Starting at a club - Tips

[Conflictinbanno]

Hi guys,

Basically the subject covers it and I couldn't find WJ's old post about starting at a club to refer to whether all of this is covered or not. But basically I want to explain what I do and wondered if what I put after, would benefit me a lot in the long run (I basically think I'm not going into enough detail for myself, but I'm not always sure where to look).

So what I tend to do at a club is analyse the players I have and depth, then see where I should probably finish in the league, this will generally make me decide on the formation and mentality (mid table side, maybe mixing between Counter/Control Defensive/Attacking depending on how the game is planning out), in terms of choosing TI's I tend to try to keep it to a minimum mainly because I feel not every side is going to play how I want and I don't want to make things bad by throwing in too many (this is point 1 that I feel could hamper me, do you pick TI's based on how you just want to play, or do you choose this by looking at your players in more detail, maybe you have lots of good tacklers so you may use get stuck in or maybe the opposite so you pick stay on feet, lots of players with high stamina might make you pick close down more, or brilliant passing throughout the team, you get the idea)

Next is picking the role/duties, I tend to look at the players stats or Assistant's recommendations and then try to get a balance around it. (again could I help myself by going into more detail with this, so I have a CM who my Assistant recommends say an AP or DLP although he could play AMC as an AP yet has say attributes that look good for a Treq, should I suddenly consider this more? Maybe check the players PPM's which I think is on the players Info screen and see if that could hamper him in that position or could push him more to an AP over a DLP etc.?)

Then I tend to try to stick to this style and I find if I get injuries to my first team that my subs then tend to struggle, which I imagine is they aren't as suited to the role or maybe they are, but they have a different set of PPM's, so they play the role completely differently despite the role being the same, for example an AP who has tries killer passes often is going to have more luck with players making that run for them to find, while one without that I imagine would probably work less effective as he wouldn't always go for that ball as one with the PPM.

Am I not looking in enough detail when building tactics? The reason I ask, is sometimes I'm having really mixed success with my tactics recently, so I'm wondering if I should be looking into a lot more detail instead of maybe going by what I think the player is good at or what my assistant suggests?

 

[WJ]

www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2015-tactics/328095-starting-new-club.html

I can't add too much that wasn't covered in the link already, but the TL;DR version is that I get an idea of who the best/key players in the team and what their roles/positions can be. Then I look at the next best lot and their roles, which will help piece together a formation. Finally, I'll see if the unfilled positions can be filled by the next lot of players or not. If not, I'll try and see if a different formation can work.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Don't get overly caught up by the roles a player can play. The visual can be misleading. Pay attention to what attributes are required for the role to determine if a player should be able to perform.

When creating tactic, its typically going to be more effective to have an overall concept of what you want to do (ie how you want to play) and select roles that fit that. Picking the roles that best suit the player and hoping they fit into the tactical concept is more likely to be problematic.

Don't get too caught up on shape. Certain shapes will lend themselves more effectively to certain styles of play but there are rarely absolutes.

 

[WJ]

Definitely agree with that. Sorry if it was unclear. I look at attributes and footedness only when looking at potential roles, not the assistant's recommendation.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

That does definitely help, reading this over multiple times to take it in with the Fiorentina example.
Well maybe I will use my Assistant to highlight players in certain positions for me but then go into each player and look at what stands out about them and let that help me pick the role if it fits into my team.

I'm going to go with West Ham again as I feel this season, there's a lot of options with Payet, Valencia, Lanzini, Moses, Obiang etc. and although what I think they suit, maybe their attributes will tell me otherwise.

 

[Bigpapa42]

The guide is very helpful and a great basis to build from. And ironically, Fiorentina is the club I'm toying around with at the moment, though its right from the start date.

When it comes to picking formation and roles, its a balance. You are somewhat behold to your talent. No use trying to run a flat back four if you don't have anyone who can play wide defense, a single striker formation might be a poor choice if your several best players are out-and-out strikers, etc. So pick a style of play and a shape that suit, then go from there.

The in-game descriptions of the individual roles are a good starting point but they aren't always as clear as they can be. So if you aren't sure, ask. Or find some guides to read. And then ask. What seems like a really good idea can end up becoming a tactical weakness - like playing Complete Wingbacks and wondering why you are vulnerable on the wings, or having a BWM in midfield and then wondering why your opponent always finds gaps.

West Ham is a good choice. Pretty solid squad with some dynamic players. That will give you some flexibility. If you have players that are limited (not poor, but just one-dimensional talents), it can hem you into limited options.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Yeah well I understand most roles and how they should perform, to a certain extent, most of the time I just read up on it if I am sure to double check, I've always found the players roles I understand best are midfield and defence (probably because I played there when I was younger so I just understand it a bit better) so I sometimes double check up on some other roles although some are pretty self explanatory, I think the thing I found to help me was, thinking of players you could associate to certain roles if you are never too sure which helps. Like a Poacher, being a West Ham fan, I always remember Maynard who although we only had for a brief time, fitted that role quite well, he just knew how to score, but he didn't offer much else to the team.

I always found last year I improved a lot, although that was with a particular formation and WJ will know he assisted me a lot in getting my idea right, however it is passing the knowledge I learned so well for that into others.

I know I can get it, I know what I tend to mean when making formations although sometimes it can be hard to get it right.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Figuring which players actually played that way actually very much helps when looking at roles.

The tough part, I find, is that something can seem logical at first. Take the poacher for example. Running a loan striker formation and using a poacher might seem reasonable - he is just looking to nick opportunities to score. And hey, it fits my player! But then he's isolated and doing nothing, getting **** ratings most matches because he contributed so little. Well, that's a poacher. Put him in a role that links him more and give him more attacking support, boom! All the difference.

And each role has to work with others, so the added difficulty can be the effect a change has on others. Forums are a great tool in that regard, because when something isn't clicking as it should, posting and asking for help (as long as there is detail) is really helpful.

I've eyed up West Ham a couple of times so I'm curious how you get on and what you end up going with.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Okay so I've analysed my squad. These are the first things I've noticed I have 2 very good CB's in Reid and Ogbonna while Tomkins is a very good back up. Cresswell is a brilliant left back in all departments which I think I'm going to have to utilise as what is hampering me, is my strikers, Carroll and Sakho only really look to fit the Target Man role, they were both promising Advanced Forwards but their dribbling stands out as a problem at 11 where the role gets dribble more off of the bat (I may try to improve this area through a loan or signing if I can get some funds but we will have to wait and see). What also doesn't help is Valencia and Carroll being out for months, so I feel a striker is more urgent. My other full backs O'Brien and Jenkinson are different, Jenkinson is okay going forward but his marking and positioning worry me defensively and I don't feel like I have a half back to allow me to have two attacking full backs, O'Brien is much more solid defensively and also where Jenkinson has the Gets forward whenever possible trait, I feel any defensive role for him could be ruined by this. So if I have to use Jenkinson I think Cresswell will need a support role to make up for Jenkinson's poor defensive attributes, but O'Brien is edging this for me (something I didn't think I'd do), Tomkins can also cover this position which helps.

Midfield I'm truly blessed, DM/CM roles I have Noble who can play AP DLP/D or Regista quite comfortably, Song can play DM, Anchor, CM/D/S all quite well so he could be a good option when fit. Kouyate is a stand out for me, he can play BWM DM and Anchor very well, so if I have one DM (which I am leaning towards) he would be the perfect screening player as an Anchor, however if I use two depending on the other partner it could change what I use. Next is Obiang, he makes a good DLP/D, CM/D and DM so looking likely if I can't use Song and Kouyate I could have him as a DM with Noble next to him if I feel the DM is slightly too aggressive or I need more protection of my defence.

Next my more attacking midfielders is perfect for me. First Lanzini, he will come in very useful I feel, in CM/AMC he suits AP or Treq, however when I looked closer at his stats he could make a brilliant IF or Winger too. Moses and Antonio are just simple wingers in my opinion. Next Payet, this is my stand out player by a mile and he will be perfect, he can play IF AP Winger or Treq. As I'm edging towards 1 DM more I'm thinking he suits best an IF or AP on the wing, however if I used a 4231 of sorts he could do one of the roles in the AMC position. Valencia definitely stands out as more of an AMR/AML than a forward but unfortunately he is also injured, upfront he could do a job as CF but I feel his stats much better compliment an IF or even a Raumdeter however for now I won't be able to test the Raumdeter as no one else I feel can occupy that role. Last in my attacking midfield is Zarate, he can play as a Treq (if I use the 4231 formation this could become a position for the man in AMC as I have 3 players who suit it) or and AP he also suits the role of Poacher but I can't see me using two strikers considering the strength of my midfield.
Then lastly my attackers, with Carroll only suiting the TM role but being injured it leaves me with Sakho, again who I think suits the same role, my assistant recommends AF for him but the poor passing and dribbling could hamper this role for me in the long run, especially the dribbling, I may see if I can train him up in this to give me the option of both roles (same for Carroll) but I think I'm going to have to go with a TM unless I get someone in.

So I'm already leaning towards a 41221 (DM, CM's, AML and AMR) or a 4231 (DM's wide)
I'll be honest, because of the use of a target man, I almost feel I should lean towards the latter of the two as then an AMC will be next to him so could feed off of this player much more, but I have never had luck making this formation work, but maybe now is the time too! Also having two DM's could see me consider Jenkinson again as when he is on I could have two defensive minded players to cover for this.

My back four have picked itself quite easily, I've opted to give Cresswell the FB/A role to make use of his quality stats, he is very good at crossing too. The only things that worried me slightly were his off the ball and decisions, this is why I used FB/A, I'm expecting him to provide the crosses for Carroll/Sakho from the left. For now I've got O'Brien at FB/S at right back as I'm not ready to expose my defence just yet on counters! So he shouldn't venture too far forward. I have generic CD/D on my CB's of Ogbonna and Reid.

DM's I've opted for Kouyate as an Anchor in DMCL, he should sit just in front of the back four and stay there, with him on the left he should also help out when Cresswell does get forward. Next to him for now will be Noble until Song is fit (or Obiang as back up), the role for Noble is the bit I'm not sure on, he suits DLP/D or Regista, the two roles are quite similar, so I'm thinking for now, DLP/D but maybe when I'm the favourite, give him more authority and use him as a Regista. My only worry with this is I have two DM's on defend duty, so I'm going to watch this closely as I think it could isolate my DM's to my AM's, other options could be a DLP/S or again the Regista role my only worry with the DLP/S is the long shots which Noble isn't good at, while Obiang suits the DLP/D role too quite well. My other option could be to let my RB be more attacking as a result. Next my AMC's I checked Payet again and he could be a Raumdeter but I'm not sure I want this yet, not until Valencia is fit again at least, so for now I'm thinking to put him behind the striker to be near my Target Man and get the ball off of him, I'm leaning towards a Treq more than AP as the Treq does less defensively and I don't really want to see him leave the Target Man, especially with the 2 defensive duties for DM's. Next AML I'm leaning towards Lanzini, he looks perfect for here and as an IF or Winger he should be able to do a pretty good job there. I'm thinking of using IF for him as he has an overlapping full back so him coming inside could benefit a lot, while I feel making him AP would take some influence away from Payet in the final third, something I'm not too keen on as he really is the stand out player. AMR I'm thinking I should use the depth I have and use a Winger, both Moses and Antonio fit the role enough although Moses will need to work on his crossing, while Antonio is his first touch, as I'm not expecting to play fancy football I'm hoping he shouldn't be receiving balls that aren't simple so he is getting the nod ahead of Moses as crossing is going to be vital to my strikers I feel, as the IF/S is on the left and the RB is a FB/S at the moment I'm going to give him an Attack duty. Lastly I'm using TM/A for Sakho and Carroll who would probably start over him when fit.

Now for how I see the team playing, well I'm expecting the defenders to be keeping it simple, either look long for Sakho/Carroll or the more simple option to lay it off to Noble who can then look ahead, with Lanzini cutting in towards Sakho/Carroll and Payet he has three options there, an on rushing Cresswell on the left and and pacey winger on the right, he should have enough options. If we have the ball in the final third then I feel they will mostly look to give the ball to Payet, who will have Lanzini making late runs into the box with Sakho/Carroll, or Antonio and Cresswell in wide positions to get it out there to deliver for the others.

I'm expecting to come mid table so I'm going to find some games I'm weaker, others I'm stronger, as a result I could see me changing my mentality, but the team I have and the roles I feel fits a Counter strategy slightly more (maybe if I use Control, I could consider DLP/S or Regista rather than DLP/D). I'm keeping the shape as Flexible as I'm wanting players to do a bit of each but mainly concentrate on their job.

TI's is where I'm thinking I have some options, firstly Float crosses is on, I have good height in Sakho and Carroll and that should give them time to get on the end of it, while if they miss it, it could luckily land to Lanzini, Payet, Antonio coming in too. Passing I feel mixed is best, that way they can decide on going short to Noble and playing forward or go long for Sakho/Carroll. The only other TI's I'm considering at the moment are to exploit flanks, making the width wider, early crosses (this depends on how often I have someone in the box though as I don't want them crossing to no one) and get stuck in (this one is because I feel I have good strong defensive players), another I'm looking at is drop deeper as this may give the DM's a bit of space now and then but it's not something I'm worried about just yet! Oh and another now I think of it, could be direct passing, but I'd worry this could bypass Noble who does offer a lot.

Also lastly looking at my side, I need to consider my subs, if I bring on Obiang, for Noble it is fine but Kouyate I have a different role of DM/D as he doesn't fit the Anchor role or use BWM/D next to him, so I'd possibly consider watching this in matches as I don't want it hurting us. (if I use BWM/D I'd be tempted to swap sides with Noble) Also Collins and Henry I feel can leave now as I have some good youth CB's in Burke and Oxford, while I would be happy to see Jelavic leave, but first I need Valencia/Carroll fit and preferably another striker, although I may stick to a TM player as now I have laid out the squad I feel it could be quite nice!

I haven't played a game yet, so that will be my next update!

 

[Tomas360]

I have been using your most recent advice, and it is great! I haven't lost a game with West Ham. Sakho has 6 games (12 goals). I'm also using the Opposition Instructions from the Guide to Football manager, website.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

I have been using your most recent advice, and it is great! I haven't lost a game with West Ham. Sakho has 6 games (12 goals). I'm also using the Opposition Instructions from the Guide to Football manager, website.

Nice to see it has worked, I've only played one game myself and although the game had it's moments where I was worried when being on the defensive, we saw the game out as 3-0 winners. I found Antonio impressed me most with 2 goals in the game. However Moses, Jenkinson and Adrian didn't start for me so haven't really seen them in action, the home game I'm probably going to use Moses instead of Antonio, Jenkinson instead of O'Brien and Adrian instead of Randolph just to make sure they can all do a job, but Moses crossing really does worry me haha!

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Just to add to this, two games in and it looks promising. I'm not expecting this group of players to win the Europa or the league, but I feel like I should be competitive and have half a chance against most teams.

Although I haven't had the best opposition in Europa FC (I think FM makes this team up based on the leagues I have open haha), but both wins were 3-0. I'm more pleased about firstly the clean sheets, secondly the manner of my goals, they are coming at the moment from what I expect.

In the first game, although my memory is hazy of the game, Antonio scored two goals, one from a cross from Cresswell at left back, it just looped over Sakho's head, but there was Antonio ready for the tap in, that goal was my first thought of, my team are doing something I expected and described in my post of looking at players. For the second game I decided to rotate, instead of my usual

Randolph (GK -D)
Cresswell (FB-A)
Ogbonna + Reid (CB-D)
O'Brien (FB-S)
Kouyate (A-D)
Noble (DLP-D)
Lanzini (IF-S)
Payet (T-A)
Antonio (W-A)
Sakho (TM-A)

I decided to use Adrian in goal, Jenkinson for O'Brien, Tomkins for Reid, Burke for Ogbonna, Kouyate for Obiang (as a result of this I changed the role to DM-D) and Moses for Antonio.

This performance was a bit more assured, the opposition although having about 60% of the possession, they did not test us (I am starting to think if I use Kouyate, I could be better being a little more adventurous with Noble's role, maybe just changing him to support, or possibly trying RPM or Regista. Then the goals. This is where it all matched as I saw. The first goal was a penalty, but the way we won the penalty was what I was happy with, Moses made a run down to the byline with the ball, crossed near post and the on rushing Sakho was pushed down to win a penalty with Noble put home. Then I had an unfortunate injury to Lanzini (nothing bad but his condition dropped a lot and I'd rather not risk key players this early) Moses switched to his position and Antonio came on back in his usual winger spot. The second goal came from a cross from the edge of the area from Antonio, he found Moses completely unmarked at the back post who just tapped it in, 2-0. The third was an attack down the left of the pitch, Moses had the ball on the edge of the area but was tightly marked by their defender, Cresswell was right behind though, just as he should be with his attack duty, ready to overlap, but before he could Moses passed back to Cresswell and their defender immediately went running for the ball, leaving Moses again completely unmarked and Cresswell gave the ball straight back to him and Moses smashed it into the opposite corner.

Every goal in the game, made me see exactly why it was working with the combinations I've had, the Treq hasn't done a lot, but just having him next to the striker gives the striker someone to keep the ball with easily until support arrives.

Sorry for always adding to this post but I almost feel if I explain it, it is not only making me feel better, but if others read it, then they may just realise what others are always trying to teach to others when they ask for help with tactics!

 

[Bigpapa42]

That's exactly why taking the time to post how you're doing with it, what's working, etc, is helpful. Others read and can see the experimentation. Please keep going with the updates

 

[Conflictinbanno]

That's exactly why taking the time to post how you're doing with it, what's working, etc, is helpful. Others read and can see the experimentation. Please keep going with the updates

I will do, it's weird but I almost find talking about it is also helping myself, like I'm almost understanding it a little more, like the fact I'm thinking when Kouyate plays as an Anchor, albeit after one game, there's questions I have over why the two performances were the same score but different defensively, so I could opt for a DM every time, or I could try experimenting with Nobles role or possibly having Jenkinson more attacking.

I think so far I'm happy with how it is going though, it won't get a proper test until the season starts I imagine! That's when I think my defence will be watched a lot more closer. And also how the game pans out, before I use to rely on OI's from the AM whilst now I might be a little more proactive and think it through myself looking at players closely.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I will do, it's weird but I almost find talking about it is also helping myself, like I'm almost understanding it a little more, like the fact I'm thinking when Kouyate plays as an Anchor, albeit after one game, there's questions I have over why the two performances were the same score but different defensively, so I could opt for a DM every time, or I could try experimenting with Nobles role or possibly having Jenkinson more attacking.

I think so far I'm happy with how it is going though, it won't get a proper test until the season starts I imagine! That's when I think my defence will be watched a lot more closer. And also how the game pans out, before I use to rely on OI's from the AM whilst now I might be a little more proactive and think it through myself looking at players closely.

Talking about each decision actually does really help. Its almost like you need to justify each change you make, so you have to ensure there is logic behind it before you just go ahead and switch something. Its a great approach to making sure you doing things carefully and logically. Gave some advice in another thread to write out the reasons and logic behind the formation, approach, each role, and each TI. I personally find it quite helpful.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Talking about each decision actually does really help. Its almost like you need to justify each change you make, so you have to ensure there is logic behind it before you just go ahead and switch something. Its a great approach to making sure you doing things carefully and logically. Gave some advice in another thread to write out the reasons and logic behind the formation, approach, each role, and each TI. I personally find it quite helpful.

It does seem to help, well my defensive card has kind of been played for me now. O'Brien picked up an injury before my next game and is out for 5 to 6 months, so with Jenkinson coming into the fray and know he has a PPM of gets forward whenever possible, I need to have a more defensive minded player in the middle next to him to compensate for that (also his poor position means an extra body should help when defended), I also feel like I don't need to put him on an attack duty, as his PPM encourages it already, as a result I will keep Noble on DLP-D. Then depending on if it is a hard team or not I will switch between Anchor or DM-D I think. The 3rd game again all four goals started from a cross, my winger scored a hat trick and got an assist too so a pretty perfect game, I have a concern with the Treq not being involved as much as maybe I'd like, but at the moment, it is working quite well so I don't want to change it!

 

[WJ]

A little bit of thinking is sometimes all that's needed. You'll see many tactical threads these days doing the same... asking people questions to get them to start thinking about their tactic.

Keep an eye on the Treq. He may not be that involved, but see if he's contributing indirectly. For instance, pulling defenders away from the Striker... that sort of thing. It may be a case of the gap between the deeper (2x DMs?) midfielders and the Treq is a bit too big. Then again, if it's working right now, don't necessarily change it, but be aware of it at least.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

A little bit of thinking is sometimes all that's needed. You'll see many tactical threads these days doing the same... asking people questions to get them to start thinking about their tactic.

Keep an eye on the Treq. He may not be that involved, but see if he's contributing indirectly. For instance, pulling defenders away from the Striker... that sort of thing. It may be a case of the gap between the deeper (2x DMs?) midfielders and the Treq is a bit too big. Then again, if it's working right now, don't necessarily change it, but be aware of it at least.

That is exactly my thoughts at the moment, I think he does help out pulling players away for definite although it seems my goals are being scored by the Winger and Inside Forward. If it does become an issue, maybe in games where I'm losing the ball just too often then I could always try an AP or AM possibly, also the 2 DM's roles I could look at. I will only worry about that if it becomes an issue though, for now it seems to be coping pretty well and it's good having someone right next to the striker at all times, which could suggest I'm better off using one of the DM's to plug that gap now and then!

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Another 2 games of Europa qualifying done and again, the tactic is working well I feel, but these are all teams who are a little worse off. However there was one loss, but it was the second leg, I played some younger players in defence and gave Jelavic a run out up front. Performance wise it wasn't too bad, conceded from a corner and just had no luck in front of goal.

The last game though, sort of helped me a lot more. I tried to watch the Trequarista a lot more, as I stated he wasn't featuring much, or at least I thought. What it really was, is he is normally the player who creates the space for the wingers and either finds them with a pass, or knock it back to one of the DM's who feeds the wide players, he's actually just involved at the start of the move a lot more, he also is as I though, receiving the ball from the TM knock downs. To top it off, he scored a wonderful solo effort, which was nice for viewing. My other two goals were all created out wide again, so once more confirming what I expect the tactic to do, the first was a deep cross from my RB, straight to the back post area of the 6 yard box where my IF headed home. The other goal was a cross from the byline from my Winger who picked out the TM at the near post to slot home. However I did concede which again showed my slight fear of having Jenkinson over O'Brien at RB (where I don't have much choice due to injury to the latter this is something I'm considering for games where it looks to pose a problem), Jenkinson bombs forward a lot, despite being on a Support duty and I think it is mainly down to his PPM, where he had bombed forward and the DLP was in and around the edge of the area but a little deeper, they countered from a cross straight down the right of the pitch and managed to score from a cross. As a result if it is showing as an issue in a game, I may have to consider a role that sits even deeper or maybe use a cover role on the right CB to cover if he does go forward, right now it isn't an issue but something I'm going to try and remember!