The Chelsea Thread

[Subtle]

I was talking about the playing time they're getting - it's nowhere near as important as getting a few minutes in the first team, or even on loan. I don't see that cup as an 'efficient tool for development' at all.

See I'd say the exact opposite. Having a few minutes in the first team every so often is useless for his development because he needs to be playing a lot at his age, especially when adapting to play in a new culture. All he'll learn from his cameos in the PL is that no one in the first team except Mata and the ****** centre back can pass and holy **** it's very tense playing for such a big club. Those are not the things he needs right now, in time of course he will need to learn to deal with the pressure and the expectation but atm he just needs to focus on improving as a player. Next season, if he's developed enough, you put him in for the odd appearance and let him understand what it means to play infront of a packed Bridge, but he's not good enough to play for Chelsea yet, nor is he expected to be until at least the summer. He's probably better going on loan next season, if we can find a club that will play him a lot.

All you do by taking him out of the FA Youth Cup and putting him on the bench for 90% of the season is restrict his match time, hinder his growth and pile heaps of pressure on the guy. I know it's ironic for a Chelsea fan to say this but you've got to have patience.

 

[Athe~]

Play young player like Piazon in the senior team (Who has not played any game in England and hardly had time to settle in) then his confidence will be shattered into pieces if he makes any mistakes. Introducing young players to first team is not as easy as it looks in FM. Every club does follow few steps, once in a while there will be a talent who will be ready to make a jump but on an average its a slow process.

Gee Sunil, I never said give him the full 90, I don't see where you get the FM comparison from, either. And Piazon comes from a place where you get promoted to the first team around this age, due to the mere fact that most players are sold and replacements are either very young or very old - a trend that has changed in recent times, though, with Brazilian clubs having more money recently. I don't think his confidence would be 'shattered' at all if he makes a mistake.

 

[Mike.]

See I'd say the exact opposite. Having a few minutes in the first team every so often is useless for his development because he needs to be playing a lot at his age, especially when adapting to play in a new culture. All he'll learn from his cameos in the PL is that no one in the first team except Mata and the ****** centre back can pass and holy **** it's very tense playing for such a big club. Those are not the things he needs right now, in time of course he will need to learn to deal with the pressure and the expectation but atm he just needs to focus on improving as a player. Next season, if he's developed enough, you put him in for the odd appearance and let him understand what it means to play infront of a packed Bridge, but he's not good enough to play for Chelsea yet, nor is he expected to be until at least the summer.

All you do by taking him out of the FA Youth Cup and putting him on the bench for 90% of the season is restrict his match time, hinder his growth and pile heaps of pressure on the guy. I know it's ironic for a Chelsea fan to say this but you've got to have patience.

Youth development is actually a very slow process, my coaching friend is often surprised at the insane expectations of fans when it comes to youth.

 

[sunilvk7]

Gee Sunil, I never said give him the full 90, I don't see where you get the FM comparison from, either. And Piazon comes from a place where you get promoted to the first team around this age, due to the mere fact that most players are sold and replacements are either very young or very old - a trend that has changed in recent times, though, with Brazilian clubs having more money recently. I don't think his confidence would be 'shattered' at all if he makes a mistake.

Ok Athe, to put it in simple terms he is not ready for first team as of now. And it is even harder when your team is not playing well. It is easy to integrate young player when you are winning easily.

 

[Athe~]

All you do by taking him out of the FA Youth Cup and putting him on the bench for 90% of the season is restrict his match time, hinder his growth and pile heaps of pressure on the guy. I know it's ironic for a Chelsea fan to say this but you've got to have patience.

Where exactly did I say that? =/ I said the Bolton game was, on paper, a simple-ish game where he could get a few minutes. I never said bench him for the season, nor did I say that he shouldn't play in the Youth Cup at all, but that if I was given the choice between a youth game and 20' against Bolton I'd have taken the 20 every time.

 

[Athe~]

You are wrong there about the 5 minutes, and that isnt a case of opinon vs opinion. most coaches will tell you the same for a player in Piazons stage of development. There is a general rule of thumb you follow for a player, though every player is a little different and you will have exceptions

Going on loan is the second stage, when they are better than youth/reserve but not ready for first team.

You should really do some in depth reading on this

Actually, it is a case of opinion, for a very simple reason, each country has a different way of bringing youngsters through. ****, each club has a different way of bringing them through. Each manager has his own views on youth as well.

//Edit - Kids in SA often get first-team games when they're very young due to players going to Europe at young ages. Players in Spain and in some German teams get competitive games very early due to B teams playing in the league, even if only in the second/third divisions. Some of them will, of course, fail, but a lot of them don't. If I may, I'd also use Everton as an example. Our lack of cash and depth often forced us to play youngsters and many of them performed very well. A lot of clubs in England are living in the past, preferring traditional competitions such as the youth cup itself over real competitive games when it comes to youth.

 

[Subtle]

Youth development is actually a very slow process, my coaching friend is often surprised at the insane expectations of fans when it comes to youth.

I think that part of the problem is the fact that they've cost a fair bit of money so people expect them to be in the first team after a season or so of settling in. What fans forget is that Piazon is not a £5-10m player, he's probably a £2m player at the momen; you're paying for the potential, not the immediate product.

It's a bit like the choice between buying a plain but solid meal or getting all the ingredients and making it yourself. The ingredients cost more and it will take much longer to make your dinner, but you can have it just like you want it and it can taste so very much better. Lots of people don't understand that and start shovelling half cooked chicken in their mouths after 30 minutes, then can't understand why it makes them sick.

(that was a terrible metaphor but you get what I'm going for)

 

[Mike.]

Actually, it is a case of opinion, for a very simple reason, each country has a different way of bringing youngsters through. ****, each club has a different way of bringing them through. Each manager has his own views on youth as well.

Hence i said general rule of thumb. But even then you have ignored even the basics of development. 5 minutes of first team football isnt better than 90 minutes at youth level, if the player is still at that level.

 

[Athe~]

Hence i said general rule of thumb. But even then you have ignored even the basics of development. 5 minutes of first team football isnt better than 90 minutes at youth level, if the player is still at that level.

I didn't say 90 but I didn't say 5, either. I said 20, and you've quoted me on that.

 

[Subtle]

Where exactly did I say that? =/ I said the Bolton game was, on paper, a simple-ish game where he could get a few minutes. I never said bench him for the season, nor did I say that he shouldn't play in the Youth Cup at all, but that if I was given the choice between a youth game and 20' against Bolton I'd have taken the 20 every time.

You've basically spent the last few pages of the thread saying how useless the Youth FA cup is. What I think most of us are saying is that a youth game is a better option that the vague possibility of playing 20' vs a PL side. Given our current form and the way we've struggled to break down mid to low table teams recently, having comfortably won the game 20 before time didn't seem all that likely. Look at the 1-1 vs Swansea (I think), on paper a simple-ish game where he could get a few minutes yet one he couldn't play in because we didn't half any measure of control.

 

[sunilvk7]

I think that part of the problem is the fact that they've cost a fair bit of money so people expect them to be in the first team after a season or so of settling in. What fans forget is that Piazon is not a £5-10m player, he's probably a £2m player at the momen; you're paying for the potential, not the immediate product.

It's a bit like the choice between buying a plain but solid meal or getting all the ingredients and making it yourself. The ingredients cost more and it will take much longer to make your dinner, but you can have it just like you want it and it can taste so very much better. Lots of people don't understand that and start shovelling half cooked chicken in their mouths after 30 minutes, then can't understand why it makes them sick.

(that was a terrible metaphor but you get what I'm going for)

Lol loved the metaphor. Introducing young player compared with cooking. And that was not terrible either.

 

[Subtle]

tl;dr Have you watched us this season? If so, do you really think that Piazon is going to be getting 20' on a semi regular basis, even vs the bottom clubs?

 

[Athe~]

tl;dr Have you watched us this season? If so, do you really think that Piazon is going to be getting 20' on a semi regular basis, even vs the bottom clubs?

Hardly anything to do with my point, but yeah, I've watched you, and I believe he could get minutes against the worst clubs, yeah, particularly considering AVB's subs in those games have been particularly ****.

 

[sunilvk7]

Wow, Cole has regressed so much in the last 2 seasons. He is having a poor game again.

 

[Subtle]

Lol loved the metaphor. Introducing young player compared with cooking. And that was not terrible either.

I don't know why but the whole thing reminded me of what my mum used to say: "timing is the most important thing about cooking." Now I dislike United and Lord Ferg for a number of reasons- some petty, some pretty fair- but I have an amazing amount of respect for the way he's run that club. A lot of managers will serve us flashy reductions, and delicate little cages of spun sugar, but if half your meal is burnt and the other half is cold it's still going to be ****. Your youth policy has always been a masterpiece of timing: developing players and bringing them in at just the right time. Whatever happens with United, you know that the basics are always going to be done and things aren't going to be out of time. That's what you need in a club if you want to be successful and stable in the long term: someone who knows to put the potatoes on 30 minutes before the chicken is done, not 45, so that they're not getting nice and crispy until your bird is resting.

Sadly, Roman keeps ordering takeout.

 

[GodCubed]

Well, now I'm hungry. Thanks Subtle.

 

[Subtle]

Hardly anything to do with my point, but yeah, I've watched you, and I believe he could get minutes against the worst clubs, yeah, particularly considering AVB's subs in those games have been particularly ****.

It's got everything to do with your point though, because when you look at a game you think: "is this a game, we can win comfortably?" If it is, you put a youth choice in there to play the last third, if not then you pick your best bench. Given our form, that Bolton game was not one you could look at in advance and say: "we'll win that easily" or "Piazon is good enough to make the difference if we're struggling."

 

[Subtle]

Well, now I'm hungry. Thanks Subtle.

Can you tell that I'm cooking a roast this afternoon?

 

[sunilvk7]

I don't know why but the whole thing reminded me of what my mum used to say: "timing is the most important thing about cooking." Now I dislike United and Lord Ferg for a number of reasons- some petty, some pretty fair- but I have an amazing amount of respect for the way he's run that club. A lot of managers will serve us flashy reductions, and delicate little cages of spun sugar, but if half your meal is burnt and the other half is cold it's still going to be ****. Your youth policy has always been a masterpiece of timing: developing players and bringing them in at just the right time. Whatever happens with United, you know that the basics are always going to be done and things aren't going to be out of time. That's what you need in a club if you want to be successful and stable in the long term: someone who knows to put the potatoes on 30 minutes before the chicken is done, not 45, so that they're not getting nice and crispy until your bird is resting.

Sadly, Roman keeps ordering takeout.

After reading this I can't imagine what will happen to this club when SAF finally calls it a day He has done a lot and completely changed the fortunes of this club but I doubt we will get someone like him to take over the mantle. (Someone like him means manager who handles almost everything at the club)

 

[GodCubed]

Can you tell that I'm cooking a roast this afternoon?

I have two pieces of chicken breast, some sweet and sour sauce and half a bag of rice to last me the weekend. ****. You.