The Downfall of English Football

[Mike.]

the idea about foreigners is a very simplistic one, what about the 70's and 80s? werent winning then with a lot less foreign players in the league. People use that as an easy excuse not to talk about the deep rooted issues in the way we teach the game at a young age. The NT problems were nothing to with lack of talent and everything to with lack of team and tactical coherency.

But this isnt do to with the topic of transfers

---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------

It does have to with it, It shows that team's are signing the best player's instead of trying to produce their own player's.This thread isn't about transfer's they were an example. The point is too show how your league will start going downhill.

Club's start having to pay off debt ---> Player's need to leave ---> No money made from sales as it goes to the bank --->bringing up youngster's for constant first team action who were lucky previously to make the bench---> League becomes poorer quality as a result--->Less people investing ridiculous money--->Less player's want to join.

However if young player's are given some games they become more experience more English player's better the league becomes

but your opening argument was flawed. 5 big transfers do not reflect the entire league. you didnt examine the fact that for example liverpools transfer for carroll was paid for out of the money for torres, they are in fact only 7.5 million down

---------- Post added at 05:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 AM ----------

It does have to with it, It shows that team's are signing the best player's instead of trying to produce their own player's.This thread isn't about transfer's they were an example. The point is too show how your league will start going downhill.

Club's start having to pay off debt ---> Player's need to leave ---> No money made from sales as it goes to the bank --->bringing up youngster's for constant first team action who were lucky previously to make the bench---> League becomes poorer quality as a result--->Less people investing ridiculous money--->Less player's want to join.

However if young player's are given some games they become more experience more English player's better the league becomes

you have a made a lot of assumptions and generalisations in your chain of events without backing any of it up

 

[curtis290]

the idea about foreigners is a very simplistic one, what about the 70's and 80s? werent winning then with a lot less foreign players in the league. People use that as an easy excuse not to talk about the deep rooted issues in the way we teach the game at a young age. The NT problems were nothing to with lack of talent and everything to with lack of team and tactical coherency.

But this isnt do to with the topic of transfers

---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------


but your opening argument was flawed. 5 big transfers do not reflect the entire league. you didnt examine the fact that for example liverpools transfer for carroll was paid for out of the money for torres, they are in fact only 7.5 million down

I think it does have to do with transfers, more money being thrown around in the league means teams will have much less patience with young players. Teams like Man City are just going to buy the best players available, usually foreigners, rather than develop English talent. True, they did invest in their youth system, but are they working in young English players into their line-up? ManU seems to be the only big team that's doing this.

As for the English NT, I think there is a lack of quality, this team isn't half as good as the previous English teams in terms of talent (Beckham, Scholes, Owen, etc.). There's hardly any English players at the top clubs, and I think at the moment there are many more talented Spanish and German players than English ones. I think a lot of this has to do with how much money there is in the Prem...it makes sense to just buy players instead of developing local ones.

And if the problems with the English NT were lack of tactical coherency/team unity, why weren't they successful under previous coaches?

 

[Souty]

Yes but are you really trying to tell me that Andy Carroll is more expensive than David Villa?

Also look at what I said in my previous post, a lot of clubs are in debt's to the bank's and the ones that aren't owe money back to the chairman Chelsea for example now they are going to have to pay him around £200million pound's and he want's the money now for a club that has no money (Remember he gives them money) where are they going to get it?

They can either take a loan from the Bank but that would leave them in serious debt.
or
Sell off some player's that would mean getting rid off about 5 or 6 First team player's

To repay him, now they need to replace those position's but have no money?
Most likely turn to youth.

But writing this I have remembered that most of your young player's are foreign too.

 

[Mike.]

I think it does have to do with transfers, more money being thrown around in the league means teams will have much less patience with young players. Teams like Man City are just going to buy the best players available, usually foreigners, rather than develop English talent. True, they did invest in their youth system, but are they working in young English players into their line-up? ManU seems to be the only big team that's doing this.

As for the English NT, I think there is a lack of quality, this team isn't half as good as the previous English teams in terms of talent (Beckham, Scholes, Owen, etc.). There's hardly any English players at the top clubs, and I think at the moment there are many more talented Spanish and German players than English ones. I think a lot of this has to do with how much money there is in the Prem...it makes sense to just buy players instead of developing local ones.

And if the problems with the English NT were lack of tactical coherency/team unity, why weren't they successful under previous coaches?

No it really doesnt. i respect your views, but the way you talk about the english suggests you dont reall know the major issues facing the game. Transfers will not be the death of english football, i wish it was that simple. The problems run deep and stem back 20+ years

you say it isnt half as good then you mention three players. the side has the individual quality (hart, terry, ferdinand, cole, rooney, gerrard, lampard, etc you forget that most of these players played alongside those you mention for the last 6-10 years)

im talking about the current side

before that we managed 3 quarter finals in a row. go back and take a look at englands record since the 1966 world cup, dont listen to the media and realise we are by and large a 1/4 side, and always have been

---------- Post added at 05:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

Yes but are you really trying to tell me that Andy Carroll is more expensive than David Villa?

Also look at what I said in my previous post, a lot of clubs are in debt's to the bank's and the ones that aren't owe money back to the chairman Chelsea for example now they are going to have to pay him around £200million pound's and he want's the money now for a club that has no money (Remember he gives them money) where are they going to get it?

They can either take a loan from the Bank but that would leave them in serious debt.
or
Sell off some player's that would mean getting rid off about 5 or 6 First team player's

To repay him, now they need to replace those position's but have no money?
Most likely turn to youth.

But writing this I have remembered that most of your young player's are foreign too.

sorry but all that is generalisation and assumption and ifs/buts

Im not trying to tell you anything about carroll, im telling you that liverpool did not put themselves in any financial danger over the deals. period

 

[Souty]

Yes If/buts which has being going on for a long time we (Rangers) done it and look at us now

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 AM ----------

also Liverpool may of had the money to spend but it was a stupid amount to pay.

Whereas instead they could have signed 2 or 3 player's

 

[Mike.]

Yes If/buts which has being going on for a long time we (Rangers) done it and look at us now

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 AM ----------

also Liverpool may of had the money to spend but it was a stupid amount to pay.

Whereas instead they could have signed 2 or 3 player's

who liverpool could/should have signed is subjective and also in fairness irrelevant. they can sign who ever they want. the issue is that at no point have they endangered themselves financially, which is what you were alluding to in your opening post

 

[GodCubed]

I think it does have to do with transfers, more money being thrown around in the league means teams will have much less patience with young players. Teams like Man City are just going to buy the best players available, usually foreigners, rather than develop English talent. True, they did invest in their youth system, but are they working in young English players into their line-up? ManU seems to be the only big team that's doing this.

Oh what rubbish. Aston Villa, for one, are working youth into their team. Tottenham Hotspur have been handing out chances to the likes of Danny Rose. Newcastle have been bringing through people like Nile Ranger. Sunderland with Henderson, Everton with Rodwell, Arsenal with Wilshere, Liverpool with Kelly, West Ham with Sears. More or less every club is bringing through at least one English youngster of promise into their first team, and some clubs many more. Top clubs, as you mentioned, are also doing it: Chelsea with McEachran, United with the likes of Smalling, Evans, Welbeck and Cleverly, Arsenal with Aneke, Wilshere, Gibbs and Cruise, City with Johnson, Richards and Nimely, Tottenham with Rose, Caulkin and so on.

As for the English NT, I think there is a lack of quality, this team isn't half as good as the previous English teams in terms of talent (Beckham, Scholes, Owen, etc.). There's hardly any English players at the top clubs, and I think at the moment there are many more talented Spanish and German players than English ones. I think a lot of this has to do with how much money there is in the Prem...it makes sense to just buy players instead of developing local ones.

And what did this garlanded golden generation produce? Nothing. A couple of world cup quarters, some extremely bad penalties and a feeling of general disappointment.

As I said, there are many English players at the top clubs. Also, it doesn't make sense to buy players instead of developing them, if you have the choice: developing them is very, very cheap, whereas buying is expensive.

And if the problems with the English NT were lack of tactical coherency/team unity, why weren't they successful under previous coaches?

Because all previous coaches haven't got them working well either. We haven't had a truly world class coach in ages. Capello is the only one with any kind of great CV, but he's good and properly cocked it up.

 

[winfield]

Obviously a young player isn't going to get a game ahead of your new 15million central midfielder from Spain. The problem is young player's don't get a lot of first team action until their in their twenty's and by then their not good enough and drop to the championship.

Where has this gotten the SPL? Or your national team? Absolutely nowhere. Are you telling me the following youngsters haven't played

Aaron Ramsey (ok he's welsh and recovering from a long term injury)
Theo Walcott
Jack Wilshire
Danny Welbeck
Phil Jones(who is now out for the season)
Jack Rodwell
Andy Carroll
Jordan Henderson
Fabrice Muamba
Micah Richards


That's just off the top off my head without really thinking too hard. And mainly limited to 1st team regulars. If you're good enough you play. Throwing vastly unprepared and kids in the premiership is worse than getting no playing time. It just erodes confidence, and puts them in a position to fail rather than succeed.

One thing I have noticed in Scotland team's are playing a lot more younger player's -we played a 18/19 midfielder year old against Man U at home in the CL. Another 18/19 year old defender against Bursaspor in the CL. And I'm sure another young midfielder we play will feature in the EL - These players are given the chance to prove their worth in first team games. This rarely happen's In England

Oh wow ONE WHOLE GAME? That must be a wealth of experience. If that's you criteria (less than 5 games) then I could triple or quadruple that list above very easily.

Doesn't it bother you though that there are so many foreigners in the league? You don't want to see your countrymen play? After all, it is the English Premier League. Only a few years ago it was mostly Englishmen. If you want to watch foreigners play turn on Serie A, La Liga, the Bundesliga, etc. I'm not English but it would **** me off if there were that many foreigners in my league.

Tell me what major league doesn't have a lot of foreigners? Russia-no, Germany-no, France-no, Italy-no, Spain-no, Eredivisie-no, Belgium-no, Portugal-no, Greece-no, Turkey-LOL no. Maybe the Swedish or Norwegian leagues. As I've said previously there's only one team in the one of the major leagues of European top flight football that has 0 foreigners - Bilbao. I'm also extrmely surpised that an Arsenal admirer would be complaining about foreigners.

 

[GodCubed]

Yes but are you really trying to tell me that Andy Carroll is more expensive than David Villa?

Well yeah. Because he was. oO)

Also look at what I said in my previous post, a lot of clubs are in debt's to the bank's and the ones that aren't owe money back to the chairman Chelsea for example now they are going to have to pay him around £200million pound's and he want's the money now for a club that has no money (Remember he gives them money) where are they going to get it?

Eh? Abramovic paid off all of their debts, Chelsea are now debt free. He did that himself. They're not in debt to him in any way.

One thing I have noticed in Scotland team's are playing a lot more younger player's -we played a 18/19 midfielder year old against Man U at home in the CL. Another 18/19 year old defender against Bursaspor in the CL. And I'm sure another young midfielder we play will feature in the EL - These players are given the chance to prove their worth in first team games. This rarely happen's In England

In addition to winfield's excellent post above, I can say that in that exact same fixture, Manchester United also played a 18/19 year old defender, and again in both fixtures against Bursaspor. I honestly don't even know what point you're making here - are you trying to say English clubs don't give young players chances? Because if so you're utterly wrong - but even if I did I suspect you'd still be wrong.