The Chelsea Thread

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How is it disproportionate? He's needed and he's not being used. There's also a lot of people basically saying that Mata is lazy because he's not working well when he's used out of position and it seems rather unfair considering the fact that he has been incredibly patient and professional.


From the outside looking in, you'd think Mata was a four time Ballon D'Or winner with a 30 goal a season record the way some Chelsea fans have been going on about it!

But last season isn't really relevant if you're looking at defensive contributions in a system because the system is different. Rafa was happy to let Mata play with freedom, and valued his creative prowess over his defensive contributions. In his own words: "game intelligence: that is the key. He's very clever, he finds space and his quality is very good."

I think you're avoiding my original point here. My point was that when you compare both of them playing in the centre under the same system, Oscar is always a better defensive player, despite Mata's apparent effort. Although now since we've rather gone over this point a lot it's rather moot.

Well it is, because he's on par with pretty much all of our players on the wings when it comes to putting in tackles. Obviously there are lots of factors that contribute to a good defensive presence, but if you actually watch him play he has them. He is tracking back, he is chasing the ball when out of possession, he is pressing the right players at the right time.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here. I don't think he's very good defensively, and Jose Mourinho obviously doesn't think he is either, else he'd play him instead of Oscar. He's just not particularly good. Mata's main problem is positioning: if he's in the centre, he's too high up. If he's on the wing, he's usually far too narrow.

This doesn't make any sense at all and is particularly odd coming from you. It's not as if they aren't plenty of systems that we couldn't play that would give Mata the chance to shine. Yes using him in the way that would maximise his potential wouldn't work with the current system, but the sign of being a good manager is using the appropriate system at the appropriate time. Again, no one is arguing that he must play every game and we must build our system around him. What we are saying is when teams play deep against us and we look flat, maybe changing to a system that gives the 10 greater freedom might be better than just adamantly trying to grind people down or praying for Hazard to pull something out of his hat. We're asking for Jose to use the right tactics at the right time.

The real problem is that when Mata's been given his chance to shine in the centre, he's fluffed his lines. Against Palace and Steaua Bucharest he was easily your weakest attacking midfielder, against Everton he was okay but nothing particularly special, against Arsenal he was poor apart from his goal. The only team he really excelled against is, uh, Swindon. Compare that to Oscar, who at least puts in a shift if he's not having a particularly good game, and it's not such a surprise Mourinho is loathe to use him in the centre often.

Was average going forward, although he was again being asked to track back a lot against a team we should be beating at home, aka the exact situation we want to see more freedom for the 10. We've already talked about why Mata's greatest attribute is his ability to find space.

Thing is though, he DIDN'T track back much in the Palace game at all. I was watching it and thinking this at the time, so I checked up the average positions graph.

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That 10 is Mata. He played on a similar axis to Torres! He made one tackle, no interceptions, and fouled two opposition players. If that's Mata's idea of tracking back then I'd be scared of playing him regularly too!

Moreover, it just illustrated how weak your midfield is. Without Oscar zipping around in front of the duo in midfield, we broke directly through the Chelsea centre and right (Mata kept ending up on your right because Willian kept coming inside, which didn't help matters) and frankly we'd have been good value for a point. It was lucky we didn't have three midfielders, otherwise it could've got ugly.

Of course, against Stoke it DID get ugly. They played three midfielders, Mata played slightly deeper and tried to track back a little more, made 2 tackles this time round, but it still wasn't enough. You scored two - not directly linked to Mata, but we'll take it as indicative of greater attacking threat nonetheless - but Stoke scored three because you were so light in that area behind the striker. N'Zonzi and Whelan both had passing accuracy of greater than 85% because there was no pressure on them. At the other side of the pitch. Charlie Adam was pressuring Ramires (presumably because they somewhat rightly though Mikel can't do anything particularly spectacular with the ball) and put in a shift despite not playing particularly well. The two different mentalities of the attacking midfielders on either side gives an indication as to why Stoke won that game.

No he's not, apart from those games he's only been played centrally twice.

So now he's unable to influence the game unless he's playing centrally?

Totally agree, if we had a well rounded, physical striker upfront, the system would make a lot more sense. It does raise an interesting question though, which is will Mata be needed if we are going to play in this way. If we don't, our decision not to sell him and buy a top class centre forward in the summer seems baffling. You could argue the opposite though, and say that once we get a great central midfielder in, Mata will be able to be granted the additional freedom he needs to actually influence games whilst still working defensively.

If Chelsea got in someone like Guarin and a prolific striker, I think Mata's pros would outweigh the cons. With a more solid defence behind him and a striker that would allow you all to benefit from the extra chances Mata creates, then he'd definitely be worth a go in the centre. The reason I don't think Mata should be regularly playing centrally is because of personnel, not quality or potential worth to the team.
 
Right, none of you can ever complain about my long posts again.
 
What do you mean they aren't perfect fits for your system? They're both good target men, like Drogba was, and Falcao especially is a Mourinho-esque forward - strong, powerful and clinical. And plus, they'd both fit the system more than Mata, it seems, so even if they don't fit into the system as you say, they would probably still be better options than keeping Mata. As for the transfer fees and wages, I'm sure selling Mata would pretty much cover that. Basically, if Mourinho wasn't willing to use Mata effectively, he really should have sold him at the start of the season to sign a better striker than Eto'o!

No they are not, our current system demands a dynamic and mobile striker who can link up with the AM's and use his movement to drag defenders around the place. Falcao for all his great qualities is essentially a square peg in a round hole
 
No they are not, our current system demands a dynamic and mobile striker who can link up with the AM's and use his movement to drag defenders around the place. Falcao for all his great qualities is essentially a square peg in a round hole
And Mata isn't a square peg in a round hole in Mourinho's system? Higua?n was available in the summer, so you could've signed him then!




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How are they even related to our discussion?????
I'm making the point that Mata should've been sold in the summer if he wasn't going to be used properly, so you could invest in players you need - i.e. a striker who wasn't Eto'o.
 
I'm making the point that Mata should've been sold in the summer if he wasn't going to be used properly, so you could invest in players you need - i.e. a striker who wasn't Eto'o.

Name a world-class striker who is a proper fit for our system not named Rooney
 
Name a world-class striker who is a proper fit for our system not named Rooney
It's irrelevant whether or not they 'fit your system'! Mata clearly doesn't (as shown by Mourinho not playing him in his natural role), so by selling him, you could use the money to sign a striker, which would still be more advantageous on keeping him and not playing him, whether or not the new signing 'fit the system' or not. Higua?n, Falcao, Cavani, Lewandowski, Su?rez, etc. are all top strikers, and I'm sure they would grab you goals nonetheless, and I'm sure Mourinho the great pragmatist would want that from his strikers. And where are you getting all this talk about this system needing a 'dynamic and mobile' striker from? Did Mourinho say it himself? Or is it 'The Chelsea Way'?
 
It's irrelevant whether or not they 'fit your system'! Mata clearly doesn't (as shown by Mourinho not playing him in his natural role), so by selling him, you could use the money to sign a striker, which would still be more advantageous on keeping him and not playing him, whether or not the new signing 'fit the system' or not. Higua?n, Falcao, Cavani, Lewandowski, Su?rez, etc. are all top strikers, and I'm sure they would grab you goals nonetheless, and I'm sure Mourinho the great pragmatist would want that from his strikers. And where are you getting all this talk about this system needing a 'dynamic and mobile' striker from? Did Mourinho say it himself? Or is it 'The Chelsea Way'?

All of the strikers you mentioned would command huge transfer fees and/or huge wages. A **** lot of money to pay for what would be essentially square pegs in round holes ... Your arguments make no sense. It's obvious we are looking for a specific type of striker that none of the aforementioned fit, otherwise we would have bought one of them. We are not Liverpool, we don't mind spending big if the right type of player comes along
 
We are not Liverpool, we don't mind spending big if the right type of player comes along

I'm ******* struggling here to not post a "not sure if serious" meme. Come on mate you're owned by Abramovich, who is a billionaire. The exact same situation as City really. It's nothing about being Liverpool cheap, it's just that you're bankrolled like City, and play by different rules where ******* away ?50m matters much less.
 
I'm ******* struggling here to not post a "not sure if serious" meme. Come on mate you're owned by Abramovich, who is a billionaire. The exact same situation as City really. It's nothing about being Liverpool cheap, it's just that you're bankrolled like City, and play by different rules where ******* away ?50m matters much less.

I was just returning the underhand blow he gave me ... It was hardly serious
 
All of the strikers you mentioned would command huge transfer fees and/or huge wages. A **** lot of money to pay for what would be essentially square pegs in round holes ... Your arguments make no sense. It's obvious we are looking for a specific type of striker that none of the aforementioned fit, otherwise we would have bought one of them. We are not Liverpool, we don't mind spending big if the right type of player comes along
My arguments make perfect sense. But since you seem to be struggling, I'll spell it out for you again:
1. Mata is currently being wasting at the club, as he doesn't fit the Mourinho system and is on huge wages.
2. You are lacking a top striker, who would cost a large fee/wages.
3. Mata could be sold for a large fee (as well as getting rid of his wages), which would be an added bonus to getting rid of a player who Mourinho doesn't use in his system.
4. You could use that money to buy a top striker, whether or not they fit into your supposed system (which is something only you've mentioned, I might add) is irrelevant: if even if they don't fit the system, they would still be a better option than keeping Mata (because with Mata you have a player who doesn't fit the system and is in a position with enough quality/depth; with a new striker, their only downside would be they don't fit the system).
5. Comprendes?

I was just returning the underhand blow he gave me ... It was hardly serious
What underhand blow?
 
My arguments make perfect sense. But since you seem to be struggling, I'll spell it out for you again:
1. Mata is currently being wasting at the club, as he doesn't fit the Mourinho system and is on huge wages.
2. You are lacking a top striker, who would cost a large fee/wages.
3. Mata could be sold for a large fee (as well as getting rid of his wages), which would be an added bonus to getting rid of a player who Mourinho doesn't use in his system.
4. You could use that money to buy a top striker, whether or not they fit into your supposed system (which is something only you've mentioned, I might add) is irrelevant: if even if they don't fit the system, they would still be a better option than keeping Mata (because with Mata you have a player who doesn't fit the system and is in a position with enough quality/depth; with a new striker, their only downside would be they don't fit the system).
5. Comprendes?




What underhand blow?


1. Mata is not being wasted, he actually is a great player to have in certain matches where the opposition defends deep and plays for a draw, quite a few teams that employ it against us I might add. Subtle already pointed that out


2. You are making no sense at all. You are basically saying we should spend ?50m and 200k wages on a striker who wouldn't fit our system in the hope that he will score a few goals. Can't you see the two things are inter-related? If the striker doesn't fit in our system, how will he score goals playing in the same system?? Yes they might score a few goals here and there which doesn't make them any different from the strikers we already have


3. Mata can be sold for a large fee agreed, but then so can Hazard or Oscar or any WC played... doesnt mean we have to sell them if they can still play a role for us, and his wages are not that high for a club of our stature

So you are basically saying, let's see off a world-class player in Mata and reinvest all that money into a big name striker who will doesn't fit our system but MIGHT score a few more goals than our current lot but will more than likely flop. And then you are attempting to justify your stance by saying the aforementioned scenario is better than having a world-class player like Mata on the bench


I have been on this forum for quite awhile and that is the worst argument I have ever seen. Well done mate
 
1. Mata is not being wasted, he actually is a great player to have in certain matches where the opposition defends deep and plays for a draw, quite a few teams that employ it against us I might add. Subtle already pointed that out

2. You are making no sense at all. You are basically saying we should spend ?50m and 200k wages on a striker who wouldn't fit our system in the hope that he will score a few goals. Can't you see the two things are inter-related? If the striker doesn't fit in our system, how will he score goals playing in the same system?? Yes they might score a few goals here and there which doesn't make them any different from the strikers we already have

3. Mata can be sold for a large fee agreed, but then so can Hazard or Oscar or any WC played... doesnt mean we have to sell them if they can still play a role for us, and his wages are not that high for a club of our stature

So you are basically saying, let's see off a world-class player in Mata and reinvest all that money into a big name striker who will doesn't fit our system but MIGHT score a few more goals than our current lot but will more than likely flop. And then you are attempting to justify your stance by saying the aforementioned scenario is better than having a world-class player like Mata on the bench

I have been on this forum for quite awhile and that is the worst argument I have ever seen. Well done mate

1. Mata playing a bit part in games you should be able to win anyway but don't due to lack of any viable forwards is wasting him. Certain matches isn't making great use of him and considering all Mourinho has done is lower his value of a player it is wasting him.

2. That 50mil and a huge percentage of his wages could have easily been covered by the sale of Mata, you wouldn't have had to bring in Eto'o which made no real logical sense at all, he doesn't fit into your "system" any better than any other striker you have. Two strikers that were once fast and clinical but now aren't and Ba.
Scoring a few goals is exactly what Chelsea need, they have no reliable strikers in front of goal. Why complain about spending money to buy someone who isn't a perfect fit yet can and will score 20+ a season yet nothing when Chelsea buy players like Schurrle who play bit parts.

3. Makes no sense, no one was saying sell Hazard or Oscar seeing as they're both very important to the club currently. Mata isn't.
 
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