The Fifth Best League in the World?
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fuelledbypassion
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It all comes down to what you consider 'best' to mean.
The way one could interperet this could be:
1. which has the best individual stars
2. which plays the most attractive football
3. which has the largest pool of teams that can realistically compete for the title
4. which has had most success (eg in continental football such as Champions League)
5. which has the most of the above
The way one could interperet this could be:
1. which has the best individual stars
2. which plays the most attractive football
3. which has the largest pool of teams that can realistically compete for the title
4. which has had most success (eg in continental football such as Champions League)
5. which has the most of the above
First, I am not saying nor trying to prove you or anybody else that they are wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as I am to mine. However I must admit, it does somehow annoy me that most put the French, Dutch or Portuguese league in front of the Brazilian or Argentine one. That is bordering on ridiculous.
Second, the wikipedia link, goes from the IFFHS, which basically creates many rankings and statistics which are used as sources by lots of people, including the media worldwide.
If I have to rank competiteveness between Italy and Brazil, Brazil wins big time. There at least 10 Big Names in Brazilian League, that have won Libertadores and other continental titles and are considered title challengers every year. I am not counting the State championships. Everyone know, that at the start of the season, there 4 or 5 challengers in Italy. Whereas in Brazil there are many more. There is another issue, dont forget that a lot of players from South America, specially BRA, ARG, enrich the leagues in Europe greatly.
Agree, there are many factors which come into account. The point is, which one is more important, in order to differentiate two leagues that are quite similar.
If I go by 1) La Liga, 2) Probably EPL, La Liga very close behind 3) Brazil, Argentina and from Europe, hard to say, Bundesliga maybe? The French are also very inconsistent 4) EPL, La Liga , Serie A and obviously ARG, BRA ( They rule in continental competition)
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For the quality of the best teams, Ligue 1... Though I'd choose the Eredivisie in almost every other respect.
Brazil and Argentina would be poor choices. Sure, they're competitive, but that's because no team can maintain stability. As 'feeder' leagues for Europe, any players that show true quality are shipped out, leaving teams mere shells comprised of more up-and-comers, average squad members and players in the twilight of their career. I'd rank the English Championship (the best second tier league in the world) above 'em both.
Brazil and Argentina would be poor choices. Sure, they're competitive, but that's because no team can maintain stability. As 'feeder' leagues for Europe, any players that show true quality are shipped out, leaving teams mere shells comprised of more up-and-comers, average squad members and players in the twilight of their career. I'd rank the English Championship (the best second tier league in the world) above 'em both.
Championship above Brasileirao? You gotta be joking. Worse players, worse teams. Have you actually watched more than 2 games from there recently? Dont think so. True, they are feeder leagues for Europe, but still, lot of talent there, some discovered, some not. They discover "Robinho", WOW, everybody claps their hands as they have found the next Pele. Sold to Europe, next season, Nilmar, then, Neymar, then Paulo Henrique, then etc, then etc. They sell potential "stars" every season. So what? Every year there is a new name coming up, that means only, that there is still a lot more, which somehow shows you the quality of their players.
On topic now, has everyone considered measuring the level of the league depending on the winners of individual awards, like Balon d´or, FIFA Golden Boot, etc? I mean, considering the club he plays for at the time of the award. Would that be fair?
English Championship above Brazil and Argentina?????You haven't got a clue about football my friend. What a joker!!!
But each year they sell these stars, and it deflates the overall quality of the league.
In my opinion
1. English Premier League
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Bundesliga
5. Ligue 1 - Very competitive, with each team having some great players
6. Russian Premier League - 6 main teams, with any of them capable of winning each season (Zenit, CKSA, Spartak, Dynamo, Lokomotiv)
7. nPower Championship - Results are inpredictable, and very exciting football.
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Bundesliga
5. Ligue 1 - Very competitive, with each team having some great players
6. Russian Premier League - 6 main teams, with any of them capable of winning each season (Zenit, CKSA, Spartak, Dynamo, Lokomotiv)
7. nPower Championship - Results are inpredictable, and very exciting football.
Hihi, Feyenoord one of the best clubs. Don't know if you've checked the news these couple past years, but they're **** these days. However, look at FC Utrecht, Roda JC and Vitesse these next few years. They're going to explode!
As for the best players in the Eredivisie: Suarez, Stekelenburg, El Hamdaoui, Sergio Romero, Afellay, van Wolfswinkel, Dzudzsak, Marcus Berg, Ola Toivonen, Jeremain Lens, Andre Ooijer, vd Wiel, Vertonghen, Eriksen, de Zeeuw, Brama, Theo Janssen, Luuk de Jong, Ruiz.
To name a few.
I do watch both Brazilian and Argentinian matches whenever I get the opportunity, so how often do you get to view the Championship?
You say potential stars appear with regularity, well they don't. Hence a club doing particularly well one season, shedding a couple of players and falling to the bottom of the table. I've watched teams who won the Copa Libertadores one year become shells of their former selves the next. It might be okay if it was only the odd player, but managers are headhunted almost as much, something a lot less frequent in the Championship. But the main crux of the argument is competitiveness and quality of football, and in both the Championship is superior. Sure for the archetypal south American 'skill', individuals (and often entire teams) in Brazil and Argentina are of course a better representation of that side of the game. Football comprises a lot more than that. Your point 'worse players, worse teams' should be 'more effective players, betters teams', as son, it'd be the truth.
Take a look at Tim Vickery's blog if you want to see someone truly lament the state of Brazilian and Argentinian football. The man loves it, but is under no illusions.
Add more exclamation points and question marks to your post next time, to really get your point across. What are you, the friggin' Riddler?Zagallo said:
Not really, as I said, there are many other stars there. Some not discovered yet. Plus, there is another fact. Brazil just like Argentina, export lots of players every year to Europe and other leagues around world. Most of them will remain as "wannabe" stars, and soon return to their home country or lower profile leagues. Its the same story every year, year after year.... Specially now, since Eastern European clubs have the cash to buy low profile players from those countries. ****, even Mexico buys them in a lot.
And then you have players like Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Robinho, Adriano, that returned to play there, even though the last two returned to Europe. In season 11/12, there will be more, and Europe will buy like the always have.
You cant compare the quality nor the history of a Santos, Sao Paulo, River Plate, Boca Juniors with the likes of Middlesbrough, Ipswich, or other championship teams. There shouldnt even be a debate there. Did you know that Boca Juniors (together with ACMilan) holds the record for international titles at club levels (19)? Or Independiente who has 7 Libertadores Cup?
And at the Clubs World Championship the titles are quite even between South America and Europe, so that means that the quality of the teams are quite similar. I still remember when Velez Sarsfield played AC Milan for the title. Before that most people didnt even know where Velez was from, still, they beat the Italian club.
---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------
Actually I managed to watch a game per weekend, and I agree its a very exciting league, quite unpredictable, but not that much either compared to other leagues. Again, its my opinion and you have yours. Still, the quality of the squads is not even near the top divisions. Com´on, do you really believe, that a Championship team could beat Santos, Cruzeiro, Estudiantes, in a two leg playoff game? In football anything can happen, but 9 out 10 games a championship team would probably loose. I am one of those, who actually lived in Brazil for many years, and I have seen games at Pacaembu and Morumbi stadium. What I am saying is that I have been watching their games for a long long time... I have seen yesterdays Fluminense win (odd hours, I know, but fun to watch)
On the other hand, its true, that a winning side, gets their best players sold to Europe. So what? Next year there is another team with big stars. South American teams have been like that for what, 20 years? Since the Bosman ruling, I believe... Where many south americans held dual nationality which propelled a massive emigration to Europe. Example, Catania, 8 players from Argentina with Italian ascendancy, plus some guys from Uruguay, etc... Hey, there is even Amorrebieta from Bilbao, who was born in Venezueala to Basque parents...(that was quite odd I must say). Anyway he rejected a call from the Venezuelan squad, expecting to being called up for Spain. I hope he wont regret his decision.
Anyway, keep the debate on, I love it. Good arguments there. It appears that at least we all agree that EPL and La Liga are in the Top 3.
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I meant that Feyenoord have been one of only 5 teams to win the Eredivisie, and they used to be one of the best clubs. And yes I have checked the news these past couple of years now you mention it.
Yes you've named some good players. But I can do the same for Ligue 1. Gourcuff, Briand, Lloris, Hoarau, Gignac, Toulalan, Kallstrom, Bastos, Lopez, Heinze, Gonzalez, Diarra and that's only off the top of my head now, as I'm not trawling through entire squads. It comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day, but I can't really understand why people claim that the Dutch league is better than the French Ligue 1. I recognise the coefficients aren't foolproof but they're the best stats we have to go on, and they rank Ligue 1 far higher than the Eredivisie, which was around 8th or 9th. They show that Ligue 1 teams have consistently outperformed their Dutch counterparts in European competition, so surely that is an indicator that the quality of sides is superior in France?
Out of interest, I've pasted the league tables together to allow a bit of friendly comparison. Who do people think would win each game?
Stade Rennais FC - PSV Eindhoven
Olympique de Marseille - Twente Enschede
AS Saint-Etienne - Ajax
Stade Brestois 29 - Roda JC
Toulouse FC - Groningen
Montpellier Hérault SC - Utrecht
Paris Saint-Germain - AZ Alkmaar
LOSC Lille Métropole - ADO Den Haag
Girondins de Bordeaux - NEC Nijmegen
SM Caen - Heerenveen
FC Sochaux Montbéliard - NAC Breda
Valenciennes FC - De Graafschap
OGC Nice - Heracles Almelo
Olympique Lyonnais - Excelsior
AJ Auxerre - Feyenoord
FC Lorient - Vitesse Arnhem
AS Nancy Lorraine - VVV-Venlo
AS Monaco FC - Willem II
PS. This is not used to either prove or disprove my opinion, it's just to see what people think.
Few of them are guesses as I don't know alot about teams like Lorient, Sochaux Montbeliard etc.
European teams hardly put effort into those competitions, coming as they do in the middle of the season.
That's a poor way to think of things. The Premier League is superior to to the French league, but I wouldn't fancy Blackpool's chances against Lyon.
When comparing leagues you have to compare all the teams within. Just take the Championship, teams like Bristol City and Middlesbrough are struggling at the bottom with strong squads. Compare such a team with one languishing in Brasileiro Série A such as Goias. That team ecapsulates everything I've been saying. Loanees, average journeymen, players in the twilight of their career and a couple of bright lights - such as Rafael Toloi, who isn't going to be there for much longer. If we're talking hypothetical friendlies, I wouldn't fancy their chances agaisnt the organised, well drilled teams of the Championship.
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Woah there, I didn't say anything about what league is better, so there's no reason to attack me on my post.
Looking at the tie off between the french and dutch teams, I haven't a clue which one should be better. Especially the lower ranked clubs. It'd be interesting to see OM vs FC Twente.
And yes, it's true that the french clubs are richer on average, and yes it's true their players earn more money. But France is a lot bigger country and has a lot more inhabitants too. For example, Willem II is going bust because they are 300k in debt. Whereas Liverpool is (was) 300M or so in debt and still were keeping their heads above water (barely).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_2/table/default.stm
seriously though i think its got to be french league
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_2/table/default.stm
seriously though i think its got to be french league
I have posted the league table for the Brasileirao, its quite closer than yours, and in already 31 games into the championship.
It does seem sometimes that the European teams dont give that much importance to that competition, however they do field a full strength squad. And if you compare only by the names of the players, one could quickly think that the European teams are much better. Having said this, it is clear that they underestimate the South American teams greatly.
As for the Championship teams, I can see you hold to your opinion and I to mine. It will be impossible to settle this, unless there is a mix league between those two, and that is pure fantasy. You could simulate such in FM, but still, its only a dream. And you name Goias, com´on, why dont you name, Corinthians, Flamengo, Fluminense, Sao Paulo, Palmeiras, Santos, Botafogo, Vasco da Gama, Cruzeiro, Atletico MG just to name a few. You get a lousy Goias maybe performing poorly in the league but still reaching QF or SF of the Libertadores /Sudamericana. South American teams are also highly organized, and probably are better in technical skills. If you have to look for the top players in flair, dribbling and creativity you know where to find them.
I must say its admiring the way you defend the Championship level towards the South American leagues. Its like saying that Eurocup is more difficult than the Copa America. Or that Qualifying for the WC is more difficult for European teams than for South American teams. I guess we will all have to wait until 2014, when it will be hosted in SA soil for the first time in 36 years.