it's a bit too late! I also made it clear that the part of the game I enjoy is developing youth players...nothing wrong with that. I've done it with great success in my 20 years playing the CM/FM series'!

Thanks for being a **** though...

FYI, if you don't want to be a ****, you should take example from people on another fansite on which I asked the same question:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/426397-no-tactic-is-working/

As you can see, they actually offered to help.

In the end, you did download another tactic and that worked.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Sorry, I don't see WJ's response here as being dickish at all. Marc, in the very first paragraph, you state you lack time or patience to do tactics on your own. You give no indicate in your post that your intent is to do it yourself or improve in that regard. So why would WJ or anyone else offer that? Much like the SI forum, this place is pretty helpful with regard to tactics - if you ask for that help. As Matt is doing. But if that's not what you're asking for, you can't really get offended that its not offered....

 

[marcMCFC1986]

Hello

So, in response to people encouraging me to create my own tactic as this is (apparently) the most enjoyable part of the game - I thought I'd make my own, show you the results, so you understand why I don't bother!

As I am obviously a Man City fan, I am loving the football we are playing under Pep, so want to try and replicate this on FM18! I am playing a '4-2-3-1 Wide' formation, and the picture below shows my First Choice starting 11, thought there is obviously some rotation to put players like Aguero, Sterling, Fernandinho, Otamendi and Danilo in the team too.

View attachment 68911

I have chosen the Team Instructions that I feel are most likely to replicate Pep's City:

Low Tempo - Take their time with the ball, and retain possession in order to retain control of the game - as we all know, City dominate possession

Width - Wide, Stretch the play and use the full extremes of the pitch (as we know, Sane and Sterling stand on the side of the pitch waiting for the ball to come to them)

Defensive Line - Slightly Higher, I chose this as City's defenders press further up the pitch to push the opposition players back into their own half

Closing down - Much more, as I wanted the players to press the opposition and win the ball back as soon as possible

Use Tighter Marking - I added this after a heavy defeat early in the season, as all 5 goals were conceded in exactly the same manner...scored by a striker stood completely unmarked on the penalty spot who just tapped it in after the winger squared it.

Pass Into Space - As we know, City's wingers and wing backs make runs which players like Silva & De Bruyne see, and pass the ball into the space the wingers are running into.

Play Out of Defence - Again, we all know Ederson plays passes out the defenders, who I have set as Ball Playing Defenders, so we can start building play from the back rather than kicking it out to the halfway line and hoping to win a header.

Shorter Passing - Shorter passes, greater ball retention

Retain Possession - Self explanatory

Be More Expressive - City have very creative players, and the two CM's and the AM are set to Advanced Playmaker so thought this would be an obvious Instruction to have.

Look for Overlap - As I said before, the wing backs make lots of runs up the wing so thought Sane/Sterling/Bernardo Silva would look for the overlapping run from the wing backs and this would work well with the Pass Into Space instruction.

Work Ball Into Box - City patiently probe their oppositions defences, usually passing it around the edge of the opposition box until finding the right pass through to the striker.

Low Crosses - As our strikers are Aguero & Gabriel Jesus, both of whom lack height, Low Crosses is the only type of cross worth putting in.

Roam from positions - Again, giving our midfielders the creative freedom they deserve.

View attachment 68910

Not much to report on the transfer front - loaned out a few youngsters, and signed Mesut Ozil and Kasper Dolberg.

View attachment 68909

Results

Not great, as expected!

Been knocked out of the Carabao Cup by Bristol City 2-0, despite playing a full strength team.

Scraped a 2-2 draw with Huddersfield, we scored a last minute goal due to a mix up between Huddersfield's goalkeeper and defender.

Got hammed 5-2 at home by Newcastle, in which Dwight Gayle scored 4!

Then managed to string 3 PL wins in a row together, but not huge scorelines, including only beating Brighton 1-0.

Then a defeat by Stoke 2-1, and a 5-1 home defeat from Spurs has now (already) resulted in the players thinking I've lost the dressing room and think I need to leave.

I also got battered 4-1 by Bayern Munich, but managed to beat Olympiakos 2-0, however both goals in that were in the last few minutes!

View attachment 68908

So, FM Community - what's going wrong? The tactics and team instructions seem the obvious ones to use for a team like City...but it isn't working!

The only positive so far is Leroy Sane (9 Games, 5 Goals, 4 Assists).

NOTE: Whilst typing this I have played another match against West Brom away - Lost 3-2. Was 2-1 up in the 89th Minute, set the intructions to 'Time Wasting - More'. Didn't work! :S

 

[WJ]

View attachment 1144422

Firstly, you really don't have to click every button on the TI screen. It's meant to adjust what's already there. If you're making so many adjustments, do you have the right Mentality, Roles and Duties in the first place? They all come with defaults.

Low Tempo - Take their time with the ball, and retain possession in order to retain control of the game - as we all know, City dominate possession

This is looking at one instruction in isolation. Tempo affects how long a player holds onto the ball before doing something with it, yes. What happens in the meantime though? Players around him will charge forward. It's also worth noting that it isn't low tempo, it's simply lower than default, so fairly high.

Width - Wide, Stretch the play and use the full extremes of the pitch (as we know, Sane and Sterling stand on the side of the pitch waiting for the ball to come to them)

You're already wide though. Was there a need for even wider?

Defensive Line - Slightly Higher, I chose this as City's defenders press further up the pitch to push the opposition players back into their own half

Again, Control comes with a fairly high line. What did you observe though? Is it now too high? Still not enough?

Closing down - Much more, as I wanted the players to press the opposition and win the ball back as soon as possible

Ok. Was it sufficient? Did you set up your roles and duties with this in mind? How did it play out?

Use Tighter Marking - I added this after a heavy defeat early in the season, as all 5 goals were conceded in exactly the same manner...scored by a striker stood completely unmarked on the penalty spot who just tapped it in after the winger squared it.

So why not tight mark the striker? You're letting everyone tight mark, which will hugely change how you defend space.

Pass Into Space - As we know, City's wingers and wing backs make runs which players like Silva & De Bruyne see, and pass the ball into the space the wingers are running into.

You have at least 4 (maybe the IF too), who already do this though, so was this necessary?

Play Out of Defence - Again, we all know Ederson plays passes out the defenders, who I have set as Ball Playing Defenders, so we can start building play from the back rather than kicking it out to the halfway line and hoping to win a header.

Ball Playing Defenders have the licence to launch through balls from deep, so do you want that?

Shorter Passing - Shorter passes, greater ball retention

Not necessarily though. Shorter passes also means - SHORTER passes to people very close by so you could be compressing play.

Retain Possession - Self explanatory

It isn't though. Do you know what it does?

Be More Expressive - City have very creative players, and the two CM's and the AM are set to Advanced Playmaker so thought this would be an obvious Instruction to have.

Based on what? The APs who you mention already will have high creative freedom precisely because they're playmakers. You're giving everyone more now.

Look for Overlap - As I said before, the wing backs make lots of runs up the wing so thought Sane/Sterling/Bernardo Silva would look for the overlapping run from the wing backs and this would work well with the Pass Into Space instruction.

Do you know what this does though? You already have the fullbacks charging forward, so nothing changed there. The only change will have been you asking Sane and Sterling to drop deeper and hold up the ball. Do you want that?

Work Ball Into Box - City patiently probe their oppositions defences, usually passing it around the edge of the opposition box until finding the right pass through to the striker.

This only discourages crosses and long shots, just FYI.

Low Crosses - As our strikers are Aguero & Gabriel Jesus, both of whom lack height, Low Crosses is the only type of cross worth putting in.

What if the defence is packed, meaning the penalty area is swarming with defenders?

Roam from positions - Again, giving our midfielders the creative freedom they deserve.

You're telling everyone to roam, not just the playmakers.



You're completely neglecting the bigger picture, looking at little things in isolation instead of how it all fits in. And most importantly, know that there are already default settings! It's usually best to start with few or no instructions. With everything you've done, it's impossible to know what is wrong and what isn't.

It's also worth checking if you're leaving too many gaps at the back, in front of the defence especially.

It's also worth checking whether your 3 playmakers are using their own space or all trying to do the same thing in the same space. I suspect the latter.

 

[marcMCFC1986]

You're completely neglecting the bigger picture, looking at little things in isolation instead of how it all fits in. And most importantly, know that there are already default settings! It's usually best to start with few or no instructions. With everything you've done, it's impossible to know what is wrong and what isn't.

And that is why I don't do it - cos i don't know what I'm doing!

 

[WJ]

And that is why I don't do it - cos i don't know what I'm doing!

All of us started there though. There are guides, real life football, full matches in-game to watch and forums to ask questions on, if you're interested in it.

 

[Bigpapa42]

And that is why I don't do it - cos i don't know what I'm doing!

There is a learning curve that we all go through. Let me ask you this, though - do you watch real football? Because if you do, you know more than you think. Even if you don't watch matches with a tactical eye (that's not an easy thing, and comes with time and practice), you still tend to pick up on stuff. Its hard not to pick up at least some of how good sides function. You looked at Mancity City under Pep, obviously. Think about Chelsea last year and how they functioned. Leicester 2 years ago. How they defend, where the creativity comes from, who scores the goals. Having even just watched a few matches with a given side, you can typically get a feel for those things.

The important thing is simply that you are willing to learn. That means making some mistakes, reading some guides, and asking some questions. But its part of the learning process.

Two really common mistakes:

1. Team Instructions. Clicking everything. It all sounds like a nice addition, so sure! But as WJ points out, they are simply modifiers. Same with Personal Instructions. You need to see how the tactic functions on its own first, with the formation, shape, mentality, and roles and duties. That is your base tactic. What is the point of tweaking before you know how the basic system functions?

2. Picking roles and duties to suit the player. This makes sense when you look only at the singular player rather than the tactical system as a whole. People look at a midfielder and see that they are rated best as a Ball Winning Mid, so they set it to that. Without any regard to how that role functions within the tactical framework they are trying to create. Doing that across an entire side is literally sending the side out and telling each player "do whatever aspects you do best", and hoping that it works. It could, but more often its a mess. If the player has the attributes to perform a given role, they should do well in that role, no matter if the little circle says so or not.

Putting together a tactic doesn't require a detailed, in-depth understand of football tactics. It really just takes a reasonable understanding of the game, some logic, and some patience. I don't need to have UEFA level licenses to understand that a very attacking side can leave themselves vulnerable to counter attacks - Arsenal and Liverpool see this a lot in their current iterations. Teams will set up to do that against sides that are stronger - Leicester won a title doing it. Yet FMers will often ask what is wrong with their tactic and why are they giving up counter goals, only to post a tactic that is balls out attacking, no defensive cover, and ripe for getting Leicester'd.

WJ's advice of reading some guides is sound. My suggestion is that after doing that, sit down with a piece of paper and a pencil/pen/marker. Draw out your tactic. Remember that your formation is how the players place themselves in the defensive phase. Then start looking at it - how will you attack? How will you defend? Where are the goals going to come from? Where is the movement? Where is the creativity? Where are the vulnerabilities? These aren't really hard to questions to consider - they are pretty basic. FM actually gives you a lot of this information in the game now in its analysis, but start out with these questions and you can begin putting together a more sound system from the beginning. Then watch matches on Extended Highlights, take notes, and look for tweaks. This is where you can start adding Team Instructions and Personal Instructions if required.

 

[marcMCFC1986]

Ok, I've followed all your advice - started a new save and done my own tactics with minimal Team Instructions and tweaked here and there where I feel needed. Here are the results...

View attachment 67651

Think it's time to uninstall and retire from my long FM/CM career! It's too complicated for the casual gamer now!

 

[Bigpapa42]

You are getting Leicester'd consistently. How are you defending?

 

[Pdunc10]

WJ & Marc

Hi guys

Must admit this post has been a blessing in disguise for me, I’m guilty of the same problem as you Marc, knowing enough about tactics just to get by and no more, until I moved from 17 to 18 two weeks ago, I’ve had numerous failed saves that were being ruined by my lazy tactics.

Thats where this posts comes in, mainly WJ’s list of tips have got me now flying with portsmouth and sitting in the play off positions half way though my first season.

i always skipped pre season and let me assistant take control but I now realise it’s probably the most important games for a successful save, I have a solid simple 4-2-3-1 tactic with very little TI and now everyone’s set to their strengths of the tactics and not the strengths shown in their reports.

for anyone interested I’ve simply set my back line deep, TI of short passing and after kick off usually switch to counter attack if under threat a lot which sees me clearing up in (most) games

 

[kallemannen]

This has been my worst FM ever creating tactics
creating insane plug n play was so easy in fm15 and 16

I keep doing my 4-2-3-1s and get really nice possession and defence
but I can roll a whole half without a single shot..

someone said wingers aint that good in this FM
Maybe have to create a central tactic after all

 

[Pdunc10]

Yeah it’s different, but better for us lazy tacticians I’d say if your willing to adapt.

only thing I can suggest is watching the full game of your friendlies and tinker with what’s going on, my players were playing a lot of wild long passes so changed to short passing and it seemed to work, also struggled with scoring but changed my striker from deep lying to advanced and he’s now banging them in.