[Tactical Discussion] Plug, Manage and Play
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Goalkeeper
The more modern Sweeper Keeper suits this the tactic perfectly because we're playing with a high line. However I think in Mandanda I have someone who's better a playing the default Goalkeeper role. The good thing about the default Goalkeeper role is that the role adapts to any starting strategy that you set for the team. Actually during pre-season I did see him make sense of opponent long balls and still came out to collect. The goalkeeper role keeps it simple with his low risk defend duty which suits me just fine. The whole point of the defensive unit is to keep things simple and play it safe.
Central Defenders
With the "hole" in front of the central defence covered I've selected identical roles for the defenders. I don't need a stopper and I don't need a cover role. With a defence duty they already do what I want them to do. They pass around safely, recycle possession in attack and of course do their main purpose; stop the opponents attacks.
Ball playing defenders want to participate in the attacks and work his way further upfield. That's not what I am looking for. The central defenders are there to lay off to a more creative player or send it out wide. The limited defender is too primitive for my liking. He won't try and maintain the attack. Sometimes when selecting roles you can almost rule out the ones you don't want first and then your left with the default.
I've left them on default as they already fulfill the tasks I need them to do. I have not selected Play Shorter because with the attacking mentality they already play short passes. Like I mentioned earlier I have nothing against the central defenders playing a direct ball from time to time. Actually I think it's necessary so you don't limit them to one kind of pass if they can spot a runner upfield. I've not changed tackling as they have a Vinnie Jones type in front of them doing all the dirty work. I haven't' changed their closing down either as I can't have them rushing out of position. With the offside trap selected I prefer they work as a duo. Their instructions stay as default :
- Dribble Less Often
- Shoot Less Often
- Fewer Risky Passes
- Hold Position
Fullbacks
When playing an attacking tactic it's very tempting to play with fullbacks on attacking duty, watching them bomb down the flanks like Coleman, Coentrao, Baines, Alves, Alaba, Lahm, Alba or Marcelo. Don't get me wrong, I do love football when it's really attacking and almost overloading the opponents with runs. However the defence becomes very vulnerable when both fullbacks bomb forward. One of the things you always need to remember when creating a new tactic is the balance (as mentioned previously) in defence and attack. Although I love attacking football I am actually quite a cautious manager in that respect.
I'm going to go with Fullback role on Support because I want to have a solid defence and leave the creativity and the forward runs up to the attacking unit. Even though their "only" on support they still overlap (I think the utilizing a DMC allows them to do that) and they, together with the DMC, scoop up any loose balls but on the flanks. Their contributions in the attacking phase is overlaps without taking risks but providing width. When they do overlap I do like them to cross. But I play with Work Ball Into Box which conflicts with just that so I have instructed the fullbacks to cross more so they at least try and override the team instruction slightly. The reason why I need them to cross is because I expect there to be quite a few players in the box once the fullback gets upfield for a cross.
Additionally I'm assigning Stay Wider and Run Wide With Ball so they keep the width whilst going forward. They always need to be available on the flanks. Width is really important as I mentioned earlier so you stretch the opponent to create space. With their support duty they'll be on mixed passing so they can either play short or direct and just send in a cross into the box.
- Stay Wide
- Run Wide With Ball
- Cross More Often
- Cross From Deep
Defensive Midfielder
I refer you to post #15
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davidbarros2
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justified, is the fluid approach enough to use the 5x5 system? there are no mentality or creative freedom ticking. don't player roles and duties take part in ths 5x5 system?
I think you might have misunderstood.
Fluid is the 5x5 system. Here's how it describes it in-game :
To break it down even more we'll take a step back through the versions of FM when we have numbered sliders. A Fluid system, as FM now calls it, is the same as putting these numbered values on sliders :
GK : 8
DC : 8
FB : 8
DMC : 8
MC : 12
AML/AMR : 12
FC : 12
Those numbers are based on just have "common sense" roles. The mentality values are given depending on roles and position on the field. If I was to have an attacking fullback on left then the values change slightly :
GK : 8
DC : 8
DR : 8
DL : 12
DMC : 8
MC(s) : 8
MC(a) : 12
AML/R : 12
FC: 12
The DL is now part of the attacking unit and the more defensive MC is part of the defensive unit. Cool huh?
EDIT : Added this to the mentality post to avoid any confusion
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davidbarros2
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but... CD's are always on defensive duty... full backs even on suport... if we were putting that in numbers perhaps the CD's and DL's have diferent numbers, but both belong to the defensive unit. My point is, SI removed the sliders and customization, without further tweaking, can we accept that fluid system is (does what's supposed in) the 5x5 system? 'Cause if you change a DL to attack, without changing the duty of the MC, and put fluid instruction, are we having 5x5 system - as said in the fluid description - or are we having a 4x6 system?
keep up the thread, loving it
keep up the thread, loving it
I'm only writing what I see on screen by testing. I can safely say that Fluid is the 5x5 System of old. It could only work if the units were on the same mentality otherwise it wouldn't be Fluid anymore. The only different between the DC's and FB's is what happens when you switch their duties. If you set both FB's to Defend the only thing that happens is that their passing gets shortened but their mentality is still part of the defensive unit. It's just they rather pass it short then direct. If you set both to attack then it depends what you have in midfield. Obviously if you're using a double pivot (Two DMC's or Two MC's without attacking duties) because you have strong fullbacks then you could get away with attacking duties for the fullbacks to make them part of the attacking unit which switches the double pivot to part of the defensive unit.
No if you set DL to attack you're "submitting" him as part of the attacking unit so one of the attacking unit needs to go to the defensive unit to keep it as 5x5.
davidbarros2
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Thanks man! Just to understand it better Keep going, you're reviving one of my favourite all time FM readings
Keep going, you're reviving one of my favourite all time FM readingsThanks man! Just to understand it better
It truly was one of the most inspired pieces I've read and wwfan did a great job (bigger then I think people realize) to revolutionize the game. I was fortunate to even be mentioned in the orignal TT&F and credited with "inventing" the Swoosh defence and covering defenders. Mainly due to my admiration of Mourinho when he first landed on these shores.
davidbarros2
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Yeah, i remembre your name, i think that was credited in the nike defense article
The reason I choose Marseille for this discussion is because their squad at the start of the game fits the bill for the Furacão tactic. I just needed to tweak slightly with some of the positions from the initial screen shot. I told the board I would get to the Champions League this season, so they gave me some extra ££'s to spend on players. I had to tinker slightly with the wage budget too to fill the spaces I wanted to get players for. Obviously it was difficult to hang onto NKoulou however he agreed to stay if we achieved to secure CL next season. I'll take that!
For the defensive unit I added Diego Colotto from Espanyol for pretty much peanuts. The reason why I bought him was because I think he makes a perfect partner for Nkoulou. He's big and strong and dangerous at set peices. If i hadn't gone out for a central defender I would've probably had to settle for Fanni in central defence which isn't bad but I felt we lacked in that central area. Colotto will add great experience.
For the attacking unit I added two players. At the first glance you'd think we wouldn't need to strengthen but I decided to do a "Mourinho" and get my own little Fabregas and Costa, Ironically they turned out to be Spanish and Brazilian too. In midfield I found out that Saul from Atletico was available to loan. The new Fabregas in the making? Shame it's only a loan... And for up front I found this little fella called Luan. He's not exactly Costa physically but can handle the ball pretty well. He's extremely versatile too! Never had him on FM before so I look forward to managing him. Below is my defensive unit and my offensive unit.
Ever since I started creating my own tactics back in 2012 I've always made sure that players play in the hole and create runs down the 4th line. Looking at the two pictures above you can see exactly the creativity, the cleverness to find space and the willingness to run which I require for the Furacão tactic. In the hole in the 3rd line we should find the teams playmaker type who can dictate the attack. One of the best players on the planet at doing this is Christian Eriksen. When Spurs snapped him up I was majorly jealous because I would've loved to have him at Liverpool. Sure we took Coutinho instead but Eriksen has the ability and potential to be a world great. If Spurs fail to get CL I can't see why he'd stay there. It doesn't matter where across the attacking midfield Eriksen plays, whether it be right left or central, he owns that 3rd line. He won't take a run deep but he relies on other players to do so. Eriksen is the type of player which is crucial to any team. However you have to be careful so you don't have too many players dipping off the 4th line into the 3rd because otherwise play becomes stale. The ball will go from side to side but never deep because there is no runners running from deep penetrating that 4th line.
The philosophy (popular word these days so I'm going with it) has to be to create space by moving to exploit it. In the 3rd and 4th line there has to be heavy movement so they that one line can take advantage of another. If there is a lot of movement in the 4th the 3rd can take advantage, if there is loads of movement in the 3rd the 4th and 2nd can take advantage etc etc. If there is no movement then the defensive unit will just pass from side to side.
I mentioned earlier that this is the problem Man Utd have this season. Too many space players and not enough runners. Originally I thought that's why Falcao and Di Maria were bought to the club. But only LVG will know what he's trying to do however when I see Di Maria, van Persie, Rooney and Mata all playing along the 3rd line with no runners beyond.. That makes me question the man slightly.
Anyways back on topic. The idea of the Furacão is that there should be a few players in the hole on the 3rd line and around them there should be players threatening the opponent with runs from deep and out wide. That's why when going through the defensive unit I explained I need my backs to keep width so when we spread we open up space for these runs. I also want to lure the opponents central defence away from their position creating even more space but that'll be revealed when I'll post about the attacking unit.
And so the Vultures Start Circling
The more success you have as a club the more interest your players are going to attract from bigger clubs. The difficult part of taking a club back to former glories, especially one that is not in the Champions League, is the lure of that exact competition from other clubs. As a January transfer window goes by I had to fight off teams for my players. Firstly, Nkoulou has been hot since the get go and that has not gone unnoticed by the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal who have both had bids in. I promised Nkoulou we'd secure CL football next season so he decided to wait until the summer to decide. I would've probably taken £16-17m +30% sell on for him as I would probably find adequate cover for him plus he was bought for £3m from Monaco 3 seasons ago so that's a really good profit. Arsenal came closest to that valuation but still fell short.
Next was Payet who voted the best French player behind Pogba for the season. That prompted City and Real Madrid to send their scouts (slags) and although Pellegrini was quoted saying "We'll see" to the media I never got more then an enquiry for him. Seeing as it was City/Real Madrid I said I wanted at least £27m. It was the second best French player we're talking about! City quickly withdrew but Payet wanted a chat. Again I said we'd achieve CL football next season. He, like Nkoulou, decided to stay. Brilliant.
And then there was Ayew. Voted the 2nd best African player behind Yaya Toure. Cue Liverpool coming in for him. Ayew never actually wanted to chat about the speculation of Liverpool. Maybe because Marseille is his favored team? With Liverpool playing 3-4-2-1 on this update I can see the appeal from Rodgers. He'd do a great job for them down the left. Because I want a good relationship with Liverpool (due to me being a fan of course) I would let him go but a bid never materialized. Even Roma sent their scouts but no bid there either.
I even had interest from Ajax for Romao in the DMC role. It was probably mostly because of his performance in the tackle. He was averaging about 13 TPG (Tackles per Game). But they must of gotten a defensive midfielder from somewhere else as their interest cooled. Romao is 30 years old so cashing in on him now would of not been a problem.
All in all it was a successful time but I am finding the stresses of one on one chats a bit daunting. I'm constantly holding down the right mouse button over my answer for 10 seconds before I left go because I'm so hesitant. I do want to be a bit of a ******* and say "Do like you're told" but player power is as evident in FM as it's becoming in real life.
However I didn't want to seem too much like a push over so when Gignac complained about my team talks I just told him like it was. "I was harsh because the team played like ****". He felt that was unacceptable. Ok then. Reserves, £5m price tag, CSKA bid, gone. Ever since then, it might be a coincidence, but the team responded really well to team talks. I like to think it was down to my actions and bringing a fear factor to the Marseille team. Gignac's departure was perfectly fine for me. My Brazilian Boy Luan was doing the business in Ligue 1 scoring from the left flank and also playing as a striker up front.
The next post I will delve into the "Chain" players for The Furacão.
The "Chain" Players
The False Nine
Earlier on in the thread we talking about the balance in the team and having that balance pivot in the centre. Now we need to delve into the more creative type player, the players who chain the defensive and attacking unit together. When playing with a lone striker up front without a support player behind in the AMC spot it's a good idea to keep him on a support role. Reason for this is so he isn't too advanced upfield because then he becomes isolated and not part of the play.
Back in the summer of 2012 the Spain side you see in the picture thrashed Italy 4-0 in the final. I must stress that 4-0 was flattering and throughout the finals I thought, apart from the final, that the Spanish were quite boring to watch. Hence why I don't like Tiki-Taka. It's boring. However Del Bosque had before the finals a quite interesting question to solve. Who plays up front? He opted to field Fabregas as a False Nine. Now this isn't anything new. False nines have existed for years. Sometimes there's been a cross between them and a Trequartista but the concept of a more creative player playing further up but dropping deep into midfield is not revolutionary.
Back in FM12 when I created a 4-3-3 with WBA I was inspired to try a False Nine concept. It was all the talk on the message boards across the Football Manager Community. Why? Cause the role didn't exist so it was all about who could "create" the role manually using pre-set roles. I went for a Complete Forward with heavily edited player instructions to create this False Nine role. However now in FM we have the role already so I don't have to worry about it. The "simple" idea behind the False Nine I created back in FM12 was that he drops deep into the hole (3rd line) opening up space of for runners to run into. It worked perfectly well with two Inside Forwards who would bomb into the space he created and score.
During the half season with Marseille I've tried different roles for the striker. The closest role to a False Nine is a Trequartista because he fills all the offensive requirement however defensively he's about as useful as a chocolate kettle. Everybody in the team has to help defensively and close down the opposition hard. The Defensive Forward was the opposite. He worked really hard but lacked the creativity needed, the Complete Forward stood too high upfield and was too selfish. I excluded any tests with a Target Man role. The team focuses too much on getting the ball to him. Which takes me to what I originally wanted to play, the False Nine.
As I mentioned in the Team Instructions part, I didn't choose Roam From Position as a team Instruction because I wanted to set the instruction myself and because I want a lot of movement between the 3rd and 4th line I will only edit the strikers Instruction by adding Roam From Position. The rest of the instructions are default because he fills the need I require from my striker. The description of the False Nine is as followed:
The False Nine, in some ways similar to a more advanced attacking midfielder/playmaker role, is an unconventional lone striker or centre-forward who drops deep into midfield. The purpose of this is that it creates problems for opposing central defenders who can either follow him - leaving space behind them for onrushing midfielders, forwards or wingers to exploit - or leave him to have time and space to dribble or pick out a pass.
- Dribble More
- More Risky Passes
- Move Into Channels
- Roam From Position
The Deep Lying Playmaker
In FM12 a lot of the game was channeled through an Advanced Playmaker on a Support duty. The reason why he was on support was because he could position himself in the whole with 4 attacking players dropping in and out of the 3rd line to cause a lot of movement and deep runs.
The idea is still somewhat the same however back in FM12 I had a flat midfield and a MC on Defesive duty. ow with a DMC he is naturally positioned further down the field. That prompted me to select a Deep Lying playmaker this time round. The reasons are fourfold. Firstly the foundation of a deeper lying playmaker is that he sits deeper in midfield and because the DMC sits deeper this will help make sure the DMC and MC's don't have too much of a gap. Remember the DMC is just a pivot, not a playmaker so he has to have options to lay off short. Secondly he contributes more defensively which'll be good to try and find balance further down the line when I tweak the tactic. Thirdly, he doesn't panic pass in the 2nd or 3rd line, he takes his time more then a Advanced Midfielder would. And lastly, his mixed passing and his ability to hit it from deeper area's means he has a bigger range then an advanced midfielder would (a la Alonso).
By playing a DLP and a F9 it means I have one defensive playmaker and one attacking playmaker who can circulate between the 1st and 4th line between them. Now that I think about it, in the spirit of balance, I technically have one defensive thinking playmaker and one more attacking.
- Shoot Less Often
- More Risky Passes
- Hold Position
I want to try and get some more tactical discussion going so I'm going to ask if anyone wanted to do some tactic testing for me? I've played up until February with Marseille, tweaking as I go along and now would like a group of 4-6 managers to test out The Furacão. There are some requirements however they're not too difficult. It's literally play and watch and chuck in tweaks if you see anything that doesn't look right. Obviously I'm testing in France already so I'd need 4-6 different league to see how it fares across different nations.
League: Any as long as it isn't France or another league selected by a Tester.
Team: Doesn't have to be a top team but do keep in mind this is an attacking mindset
How Long?: 1 season. You can holiday between matches, the feedback is based on games.
Feedback Requirement: Feedback about the tactic, matches that stood out, any tweaks you tried and worked etc.
If you leave your interest here with a team you'd like to test it with I'll add you to the list and PM the Furacão BETA tactic.
League: Any as long as it isn't France or another league selected by a Tester.
Team: Doesn't have to be a top team but do keep in mind this is an attacking mindset
How Long?: 1 season. You can holiday between matches, the feedback is based on games.
Feedback Requirement: Feedback about the tactic, matches that stood out, any tweaks you tried and worked etc.
If you leave your interest here with a team you'd like to test it with I'll add you to the list and PM the Furacão BETA tactic.
[*=center]France - Marseille - Justified
[*=center]Italy - Sassuolo - False9
[*=center]Spain - Real Madrid - Crusadertsar
[*=center]Germany - Dortmund - NJ62740
[*=center]Portugal - Porto - Davidbarros2
[*=center]England - Stoke - Mat Wakeman
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Crusadertsar
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I would be happy to test it with Real Madrid. My second choice could be Fulham FC but I dont think they would be attacking enough. Real's Squad just seems perfect for playing around with False9s and DLPs as they have some of the best players in the world to fit those roles. Also I would love to make Sami Khedira into more of a "*******" DM
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Done! Good Luck!
Done! And yes go for Real. If False9 is going for Sassuolo then I'd get a good scale there.
Done! Good luck!
EDIT : Sorry just realized that False9 has Sassuolo in Italy. Could you test in another country?
EDIT 2 : NJ62740 has gone for Dortmund instead.
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