The Chelsea Thread

[Athe~]

Arguing stats with GC? Do you people learn nothing here? It's like arguing Economy with Joel (he loves it) or History with ajt (he's lived it).

 

[Tyton]

Indeed they don't, but they're also a **** of a lot more reliable than one person's anecdotal evidence. They play a narrow formation high up the pitch and there's a tendency to cut inside a lot, but in Cole/Bertrand and Azpilicueta Chelsea finally have width from both full-backs.

They may have - potentialy - width from full backs, but it wont be effective until double-pivot starts to provide reliable cover and clever ball distribution, which at this point, it does not. So there we go back to their need to bring another central mid, possibly a DLP.

City have a striker who does more than sit there like a lemon and miss everything. Indeed, Aguero's clever movement, all-round player and blistering pace are very similar to what Torres used to be (albeit with a lot less aerial presence and perhaps a little more balance, acceleration and raw skill and trickery).

Aguero is sure brilliant, but he also has, by your own admission, better supply, as well as proper backup and isn't being played into exhaustion.

Chelsea are undeniably a narrow team, but not to the point where it's totally unworkable. A little patience and perhaps a little more Victor Moses would be a good remedy, but even if they DO solve that problem the main one is still that Torres is pretty much a non-entity.

If it takes some defender attention of his back as well as add some variety to the attacks , it maybe be all he needs. Although the real issue here is, people will always expect him to play like 50 million pounds, and even at his best it was too much.

 

[Tyton]

Arguing stats with GC?

Ah, but i tricked him, he provides the stats , which he propably gathers with the aid of 5000 leprechauns who sit and watch the games all day, and i provide the interpretation. This way i can bounce back every stat and hopefully by the time summer comes he'll get bored of spamming me with numbers, and i propably shouldn't reveal my strategy in public.

 

[GodCubed]

They may have - potentialy - width from full backs, but it wont be effective until double-pivot starts to provide reliable cover and clever ball distribution, which at this point, it does not. So there we go back to their need to bring another central mid, possibly a DLP.

Right, they certainly do need a deep-lying playmaker, preferably a mobile type. Doesn't change the fact that their primary problem is Torres.

Aguero is sure brilliant, but he also has, by your own admission, better supply, as well as proper backup and isn't being played into exhaustion.

Certainly. But he's not that much more brilliant that Torres couldn't play a similar role, if he was at least capable. Even before Torres was 'played into exhaustion', he was still awful, so I'm not buying that as an excuse.

If it takes some defender attention of his back as well as add some variety to the attacks , it maybe be all he needs. Although the real issue here is, people will always expect him to play like 50 million pounds, and even at his best it was too much.

Really? I think the majority of Chelsea fans would settle for him playing like he was worth a tenner and a packet of monster munch at the moment. It'd be an upgrade.

Also, I have to disagree. I think in his pomp, Torres was worth £50 million. On a long, big contract, arguably the most lethal, consistent and on-form striker in the world and just entering his prime to boot? If he was worth £50 million when he was bought by Roman, he was worth £50 million back then easily.

 

[Tyton]

Even before Torres was 'played into exhaustion', he was still awful, so I'm not buying that as an excuse.

Can't really agree with that. He had ****** start of season, had a run of decent-ish games under Rafa and now he just looks tired. If he had chance to recover, the good form may have continued. Or it could have been a fluke. Either way having time to recover is important factor.

Also, I have to disagree. I think in his pomp, Torres was worth £50 million. On a long, big contract, arguably the most lethal, consistent and on-form striker in the world and just entering his prime to boot? If he was worth £50 million when he was bought by Roman, he was worth £50 million back then easily.

He was pretty **** good back in a day, but still, 6th most expensive player in history - that's an extraordinary company. And a lot of pressure.

But hey - year earlier, maybe. But was he actually at his prime in January 2011?. His last season before the transfer wasn't exactly stellar: coming out of bad injury, played somewhat trash and got benched at WC 2010, and in PL he faded the moment Rafa was gone. To me this transfer was always a gamble by Roman, maybe with good odds, but a gamble nonetheless. And it backfired.

 

[Alcaraz]

Quite a few Luka Modric rumours flying around. Wow if he comes to Chelsea..Him and Ba could turn our season around

 

[Gump]

Right, they certainly do need a deep-lying playmaker, preferably a mobile type. Doesn't change the fact that their primary problem is Torres.

That DPL might unlock Torres once and for all.

GC, you spoke earlier of the names United, City & Chelsea have behind the striker. Yes indeed, Chelsea's names look more devastating than United's, but names aint automatically the performance. You spoke of key pass averages, Chelsea had 5.9 and United 4.9. Now tell me how many of these key passes were played to RVP & Torres? A key pass can be given to basically anyone and at Chelsea, its usually someone else than Torres who gets the ball. Now this is always debatable, is it Torres or is the others. Ive said theres fault in both as Ive seen e.g. Mata having a chance to pop Torres in through on goal with a precise pass which he can give, but it hasnt happened.

I might be wrong aswell, I dont know the statistics as well as you seem to know. 2,35 shots per game in PL is not that bad, but we can only speculate what would happen if Torres had the same average as Suarez? Or over 3 as rest of the players I brought up had.

Im still of the opinion that when Torres is in right channels, the players behind him arent able/ready/positioned to pass him and vice versa, the others are, but Torres is somewhere else. A lack of sync.

 

[GodCubed]

Can't really agree with that. He had ****** start of season, had a run of decent-ish games under Rafa and now he just looks tired. If he had chance to recover, the good form may have continued. Or it could have been a fluke. Either way having time to recover is important factor.

Good form was rather relative. Even then he was still doing silly things, not taking shots and missing some easy chances. I reckon you might be right and he does need a rest, but I don't think it is to the point where he takes a performance drop as massive as it seems.

He was pretty **** good back in a day, but still, 6th most expensive player in history - that's an extraordinary company. And a lot of pressure.

But hey - year earlier, maybe. But was he actually at his prime in January 2011?. His last season before the transfer wasn't exactly stellar: coming out of bad injury, played somewhat trash and got benched at WC 2010, and in PL he faded the moment Rafa was gone. To me this transfer was always a gamble by Roman, maybe with good odds, but a gamble nonetheless. And it backfired.

It was a little silly. Roman knows that to be able to step up to the next level you need to buy big occasionally, but this was the wrong signing at the wrong time.

Quite a few Luka Modric rumours flying around. Wow if he comes to Chelsea..Him and Ba could turn our season around

Hmm... I don't buy it. It'd leave Madrid without DLP backup to an ageing Alonso.

That DPL might unlock Torres once and for all.

Again, not buying it. People have been making excuses for Torres for ages now - Chelsea play the wrong way, Chelsea don't have a playmaker, Chelsea don't have ENOUGH playmakers, and now the playmakers are apparently the wrong sort - and either he's the most ridiculously niche player in history or he's just been average all this time.

GC, you spoke earlier of the names United, City & Chelsea have behind the striker. Yes indeed, Chelsea's names look more devastating than United's, but names aint automatically the performance. You spoke of key pass averages, Chelsea had 5.9 and United 4.9. Now tell me how many of these key passes were played to RVP & Torres? A key pass can be given to basically anyone and at Chelsea, its usually someone else than Torres who gets the ball. Now this is always debatable, is it Torres or is the others. Ive said theres fault in both as Ive seen e.g. Mata having a chance to pop Torres in through on goal with a precise pass which he can give, but it hasnt happened.

Wait one sec. So we've established Chelsea have a superior supply line to, say, United. So why doesn't Torres end up bagging himself goals with such world-class playmakers behind him? Surely they can find him just about anywhere?

Purely put, because either Torres doesn't ******* move, or because the team doesn't trust him because he doesn't do anything. The first is entirely Torres' fault, the second is mostly his fault. Either way, the main way to remedy this problem is to just put in another striker. Perhaps when the band of three behind him are used to looking to release the striker with a quick ball behind the defence he can come back into the team and do well. Until then?...

I might be wrong aswell, I dont know the statistics as well as you seem to know. 2,35 shots per game in PL is not that bad, but we can only speculate what would happen if Torres had the same average as Suarez? Or over 3 as rest of the players I brought up had.

It's not great from the main striker of a big team who are looking to dominate opponents. He's got fewer than Mata, for example, and that's in the same team. Suarez is well known for spraying the goal with shots, but compare Torres to the likes of Defoe (4.1), Benteke (3.1), Chelsea's own Demba Ba (4.5), Michu (3.1). If we restrict it to the top five, Torres is lower than the likes of Van Persie (3.5), Rooney (3.7), Fellaini (3.3), Mirallas (3.1), Defoe, Bale (4.1) and Aguero and Tevez (both 3.2).

So yeah, he might do better if he had the same average as Suarez, but he's not taking the shots.

Im still of the opinion that when Torres is in right channels, the players behind him arent able/ready/positioned to pass him and vice versa, the others are, but Torres is somewhere else. A lack of sync.

Funny. The rest of the team look perfectly in sync. Chelsea's attacking is based around neat triangles and swift counters, relying on the players' anticipation and decision-making. So why not Torres?

What excuse for him next? His hair got in his eyes? His mother accidentally shrunk his favourite blanket?

 

[Tezzz]

Sorry to drag this up again but going back to the Lampard penalty vs Southampton and the slating he got on here i thought i'd clear it up. After an interview with CTV Lampard was asked whether Ba had a chance of taking it and scoring his hat-trick and Lampard thought his first went down as an own goal. Ba was also asked about it and he said there was no way he would take it away from him. Case closed.

"I thought his first one was an oggy so I decided to still be selfish anyway"

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Tezzz]

Going back to the Torres thing. There was also an incident against Everton were Oscar could've clearly put him through but eventually decided to go down the left with another chelsea player.

People moan about him not getting his confidence up but it is no ****** wonder! Can you imagine playing for a sunday league team were no one puts you through on goal when its the most blatantly available option?

 

[GodCubed]

Going back to the Torres thing. There was also an incident against Everton were Oscar could've clearly put him through but eventually decided to go down the left with another chelsea player.

People moan about him not getting his confidence up but it is no ****** wonder! Can you imagine playing for a sunday league team were no one puts you through on goal when its the most blatantly available option?

If I'd spent the past year and a half doing **** all and muffing the chances that came my way, I'd hardly expect them to have the same faith in me as they would in a striker who knows what he's doing.

 

[JPRLittle]

Going back to the Torres thing. There was also an incident against Everton were Oscar could've clearly put him through but eventually decided to go down the left with another chelsea player.

People moan about him not getting his confidence up but it is no ****** wonder! Can you imagine playing for a sunday league team were no one puts you through on goal when its the most blatantly available option?

In that very same game Oscar put Torres through on goal to finish off the game,but he was too slow to get the shot off and Distin managed to get the tackle in.

 

[Gump]

Alrite lets see GC.

You may not buy that DPL would unlock Torres, maybe not, but it will anyway overally put things in better order when Chelsea build-up attacks. They wouldnt rely so much on Mata if they buy a good, pure passer e.g. Carrick, who can pass anywhere to the pitch and builds them up from deep.

And now there you said it.

So why doesn't Torres end up bagging himself goals with such world-class playmakers behind him? Surely they can find him just about anywhere?

I said previously that they CAN, but its about WILL they do it. So far Mata, Hazard & Oscar tend most of the time to just opt for the safer option instead of looking for a more RISKY pass to Torres. But you said something again.

or because the team doesn't trust him because he doesn't do anything.

This might be it aswell. Tezz also said about Oscar, thats about the playmakers selecting the more safer option. Then when Torres moves around and finds space, ball aint getting there. I mean just imagine it. Be the striker and then you do hard work by running around, finding space for yourself but at the end of the day the pass doesnt arrive when you want it. Frustrating isnt it? Then he jsut becomes lazy cos he knows that if I do move there, I wont get the ball anyway. Then he gets the blame for not moving, cos I say he does move, doesnt matter whether in bad or good, but still moves.

And as you said in that what I quoted, they SHOULD BE ABLE to find him, no matter where he stands/runs. So a solution to all this, put the ball there, chip it in, cross, low pass, anything. Then if they just keep putting the passes more often to him, then we can see how **** Torres actually is.

And you said it there, its still not enough shots for him. But you also say that he aint taking the shots. This is cos he aint getting the ball in the proper areas where he could have good shot, no point in blasting ball from **** positions.

And regarding the sync, yes it is funny but face it, its the truth. The triangles you spoke about mostly create chances for one of the guys involved in the triangle if you have noticed, cos Torres has been told to stay up and stay in the channels and usually he sits in the Cb - fb channel, waiting for a possible pass to him. But the triangle groups neat, short passing most of the time result in one of them getting at the end of the moves, especially Mata has been getting them. Theres nothing wrong in the triangles, but the triangles should be built so that one of the fellas participating in it gets into the space the triangles create between opposition midfield & defensive units and then put the crucial key pass to Torres or to someone else, but mostly Torres cos he sits in there somewhere.

I

 

[ajt09]

Personally, I think Torres is frail mentally and is now broken as shown by how he's become a shadow of how great a player he was for Liverpool. I think once his confidence went on the pitch, and all the abuse came full force it pretty much destroyed his head, and is now fully visible on the pitch. Then once the press lays into you, and you don't have the mental capacity to deal with it can destroy you literally. I may be wrong-just an opinion. He obviously needs to leave and just wipe the slate clean. Once you fail at a club, and you become a fixation for the press-even when the club wins-it's obvious what needs doing.

But to be honest some of the abuse and name calling he's getting on various forums is just absolutely disgusting and way OTT. I won't even repeat what's been said as I won't give some of those mentally challenged people the satisfaction of having it repeated-but it's ridiculous it really is. I've never seen such a fanbase so divided over one player. Even on some Ba threads his name has cropped up and been the subject of vile abuse. Call me silly but when a new player has a blinder of a game, surely the logical thing to do would be to discuss how great an impact a new player has on your club, rather than bring up the same old arguments but on a much more bilious scale?

 

[Alcaraz]

Finally found this...

Roughly similar situations where Chelsea are attacking. Same playmaker has the ball. Only difference is the striker. One being Torres and the other being Demb Ba.

Please see the difference in their movement or lack thereof for yourself...

Fernando Torres

Demb Ba

 

[GodCubed]

Alrite lets see GC.

You may not buy that DPL would unlock Torres, maybe not, but it will anyway overally put things in better order when Chelsea build-up attacks. They wouldnt rely so much on Mata if they buy a good, pure passer e.g. Carrick, who can pass anywhere to the pitch and builds them up from deep.

Which is why I said they need one.

This might be it aswell. Tezz also said about Oscar, thats about the playmakers selecting the more safer option. Then when Torres moves around and finds space, ball aint getting there. I mean just imagine it. Be the striker and then you do hard work by running around, finding space for yourself but at the end of the day the pass doesnt arrive when you want it. Frustrating isnt it? Then he jsut becomes lazy cos he knows that if I do move there, I wont get the ball anyway. Then he gets the blame for not moving, cos I say he does move, doesnt matter whether in bad or good, but still moves.

And as you said in that what I quoted, they SHOULD BE ABLE to find him, no matter where he stands/runs. So a solution to all this, put the ball there, chip it in, cross, low pass, anything. Then if they just keep putting the passes more often to him, then we can see how **** Torres actually is.

And you said it there, its still not enough shots for him. But you also say that he aint taking the shots. This is cos he aint getting the ball in the proper areas where he could have good shot, no point in blasting ball from **** positions.

And regarding the sync, yes it is funny but face it, its the truth. The triangles you spoke about mostly create chances for one of the guys involved in the triangle if you have noticed, cos Torres has been told to stay up and stay in the channels and usually he sits in the Cb - fb channel, waiting for a possible pass to him. But the triangle groups neat, short passing most of the time result in one of them getting at the end of the moves, especially Mata has been getting them. Theres nothing wrong in the triangles, but the triangles should be built so that one of the fellas participating in it gets into the space the triangles create between opposition midfield & defensive units and then put the crucial key pass to Torres or to someone else, but mostly Torres cos he sits in there somewhere.

All of this ignores the obvious. Chelsea have PASSED this stage. This stage was long ago, at the beginning of last year. The likes of Mata were trying to release Torres, and he either wasn't making the runs, or was making the runs and then ******* the entire move up. We're ALREADY "seen how **** Torres actually is"; we've been seeing it for over a year now.

 

[Nick Chelsea]

It's not only that, when the ball gets to him he misses the biggest sitters ever. Corinthians, QPR are the latest that come to mind.

 

[Gump]

Which is why I said they need one.



All of this ignores the obvious. Chelsea have PASSED this stage. This stage was long ago, at the beginning of last year. The likes of Mata were trying to release Torres, and he either wasn't making the runs, or was making the runs and then ******* the entire move up.

To the last one, or he didnt get the ball and then relocated himself. And well if they have passed it, then its not working, tho this is just my opinion.

That link you brought up Alcaraz regarding Torres, well Torres reaction in the first set of photos tells us the answer. He was waiting for Hazard to make the pass so that he can run into it. If he had run first, it might have been offside. Here Hazard should have played the pass and Im certain he would have ran for it, got it and scored. But Hazard never made it and therefore he was like wtf.

2nd set of photos is also clear, thats what Ba did when he scored his 2nd. He thought Bertrand would pass and he would do same tap-in as Ba did against Southampton.

Summary of the situation in photos: Lack of sync.

EDIT: and to Nick, yes I saw the Corinthians game and yes, that was a great miss, but it wont help if everyone starts throwing stones at him for it. He probably knows it himself that he missed and badly, but these do happen in football, its not like the first time a player misses awesome chance and now youre going to say Torres has had many of those kind of chances. Yes, he has made mistakes in front of goal, no doubt about that one.

 

[Mike.]

Its largely moot now. The players themselves have finally lost faith in Torres. It doesnt matter how or why or whatever, its basically now a breakdown of a side in terms of understanding. So that needs to be rectified. Start Demba Ba

 

[epic terrorist]

right Im having my two pennies on the torres debate!!!!

I'm not having he doesn't get th chances, He blatantly does how many sitters has he missed not only this season but last? United game missed pratically an open goal anyone remember that?

There are two problems with torres that I can see right his first is pace, he has lost a few yards he is not blistering onto balls like he used to, someone mentioned the everton game were he was to slow to get onto a ball. its plain to see that has gone and I'm sorry but in his liverpool days that was his biggest most potent attribute not that he was just fast but how explosively fast he was if we are talking in fm terms his acceleration was surely a 20 remember when he just use to pratically run through dfenders for fun. But I'm afraid this is gone it is no longer there I don't know if its injuries or hedoesn't fullyfeel comfortable with his legs to let them go IDK.

Secondly his confidence everyone bemoaning his lack of movement but I pesonally think he doen't want the ball he is that scared of missing now i just thimk his confidence is shot and iactually think it is too far goe think he should just move back to athletico and be happy again.

So you mix these two with the fact teams have worked out how to play torres you can just sit deep because the explosiveness of the pace isn't there I think its going to carry on like this till something give and chelsea can buy all the DLP appoint new managers d what they like. I personnally don't think he will ever be the same player again which is a shame