Some thought about the testing leagues.

[Will1981]

Here is my opinion You can have a great tactic, great players, follow the instructions down to a T. However if you draw a game, or morale slips or if you mismanage a player grievance, it can all fall to ****.

Hence why in tactic testing leagues teams go on a "bad run". Any human player would be having team meetings, chats with layers and squad rotation etc to rectify.

As TTF also says, players not being picked in right positions either can be a ****. The palace save I am testing in the now will have the ***.Man pick Zaha as my inside forward every single game if I let him over Puncheon who is clearly the better not just for the role, but the specific instructions I have set.

The problem isn't with the testing leagues but actually with the human element involved. As you can have all the variables perfectly tee'd up but make bad decisions, a poor choice of team talk or no remedial action to rectify matters when they go south.

Plug and Play is dead. I say this as an author of tactics over 10 years who tries to plug and play. These tests rely on plug and play conditions, all of them do. The game has evolved since then massively to SI's credit.

No point hating the testers. Not one of them is crooked, its just that NO MATTER what they do, as TTF indicates, there are variables that massively influence performance that can make things go **** up.

Want proof. Look at all teams tested, the vast majority go through those "dips" in forms I referenced above. Be it two/three games or six. I know, I've looked already.

I think what tactic creators need to do is up their game. Don't just release a tactic but release a guide or a "how to" for different scenarios. Not just fav, underdog and balanced but how to cope with all the scenarios the game throws up. It's not the testers fault, more the creators for being half arsed and lazy. I know because i'm guilty as charged. I know **** right folks won't mirror my results unless they play a similar way.

I'll release a tactic tonight giving what i perceive to be the best possible chance for success. It will be a mammoth opening post but maybe that's what us creators need to do now, instead of ******** that folk "don't get it". Ideally every post from a creator on his/her thread should be "refer to OP", if not, they themselves have ****** up.

My two cents for what it was worth.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and I do my best in my tests to limit human interaction with the players and tactic as much as I possible do in a variety of ways as follows:

I always use the same exact save when I test tactics so teams are always played in the exact same order.

I always use created teams as existing teams compete in european competitions which alter the fixture list.

I never test in cup competitions as these are down to random luck of the draw.

I never use FMRTE (I dont own it) to raise morale after a defeat as I feel one of the biggest factors that makes a good tactic is how quickly it recovers after a bad run of defeats.

I always use the same assistant manager (200 CA) to do team talks, set training and do the team selection so that all tactics are treated in exactly the same way.

I have found a way to stop players from ever moaning about 1st team football so never have to deal with that problem.

I have found a way to almost (99.9%) eradicate all injuries from FM15.

 

[jasonbhoys]

Not a bad idea, ttf pm'd ya dude

Get MR L involved

 

[Chrissy Ross]

Will my point isn't that the testing leagues are bad, more that the creators need to essentially explain to your average punter how to play the game.

No point providing tools if folk don't know how to use them.

 

[pavleg]

My point was to show how the incompetence of the assistant manage even if he has 200 CA.

Of course during the test you won't use "Holiday" mode because it would be just ridiculous but assistant manage still picks the team!

I remember how assistant manager in some of Will's test picked Angel Di Maria to play as BWM! It was just hilarious!

True, you said some valuable things. There is room for improvement, but again it is impossible to conduct a test and to satisfy every member of the community.

 

[macca72]

First thing I would say is that the people who create the testing leagues do not deserve some of the **** they get, these are folk who are spending time creating something solely for the benefit of others, so deserve a huge amount of respect, regardless of what anyone thinks about the validity / usefulness of them.

Secondly, anyone who flips because their tactic "under performs" needs a quiet word with themselves in a dark room.

All the above being said I agree that these are far far from bulletproof, and indeed in many ways can be totally misleading. I maintain the only way to do a solid test is to pick 3 teams (lower / mid / top) in a division and test at least 1 full season playing the game as you normally would, with no holidaying and no assistant input.

Of course this is almost impossible, given the patch release schedule and the changes this brings to the ME, you'd probably need to do nothing else with your life to complete such a task, although theoretically it might be possible to do this with, say, the "top" 3-5 tactics on the forum. More could be achieved if a bunch of 5-10 people got together to do it.

The posts from Chrissy and TFF are spot on.

 

[Will1981]

True, you said some valuable things. There is room for improvement, but again it is impossible to conduct a test and to satisfy every member of the community.

I agree there is room for improvement and the more I do it the better I feel the test becomes, I think I have probably done around 50 different tactic testing threads since FM10 and I feel I am always trying to improve the accuracy of the testing as much as I possible can.

I take my tactic testing as seriously as most of the tactic makers take their tactic creation.

 

[Chrissy Ross]

I never use FMRTE (I dont own it) to raise morale after a defeat as I feel one of the biggest factors that makes a good tactic is how quickly it recovers after a bad run of defeats.

I always use the same assistant manager (200 CA) to do team talks, set training and do the team selection so that all tactics are treated in exactly the same way.

.

These two points alone are genuine recipes for disaster for tactics that use amended roles to create custom roled players.

I have never just used the player role without edits. The AI will not pick players based on that. I am nto ahving a go, just think I have realised why my my results with your tests are always so random and why there are "run's" of defeats.

To not take remedial action to morale is madness. Your choice though in playing, I just would not propose it of a method of playing.

 

[Will1981]

this is how far my tactic testing has come.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2010-tactics/37875-tactics-fully-tested.html

 

[jasonbhoys]

Love this thread, even though I don't know half the things use are talking about

 

[callamity]

to be fair I actually let my assistant pick my team before every match. I will change a couple stupid things he does like the Zaza at libero and colback at sweeper from the above screenie but other than that I generally play as simple as possible.

 

[haunted33]

can we get a going definition of "plug n play"? i dont understand why everybody says plug n play is dead

i play plug n play style since i dont know fm10, i never watch any matches, it bores me to death, i dont do any team talks, i completly ignore favored player moves.. yet i somehow end up dominating the league after 3 years and win every game after..

just because your tactic doesnt let leicester or burnley finish top 5 in the first year means its bad or "not plug n play functional"

so is your "plug n play" definition aimed at "overperform with the weakest team in the league"? or what exactly do you guys understand under plug and play is dead?!

in fact if your players are just good enough you can set them up in the most ridicioulus manner and they tend to crush the opponent anyway, thats why posting tactic results with barcelona, manu or arsenal are borderline useless because the player attributes are so high, they can litearlly play any role very good anyway, therefore the results are gonna be very good

i played barcelona for fun with DL DC DC DR DM ML MC MC MC MR, no one up front, yet with some basic configurations you end up winning the games 5-0 with like 7CCC...

 

[Will1981]

to be fair I actually let my assistant pick my team before every match. I will change a couple stupid things he does like the Zaza at libero and colback at sweeper from the above screenie but other than that I generally play as simple as possible.

to be fair I usually let my assistant manager pick the team in my saves too I feel that the better assistant manager I can get the better team he will pick.

As for the sweeper issue I did a search at the start of a season with Leicester and not one player in the whole 4000 player database can actually play sweeper and only 13 out of 4000 players can partially play sweeper and only 4 of them are any good.

 

[Chrissy Ross]

Hey, I respect the fact we all play the game differently.

I just think there are certain variables you cannot ignore when testing. I holiday in between games when elite testing though to get to the matches only so I am a total hypocrite

 

[Chrissy Ross]

can we get a going definition of "plug n play"? i dont understand why everybody says plug n play is dead

i play plug n play style since i dont know fm10, i never watch any matches, it bores me to death, i dont do any team talks, i completly ignore favored player moves.. yet i somehow end up dominating the league after 3 years and win every game after..
..

Just loading the tactic and winning everything and not being reactive.

 

[Will1981]

Hey, I respect the fact we all play the game differently.

I just think there are certain variables you cannot ignore when testing. I holiday in between games when elite testing though to get to the matches only so I am a total hypocrite

there will never be a perfect way of testing as the game is far too random how many games do you play in a season where you completely dominate the game 40-2 shots, 8-0 CCC and lose 0-1.

 

[callamity]

to be fair I usually let my assistant manager pick the team in my saves too I feel that the better assistant manager I can get the better team he will pick.

As for the sweeper issue I did a search at the start of a season with Leicester and not one player in the whole 4000 player database can actually play sweeper and only 13 out of 4000 players can partially play sweeper and only 4 of them are any good.

sounds about right mate.

I am only using the role as the half back is bugged and not working as intended. I think the libero on attack duty works how the half back is supposed to. This is why I think a DM is the best choice for the role. I set this up 6 games ago mid season during a pretty **** season. Where I have been chopping and changing tactics so it is far from fluid and have not conceded a goal yet. I have on the other hand only scored 8 goals in those 6 games but it is 6 wins .

 

[Chrissy Ross]

there will never be a perfect way of testing as the game is far too random how many games do you play in a season where you completely dominate the game 40-2 shots, 8-0 CCC and lose 0-1.

Also, alot of tactic testing is done with high end players etc. Some tactics are built to be generic across the board. What works for East Fife on a cold Tuesday night in Methil might fail utterly at the Camp Nou.

Basically, you are on a hiding to nothing dude, as are the tactic creators.

 

[Will1981]

Also, alot of tactic testing is done with high end players etc. Some tactics are built to be generic across the board. What works for East Fife on a cold Tuesday night in Methil might fail utterly at the Camp Nou.

Basically, you are on a hiding to nothing dude, as are the tactic creators.

you have a good point there weather, temperature, wind conditions and pitch conditions will also greatly affect how a tactic performs.

 

[pavleg]

can we get a going definition of "plug n play"? i dont understand why everybody says plug n play is dead

i play plug n play style since i dont know fm10, i never watch any matches, it bores me to death, i dont do any team talks, i completly ignore favored player moves.. yet i somehow end up dominating the league after 3 years and win every game after..

just because your tactic doesnt let leicester or burnley finish top 5 in the first year means its bad or "not plug n play functional"

so is your "plug n play" definition aimed at "overperform with the weakest team in the league"? or what exactly do you guys understand under plug and play is dead?!

in fact if your players are just good enough you can set them up in the most ridicioulus manner and they tend to crush the opponent anyway, thats why posting tactic results with barcelona, manu or arsenal are borderline useless because the player attributes are so high, they can litearlly play any role very good anyway, therefore the results are gonna be very good

i played barcelona for fun with DL DC DC DR DM ML MC MC MC MR, no one up front, yet with some basic configurations you end up winning the games 5-0 with like 7CCC...

Everybody means his own thing when saying Plug and Play.
Every new FM I watch matches like for first 2-3 weeks, then I just completely fastforward them. I don't care about tweaking tactic, watching my players perform and etc. I care about scouting, development, and most importantly statistics. I don't feel that tactic creation is realistic and I don't like how it is done in FM. I can make my own tactics and such, but why bother, I don't feel I can implement my real life football knowledge because of how simplified tactic creation has become, and how the game does not give any kind of information for new players, so they have to read guides on what mentality means in FM, what do instructions actually mean and do, and much more.

So yeah, I guess my tactical style is Plug and Play, just pick a tactic you like and stick with it. However I do a lot of micromanagement, so in other areas my playing style is different.

 

[haunted33]

Everybody means his own thing when saying Plug and Play.
Every new FM I watch matches like for first 2-3 weeks, then I just completely fastforward them. I don't care about tweaking tactic, watching my players perform and etc. I care about scouting, development, and most importantly statistics. I don't feel that tactic creation is realistic and I don't like how it is done in FM. I can make my own tactics and such, but why bother, I don't feel I can implement my real life football knowledge because of how simplified tactic creation has become, and how the game does not give any kind of information for new players, so they have to read guides on what mentality means in FM, what do instructions actually mean and do, and much more.

So yeah, I guess my tactical style is Plug and Play, just pick a tactic you like and stick with it. However I do a lot of micromanagement, so in other areas my playing style is different.

yes i play the same, i only scout and develop players, pick a tactic (usually out of the forum), get players on the positions and get better year per year, get better players.. and eventually the tactic will work if your players get good enough and you start winning everything..

thats why i dont think "plug n play is dead".. its by definition impossible to create a tactic that wins with every team.. its start at simple squad depth the first year, say you have a tight budget and already tight salarys, the uber tactic that led the topic creator on the forum finish second as Cologne requires 3 F9's as strikers (just as an example).. and yet here you are.. English Club XY with 2 Hulk Hogans in the squad as strikers and the third one a youth prospect...

or a tactic that needs a DM regista or wingbacks in their formation.. what if the "unbeatable tactic" requires wingbacks in the formation to fully exploit the match engine (just as an example), yet barely any clubs have people who can play as wingbacks.. therefore you would never find such a tactic..