Tactic Help

[Igneos79]

There's no problem with keeping things the way they are. There's a reason these are the defaults for a Standard mentality. He'll have average/medium tempo which he's increasing a bit with higher (not high) tempo. The base/default passing for Standard mentality is also mixed everywhere.

Yes, I know. But I doubt he will have success with it. Increasing tempo will make his shorter passess less accurate, decreasing it wil render direct passing useless, and his team will try both. Changing width also, changing any TI for that matter. That's why usually people pick a style.

 

[WJ]

Yes, I know. But I doubt he will have success with it. Increasing tempo will make his shorter passess less accurate, decreasing it wil render direct passing useless, and his team will try both. Changing width also, changing any TI for that matter. That's why usually people pick a style.

That's pure guesswork. You're still forcing heavy restrictions on yourself and others and it's completely unnecessary. He only increased the tempo a bit. Not by a lot and it still can't even be classified as high tempo so it won't render anything useless.

He has picked a style, which is not to limit his players' passing range. They won't be playing at 100mph with a standard mentality either. There's no need to force a style on anyone.

The OP at least has a vision of how he wants to play, so let him play the way he wants to. If he wanted tiki-taka, he'd have said that. If he wanted the Sam Allardyce special, he'd have said that. In both cases, he'd have tried to set it up like that. He's done well enough so far in setting up according to his vision and even noticed the RPM issue of not being attacking enough. He's putting effort into it and that's great.

I see you do this in every thread where you force a style, but you never explain why you "should" select the multiple TIs you recommend. So what's left is people will either ignore it or blindly copy the advice, not knowing if, how or why it works.

 

[Igneos79]

You should really write a guide about creating tactics. I often pick a setting just to find out it's not working as good as it sounded in my head. Some clarification on what is good for what would make a nice guide, if you are willing?

 

[WJ]

You should really write a guide about creating tactics. I often pick a setting just to find out it's not working as good as it sounded in my head. Some clarification on what is good for what would make a nice guide, if you are willing?

There are good guides out there, though none that cover everything in one, except for maybe THoG's guide. Writing a complete guide, covering everything is almost impossible. Context is important and there are just so many different ways of creating tactics. Very high tempo and very short passing will probably not work with West Ham, being not technically and mentally skilled enough and coming up against much better teams. It'd be unfair to dismiss it, because it can work for Barca. Just an example.

Look no further than the SI tactics forum for some great guides. They've mostly been written by people with a much better and deeper knowledge of game and tactical side of football than me.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

I was recommended to read Guide To Football Manager by the Miles who is in charge at SI so I guess that would work with something to read through, it is thorough and I do use it but it probably delves deeper into it than I could ever imagine.

Thank you WJ for your help. I'll be honest, whenever I have tried to make a limited style with West Ham, be it direct like Allardyce or passing around like Barca used to, I found it near on impossible to get working, this could be because I was getting the roles wrong, it may have been the players, I could never quite tell, but that's why I came here for assistance because I wanted to make a tactic that I could see working in my highlights and in the majority of games I've played they look to be playing exactly how I imagined they should. It was fairly successful against Man City, Man Utd and Arsenal in me giving them a very hard game, then I lost to Everton but my defence were making mistakes and had poor morale throughout and lost 3-1, but they bounced back with a 4-1 win against Fulham. So overall I'm pleased as it actually is working, it could probably be improved slowly, getting the right role to get the best out the supporting midfielder and also tightening the defence more would be nice, but some of this could be down to a lack of world class players in my squad.

 

[WJ]

Guide to football manager is not an official guide, but it is comprehensive and quite accurate, so it's a decent guide to read.

I'm glad I could help with your vision of how to play.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Hmm I guess it is just highly known to help so they use it.

Thanks, maybe from this step I can slowly start to learn how to utilise how to create other tactical styles, as in my first season I used some crazy 4-1-1-3-1 formation and it saw Valencia and Noble being unplayable on their day, but I think it only succeeded because teams didn't know how to battle against it and the second season they all found the weakness in the formation was utilising wide midfielders on the counter attack and if I moved the attacking wide players it hindered the formations attacking threat and with my main striker out early for 9 months I quickly had to adjust but my 4-2-3-1 replacement just wasn't working but I'm starting to see I probably had different instructions causing problems for me.

Hoping I can do a defensive formation which really is about not conceding and potentially thinking of seeing out a game next and a potential attacking formation with two strikers a bit like West Ham used at the start of the season in the diamond formation. It's just deciding how I want each one to play out too!

 

[WJ]

The fact that you had a clear idea of how you wanted to play helped. As long as you do that, you're on the right track.

The key is to set up the basics according to your vision and then fine-tune from there, like your RPM to AP example and the DLP being on top of the Anchor.

Apart from players gaining match fitness, this is the other reason why friendlies can be very important.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Yeah well I might try and think how I want them, for the defensive one, in my personal opinion I'd see the best way for that is to keep the ball as if you have the ball your opponent can't score and then I'd also think the other best way for this is to keep shape for when you do lose the ball, but you want your defence more protected, my only fear is it will be isolated up front so I'm thinking maybe a 4-2-2-1 with 2 holding mid's and 2 wide mid's and 1 attacking mid to support the striker. I'll look into it all properly though but I'd probably play slowly and keep the ball as much as possible and take as few risks as possible!

Then I'd imagine the 4-4-2 diamond I am thinking of is to try to get the ball into the box to the strikers as much as I possibly can with attack minded full backs like my main formation, so it would just be about tweaking my midfield players to get a balance right, unfortunately I'm in February so I can't really test them properly, so I may hold out until this season is over or just not use them much. I never really thought about changing my Anchor man to a DLP as I thought as a DLP he'd really leave the defence but as I've watched more I've noticed he stays well positioned all game!

 

[WJ]

Yeah well I might try and think how I want them, for the defensive one, in my personal opinion I'd see the best way for that is to keep the ball as if you have the ball your opponent can't score and then I'd also think the other best way for this is to keep shape for when you do lose the ball, but you want your defence more protected, my only fear is it will be isolated up front so I'm thinking maybe a 4-2-2-1 with 2 holding mid's and 2 wide mid's and 1 attacking mid to support the striker. I'll look into it all properly though but I'd probably play slowly and keep the ball as much as possible and take as few risks as possible!

Then I'd imagine the 4-4-2 diamond I am thinking of is to try to get the ball into the box to the strikers as much as I possibly can with attack minded full backs like my main formation, so it would just be about tweaking my midfield players to get a balance right, unfortunately I'm in February so I can't really test them properly, so I may hold out until this season is over or just not use them much. I never really thought about changing my Anchor man to a DLP as I thought as a DLP he'd really leave the defence but as I've watched more I've noticed he stays well positioned all game!

For your defensive tactic, don't feel that you HAVE to have an AMC to support the striker. A CM/A can do that too. It depends what you want from the supporting player.

To me, mentality = risk taking. So lower mentality will see fewer risks taken in terms of forward runs, passes, tackles, closing down, shooting etc.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

For your defensive tactic, don't feel that you HAVE to have an AMC to support the striker. A CM/A can do that too. It depends what you want from the supporting player.

To me, mentality = risk taking. So lower mentality will see fewer risks taken in terms of forward runs, passes, tackles, closing down, shooting etc.

I will have a look over the tactic to see what fits best once I do it and have a read through the position instructions again when setting it up as I guess I could find I get more from a CM/A than I do an AMC.

I like your description of the mentality, it's a nice simple way of putting it. Makes more sense in terms of if you change it to Attacking from Standard they will increase how much they do each thing that could involve in you either losing the ball or getting booked or players drifting out of position.

 

[WJ]

I will have a look over the tactic to see what fits best once I do it and have a read through the position instructions again when setting it up as I guess I could find I get more from a CM/A than I do an AMC.

I like your description of the mentality, it's a nice simple way of putting it. Makes more sense in terms of if you change it to Attacking from Standard they will increase how much they do each thing that could involve in you either losing the ball or getting booked or players drifting out of position.

I'll give you a simple example.

A FB/A will always look the bomb forward. It's just what an Attack duty (in all but a few exceptions) does. However, switch from say, Defend to Attacking mentality overall and you'll notice it in his behaviour. On attack mentality, he'll throw caution to the wind and bomb forward early like when your Anchor has the ball in your own half. On defend mentality, he'll still bomb forward, but just when there's less risk like when the ball is now with your AP/A in their half.

Same role, same duty. Less risk. Same applies to passing etc.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

I'll give you a simple example.

A FB/A will always look the bomb forward. It's just what an Attack duty (in all but a few exceptions) does. However, switch from say, Defend to Attacking mentality overall and you'll notice it in his behaviour. On attack mentality, he'll throw caution to the wind and bomb forward early like when your Anchor has the ball in your own half. On defend mentality, he'll still bomb forward, but just when there's less risk like when the ball is now with your AP/A in their half.

Same role, same duty. Less risk. Same applies to passing etc.

Thanks, I never really thought about that quite like it, I always thought it just meant they'd attack so I guess that is why with a Standard mentality with my AML/A and AMR/A they are looking to go forward a lot, but still helping out at the defensively a little more but can get caught on quick counters as I have close down more as a PI. It's amazing how once you think about it a lot more simpler it seems a lot clearer. I think I've been over complicating the game ever since it changed from sliders all these years!

 

[WJ]

It's very easy to create a basic tactic, if you understand how things work. The fine-tuning/optimising is where the real work is. That's the difference between being successful and being dominant, I think.

 

[Conflictinbanno]

It's very easy to create a basic tactic, if you understand how things work. The fine-tuning/optimising is where the real work is. That's the difference between being successful and being dominant, I think.

I have noticed this definitely. Obviously you will get games where you might get a keeper in unstoppable form but I think I've learnt more with this tactic than I have in a long time playing Football Manager, it took me ages to get used to it. Like I've managed to get a lot more out of my box to box midfielder by having them pass shorter in their PI, not sure why but now I'm seeing them involved a lot more in build ups of attacks as they seem to be showing for the ball and quickly moving it on which is nice!

Just need to work on my other two tactics, but I've had a 4 match winning run since which is good to see and definitely needed to get myself back in the top half of the table before the end of the season!

I did find my defensive tactic was potentially too defensive, so may try to make a more counter based tactic to try to have more of a game plan, just need to work out exactly what I want it to be.

 

[WJ]

Yeah, you will get games where things just aren't going to plan. Making adjustments in-game or just having a plan B ready will help immensely.

 

[Igneos79]

Thanks, I never really thought about that quite like it, I always thought it just meant they'd attack so I guess that is why with a Standard mentality with my AML/A and AMR/A they are looking to go forward a lot, but still helping out at the defensively a little more but can get caught on quick counters as I have close down more as a PI. It's amazing how once you think about it a lot more simpler it seems a lot clearer. I think I've been over complicating the game ever since it changed from sliders all these years!

I would recommend looking at the sticky on this forum if you have doubts about roles and duties and fluidity, rather then listen to wj's weather forecast...

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Yeah, you will get games where things just aren't going to plan. Making adjustments in-game or just having a plan B ready will help immensely.

That is definitely what I am hoping for, especially as I don't have lethal attackers, so it could be common to see stray shots from Valencia/Zarate/Carroll/Ben Arfa/Sakho. So I'm hoping I can have a tactic more based to put them into a position where it is harder to miss and also have one which is more thinking I do not want to concede.

Next I just need to improve how I find players, I tend to use my scout reports but some times definitely scared I'm missing out on a gem when I look at some of the players stats, but I'd guess with that you need to think about the role they are playing and if the stats make a perfect combo. At least now I will be buying to fit into my tactic which is nice rather than looking at someone and thinking, they are good.

 

[WJ]

I would recommend looking at the sticky on this forum if you have doubts about roles and duties and fluidity, rather then listen to wj's weather forecast...

You're not being helpful toward him. I've given him a clear way on how to check what I'm saying, so he can feel free to check it out himself, rather than just take my word for it. I always try and explain clearly why I'm saying something.

 

[Igneos79]

You're not being helpful toward him. I've given him a clear way on how to check what I'm saying, so he can feel free to check it out himself, rather than just take my word for it. I always try and explain clearly why I'm saying something.

I think the sticky is clear enough. You are talking about football, not programming, the sticky is about coding of the game. The sticky states that with balanced team shape fullbacks do their basic duty, defend, plus support, which is why you should give them a support duty. It's all there. Of course you can give them an attack duty, but it's against the coding, and the ME will punish you, just like it will punish you for every other mistake you make. I have no issue with your advices, or how you explain them, and tend to agree with most of it, but you may be instructing people wrong without being aware of your mistake. That's why I wouldn't suggest going against game coding, and pointed him at the sticky. The weather forecast was a joke.