Possible implementation of Bayern's 4-1-4-1 ?

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zyndar

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Hello Guys,

Bayern played some very unusual formations under Guardiola, for example the 2-3-5, which in my opinion would be very hard to translate to FM16, but the 4-1-4-1, which they are playing in the game, is extremely effective.
I am starting this discussion in order to have your thoughts on it like: which mentality and team shape should be used? Which team instructions to set? What should be the player roles/duties? Even discussing player instructions.

Template

  • Mentality:
  • Team shape:
  • Tempo:
  • Width:
  • D-line:
  • Closing down:
  • Passing directness:
  • Other instructions:
 
Very interesting!!

I am not a great tactician, but I made one with inverted wing backs, based on the Truly tiki taka-tactic, Kun created last year. It is not a complete recreation of Bayern style this year, nor the best tactic of the forum, but it might be a good base to look at.

I do not have the time at the moment to explain all the instructions. So I will share the link: tiki taka kun
 
from what ive seen. its defo an attacking mentality, high line,
 
It's impossible to implement everything Bayern does in real life in the game. They just defend with the 4-1-4-1 formation but they attack in very different ways. Even when they played the 2-3-5 they defended with 4-1-4-1. 4-1-4-1 it's deffinately the way to go but there's not enough roles and PI'S/TI'S so they play like they play in real life attacking.
 
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I've started creating a 3-3-3-1 that Bayern have used at times this season. The passing is what I've found hardest to recreate, as they seem to change from short passing to direct in an instant.
 
ellismcfc said:
I've started creating a 3-3-3-1 that Bayern have used at times this season. The passing is what I've found hardest to recreate, as they seem to change from short passing to direct in an instant.
Click to expand...

Then you have to use mixed.
 
badstuber was a CB but was subbed of later for vidal tho.
 
very difficult task....

I think it will be an almost impossible task... because their game suffers a huge mutation when they have the ball!! Muller playing for example, defends like a MC however when they have the possession plays like a SS. But it will be interesting if someone give it a try. I will try and give some feed...
 
Think you need to use Man mark you set up for every match.
 
kallemannen said:
he played with 0 centrebacks against bochum lol
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You should watch the games and not only the formation some sites uses to say the starting eleven. he played a 4-1-4-1 formation everytime since the winter break. They defend in 4-1-4-1 and when attacking lahm steps up to the midfield if the ball it's on the left and alaba does the same when the ball is on the right. Costa and Robben provide the width so thiago,lewa and muller can build up. Even when they play with 5 man attack they use the 4-1-4-1 with coman and robben in the wings and costa and muller in the centre and lewa up top.
 
I've read this article, it contains some really handful information.


For me it's quite clear that 100% implementation would be nearly impossible, but at least we can try it. Considering what I've seen before and what I read, it is possible that due to the positions of Müller and Costa, the formation should be 2-3-5, since in a 4-1-4-1, they would sit too deep, even with the highest D-line and most attacking mentality. So for them SSa or AMa roles and duties. Coman and Robben should be Wa. Lewa might be F9 or CFs. Lahm and Alaba for me in the wingback positions as WBs, sitting narrower. Vidal/Xabi Alonso as HBd and the 2 central defenders as BPDd. The system is all about the triangles.



Using the template from the OP:


  • Mentality: Attacking
  • Team shape: Very fluid
  • Tempo: Normal
  • Width: Balanced
  • D-line: Normal (due to the formation and 2 central defenders)
  • Closing down: Close down more
  • Passing directness: Mixed
  • Other instructions: Prevent short GK distribution, Use tighter marking, Play out of defence, Look for overlap, Stick to positions

I am not even sure that if we are translating the structure as accurate as possible it will work in the game, but would be interesting to try. Yesterday I did a short test in my testing league, for 10 matches, but that was a 4-1-4-1 and instructions close to this, but with highest D-line. The record was 6-1-3, there were matches were we dominated, but against Barca away we got around 4 shots in the match, against 20ish of them, so playing with 2 defenders could be dangerous.
 
zyndar said:
I've read this article, it contains some really handful information.


For me it's quite clear that 100% implementation would be nearly impossible, but at least we can try it. Considering what I've seen before and what I read, it is possible that due to the positions of Müller and Costa, the formation should be 2-3-5, since in a 4-1-4-1, they would sit too deep, even with the highest D-line and most attacking mentality. So for them SSa or AMa roles and duties. Coman and Robben should be Wa. Lewa might be F9 or CFs. Lahm and Alaba for me in the wingback positions as WBs, sitting narrower. Vidal/Xabi Alonso as HBd and the 2 central defenders as BPDd. The system is all about the triangles.



Using the template from the OP:
  • Mentality: Attacking
  • Team shape: Very fluid
  • Tempo: Normal
  • Width: Balanced
  • D-line: Normal (due to the formation and 2 central defenders)
  • Closing down: Close down more
  • Passing directness: Mixed
  • Other instructions: Prevent short GK distribution, Use tighter marking, Play out of defence, Look for overlap, Stick to positions
I am not even sure that if we are translating the structure as accurate as possible it will work in the game, but would be interesting to try. Yesterday I did a short test in my testing league, for 10 matches, but that was a 4-1-4-1 and instructions close to this, but with highest D-line. The record was 6-1-3, there were matches were we dominated, but against Barca away we got around 4 shots in the match, against 20ish of them, so playing with 2 defenders could be dangerous.
Click to expand...

This is one **** of challenge & I think I will try it out. It's risky I know but if it works, I think it will be an awesome tactic.

I don't agree with you on certain things though. For example, the article says that Costa / Muller are deployed as Inside Forwards. I'm not at home right now so I can't see the Role options available - can they be set as Inside Forwards instead of AM? I can check it out later today of course but I am just curious. Also, they should swap with the Wingers occasionally, as mentioned in the article.

Another thing is regarding the DM. According to the article he's a Regista ... do you think HB would be better? I mean, I know that a HB is more defensive but I believe that a Regista would suit the system better especially if Vidal / Alonso are used. I play with Dortmund & I believe that Gundogan would be a perfect Regista.

Also, the article says that the Wingers should hold a structured position to maintain width all the time. This I think could be achieved by instructing the player to 'Stick to his position'. But, is there a Player Instruction for that? I know there's a Team Instruction but I'm not sure if there's a Player Instruction. Again, will have to check.

One final thing is about the CWB. You mentioned the 'Look for Overlap' instruction but according to the article, I don't think that the Wing Backs are 'actually' Wing Backs. They seem more like Midfielders, even in the picture. So I was thinking either Inverted Wing Backs or else CWB but instructed to stay Narrow. In my opinion, instead of the 'Look for Overlap' instruction, it would be better to use 'Play on Left / Right Flanks' because from what I understood, the main attacking play is focused on the Wingers & the Inside Forwards / Attacking Midfielders.

These are just my opinions of course & feel free to criticise or correct me :-)

Thanks in advance for the feedback & will report back with my findings :-)
 
CobainK said:
This is one **** of challenge & I think I will try it out. It's risky I know but if it works, I think it will be an awesome tactic.

I don't agree with you on certain things though. For example, the article says that Costa / Muller are deployed as Inside Forwards. I'm not at home right now so I can't see the Role options available - can they be set as Inside Forwards instead of AM? I can check it out later today of course but I am just curious. Also, they should swap with the Wingers occasionally, as mentioned in the article.

Another thing is regarding the DM. According to the article he's a Regista ... do you think HB would be better? I mean, I know that a HB is more defensive but I believe that a Regista would suit the system better especially if Vidal / Alonso are used. I play with Dortmund & I believe that Gundogan would be a perfect Regista.

Also, the article says that the Wingers should hold a structured position to maintain width all the time. This I think could be achieved by instructing the player to 'Stick to his position'. But, is there a Player Instruction for that? I know there's a Team Instruction but I'm not sure if there's a Player Instruction. Again, will have to check.

One final thing is about the CWB. You mentioned the 'Look for Overlap' instruction but according to the article, I don't think that the Wing Backs are 'actually' Wing Backs. They seem more like Midfielders, even in the picture. So I was thinking either Inverted Wing Backs or else CWB but instructed to stay Narrow. In my opinion, instead of the 'Look for Overlap' instruction, it would be better to use 'Play on Left / Right Flanks' because from what I understood, the main attacking play is focused on the Wingers & the Inside Forwards / Attacking Midfielders.

These are just my opinions of course & feel free to criticise or correct me :-)

Thanks in advance for the feedback & will report back with my findings :-)
Click to expand...


I agree with you in some points and disagree in others. Even the article mentions Costa and Müller as IF, but it is not possible to have wingers and IFs. I mean it is, but it's pointless. In their positions you can only select SS, AM, AP, T, E roles.

Choosing Regista might be more accurate in terms of the IRL example, but I think the game will punish this more, if you know what I mean. Nevertheless it is a good point and should be considered.

You cannot assign 'stick to position' to players, but I selected as a team instruction.

The inwerted wingbacks are only cutting inside with the ball in my opinion, so WB/CWB with sit narrower would fit the translation. Again, this also needs to be tested. I completely agree with you in terms of the Look for Overlap being unticked and expolit both flanks should be used instead.

If you are doing testing, may I ask you to use my testing league (at the bottom of the OP)? Since it is possible that later I will post some test results based on the discussion/ideas here, it would be more easy to compare.
 
zyndar said:
I agree with you in some points and disagree in others. Even the article mentions Costa and Müller as IF, but it is not possible to have wingers and IFs. I mean it is, but it's pointless. In their positions you can only select SS, AM, AP, T, E roles.

Choosing Regista might be more accurate in terms of the IRL example, but I think the game will punish this more, if you know what I mean. Nevertheless it is a good point and should be considered.

You cannot assign 'stick to position' to players, but I selected as a team instruction.

The inwerted wingbacks are only cutting inside with the ball in my opinion, so WB/CWB with sit narrower would fit the translation. Again, this also needs to be tested. I completely agree with you in terms of the Look for Overlap being unticked and expolit both flanks should be used instead.

If you are doing testing, may I ask you to use my testing league (at the bottom of the OP)? Since it is possible that later I will post some test results based on the discussion/ideas here, it would be more easy to compare.
Click to expand...

The problem with football manager it's that year after year the formation you see on your screen it's more your defensive formation. That's why you have to choose a 4-1-4-1 because it doesn't matter if they play with 5 forwards or 3 CB they always defend with 4-1-4-1 so they can cover all the "lines" in the pitch.When you choose IF for the wings you make the players cut inside all the time and although robben does that ( the cut-inside man) douglas and coman don't and as Henry said about Pep in the last third the players have freedom. Stick to positions it's also nonsense since you see thiago,lewa,muller,alaba,lahm and thiago move around. Mainly thiago when hes building. The problem with the WB is that when you ask them to go narrow and cut inside with the ball you see them many times open up the field no matter what. Only if you play them in the defensive midfield and man mark they will cover the flanks defending and badly cause man mark it's not reliable either.
 
rogermendes29 said:
The problem with football manager it's that year after year the formation you see on your screen it's more your defensive formation. That's why you have to choose a 4-1-4-1 because it doesn't matter if they play with 5 forwards or 3 CB they always defend with 4-1-4-1 so they can cover all the "lines" in the pitch.When you choose IF for the wings you make the players cut inside all the time and although robben does that ( the cut-inside man) douglas and coman don't and as Henry said about Pep in the last third the players have freedom. Stick to positions it's also nonsense since you see thiago,lewa,muller,alaba,lahm and thiago move around. Mainly thiago when hes building. The problem with the WB is that when you ask them to go narrow and cut inside with the ball you see them many times open up the field no matter what. Only if you play them in the defensive midfield and man mark they will cover the flanks defending and badly cause man mark it's not reliable either.
Click to expand...

If you use 'roam from positions', you'll lose the triangles? If 'stick to position' is pointless, then nothing needs to be used here. But if you use very fluid team shape, which is needed in my opinion, than again, they will be roaming more?
 
zyndar said:
If you use 'roam from positions', you'll lose the triangles? If 'stick to position' is pointless, then nothing needs to be used here. But if you use very fluid team shape, which is needed in my opinion, than again, they will be roaming more?
Click to expand...

It's definitely a problem. You want to keep the triangles all the time, what im trying to say is that it's not the same triangles all the time mainly in the attack. You have the triangle alaba,alonso,thiago or alaba,badstuber,thiago all the time when they start to build up so here you should stick to positions but in the attack you see thiago on the right and left,muller on the centre and right and lewa on the centre and left, and i think it's like this so they confuse the opponent marks
 
rogermendes29 said:
It's definitely a problem. You want to keep the triangles all the time, what im trying to say is that it's not the same triangles all the time mainly in the attack. You have the triangle alaba,alonso,thiago or alaba,badstuber,thiago all the time when they start to build up so here you should stick to positions but in the attack you see thiago on the right and left,muller on the centre and right and lewa on the centre and left, and i think it's like this so they confuse the opponent marks
Click to expand...

I agree with you zyndar that with a Very Fluid team shape they will be roaming more, but aren't you restricting that instruction with the 'Stick to Position' instruction then? The problem is that you cannot set a Player Instruction for 'Stick to Position' to the Wingers role in my opinion. Because if this was possible, then it would solve the problem. The others would Roam because of the Very Fluid instructions & the Wingers will keep their structured position.

I don't agree with you rogermendes29 that you have to choose 4-1-4-1 as a formation. I will try the 2-3-5 as it is & see where it takes me. Like I said, it's risky but worth a try. If you keep the formation 'on the screen' as 4-1-4-1, how can you play Muller & Costa as CM? You know what I mean? It's difficult to implement I know & very complicated.

PS: Do you think the 'Stay Wider' instruction is the equivalent to the 'Stick to Position' / 'Hold Position' instruction? I'm not so sure, would appreciate your views.
 
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CobainK sent me a PM, because he was not able to post for some reason. Trying to post now:

"Thanks for the feedback mate.

I thought so regarding the Attacking Midfielders but I just could not remember what Roles were available. Well, I guess it's pointless in FM because according to the person who wrote that article, the Attacking Midfielders are Inside Forwards. So that definitely cannot be done then. I guess AMa would be the best option with maybe the instructions to 'Drop Deep to Get the Ball' & 'Hold Up Ball', as the article suggests they do. I don't think these are available for the AMa Role though. Will have to check which Role suits best so that they can help in Midfield as well.

I agree with you regarding the Regista ... HB would be safer of course. Will have to try it out.

Thought so as well regarding the 'Stick to Position' player instruction. I don't know all the instructions by heart so I wasn't sure. Yes, I know you selected it as a Team Instruction but I believe that by doing that you are restricting the roaming of the other players & as the article said, only the Wingers have strict instructions to hold structured positions. It's a pity this cannot be done in FM. I know that you've set the shape as 'Very Fluid' but I guess the 'Stick to Position' Team Instruction will limit this a bit.

Yea, the WB/CWB is a bit tricky. I'm not so sure it can be implemented like Pep's in FM. Will have to try.

Thanks for suggesting your testing league - will keep it in mind for sure. Don't have much time at the moment to be honest, but when I have, I will certainly use it."
 
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