The Liverpool Thread

[Scouseinthehouse]

LOL Mersk. Brilliant.

So you're Norwegen huh? Wondered where about's you were from. I have quite a few good friends among your fellow Country men and woman. All through our mutual passion and them coming over the games. Got to love that commitment to come as regularly as they do through the year. (There were 9 of them over for Carlisle last week. All the way from Norway for a third round league cup game against a 4th tier side. Awesome support.). Some that have even moved to Liverpool. Three of my favourite Norwegians are high up in the Oslo Police force (one was sat across the table not too long back interrogating the shitbag who massacred all the kids on the Island but that's another story); and down to England being so much cheaper they literally come over for 3 or 4 days at a time and get absolutely waisted the whole trip. It's like a cheap release for them from the stresses of the job with the bonus of LFC thrown in.

Funny listening to them speak with a slight Scouse twang. But not as funny as some of the Belgiums who, by virtue of having their first proper exposure to English coming over following L'pool, speak better Scouse than me!

The Worldwide friendships you develop through football over the years never ceases to amaze me. For example, there's two Greeks that will be at the game tomorrow. Never been outside Greece in their lives. But they came over for the Arsenal game yesterday and are taking in a game at Anfield tomorrow. All through keeping in touch with one of the lads after we went down to Piraes the morning of the 2007 Champions League final and had a ceremony at Olympiacos' ground to remember their Gate7 tragedy along with our own. They laid on food and ouzo and we had a great few hours. From that shared gesture born out of tragedy comes one of the friendships sorting them tickets out for a game Olympiacos aren't playing in 8 years later.

This sport rocks at times!

 

[mersk]

Haha, he's the Norwegian Ian Holloway!

The media loves him almost as much as the fans. The guy put Norwegian football on the map, with some incredible runs in the Champions League, participating in the group play 8 seasons in a row from the mid-90s, all while being true to his philosophy of attacking football.

Some of the impressive results in the CL:
Beating Blackburn 2-1 in 95/96
Beating AC Milan 2-1 (on San Siro) in 96/97 (They reached the quarter final that year, losing out to Juventus after a 1-1 draw at home and a 0-2 loss in Torino)
Beating Olympiakos 5-1, Porto 2-0 and Real Madrid 2-0 in 97/98

When asked to summarize his career, he said "I've meant a little to Rosenborg, but Rosenborg has meant a lot to me."

 

[ICYUNVME]

Would it surprise you? The fella's a fool to himself. EVERYTHING on the league. What good anyone thinks another disastrous Europa campaign will do for him/ us if/ when we return the Chanpions League is anyone's guess?

But when sadly the club (disgracefully) aren't arsed about the Europa he gets away with it.

Not sure about the issue with this team. Big match on Sunday and even then we're playing a lot players who are likely to play vs. Everton.

Mig, Can, Clyne, Moreno, & Lallana. You could argue for Gomez and Ibe as well seeing they were first choice when the season started.

I'd also say that players like Allen, Origi, Ibe, Gomez, Lallana, Allen & Toure all need match time and to be given a chance. They're all just on the verges of the first team (arguments against Toure&Allen) and there's also pretty much no opportunity to play these players other than in matches like these. Why have a squad if you're too scared to use it? And when you're forced to use it through injuries, who do you trust from the fringes players that haven't played at all? You'd basically be guessing at that point.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Not sure about the issue with this team. Big match on Sunday and even then we're playing a lot players who are likely to play vs. Everton.

Mig, Can, Clyne, Moreno, & Lallana....

Even if Lallana were to play against Everton, you've changed over half the side. To a very inexperienced one. In Europe. Particularly through the spine. Leaving Origi to fend for himself up front. It's hard enough for an experienced striker to do that. But a raw, inexperienced kid in Europe? Feel badly for him.

What's our best chance of Champions League football this year to you? Because I'd argue we've as good if not better a chance through the Europa if we treated it seriously as we have the league. And that's not even taking into account out coefficient which is at an all time low and slipping further as it is. Throw in a manager who has little to no experience or idea of just how to win in Europe. So even if we do make the Champions League, what confidence does he give anyone that it won't be the same as every other disastrous European season under him if we can't even progress out the Europa League groups? (Which he's lessoning his chances of with such an inexperienced side.). And a manager fighting for his life desperate for results.

If you want to give youth and fringe players a chance in Europe fine. But start out strong. Qualify. THEN do that. Resting players for the weekend league game when we're not even out of October is beyond a joke to me. If they can't play Thursday/ Sunday, with NO travelling involved, then there's something seriously wrong.

A stronger side than that played against frigging Carlisle and never looked like beating them over 2 hours. And we're left hoping a weaker one can suffice in Europe?

Sorry, completely and utterly disagree. And it's not just ourselves. It's across the board. The way English clubs keep completely disrespecting the paying public, opposition and what should be a great European competition in the Europa League is nothing shy of an absolute disgrace. Other Country's with less resources can play their strongest sides Thursday and Sunday. Why not us? Is all lame excuses to me.

Liverpool Football Club always was and still should be all about European football. The current disdain to the Europa league from all involved at the club is an absolute disgrace and detriment to all involved.

*Edit* And we all knew this was gonna' happen from the outset. We know the clubs views on not wanting to be in the competition too well. They tried there best and succeeded to get out of it the first attempt last year with the pathetically inept showing in Istanbul. And then tried every which way to not qualify through the league. On top of his previous in the competition.

But it doesn't make it any more right to see it actually happening again in practice.

There's an automatic entry into the group stages of the Champions League at stake for the winners. Which with now 5 clubs battling for those league spots; with at least 1 (and 2 if we drop to three Champions League spots going forward) clubs missing out.

What MORE incentive do these clowns need?

 

[dilakh2]

Catch-22.

He's still woefully short of full match fitness naturally, and will be a certain starter in the 100 mile an hour frenzy of the Derby Sunday.

How do you get that without playing games? But you don't want to over do it. I'd of had him on the bench at the least tomorrow personally.

What makes it more frustrating is he's liable to rest Ings too with Benteke out and play Origi on his own up front again. This is a very loosable game the side he's liable to put out there which is a joke in itself considering the opposition. With back-to-backs against Kazan to follow, like Utd tonight, this is a must win game.

But with the clubs attitude toward the Europa, I aren't expecting a W. Sighs.

In this day and age match fitness isn't even a problem, players can easily get match fit behind the scenes. The problem is match sharpness and getting in tune with the pace of a 90 min football game in the premier league. So I would rather daniel sat this one out and instead release him on the bitters.

 

[LFCMarshall]

The squad could be stronger, and it annoys me that the club doesn't take the competition seriously. But that team, if correct, is strong enough to qualify from the group stages and will be firm favourites tomorrow night

Here's hoping for another win before the derby!

 

[mersk]

Leaving Origi to fend for himself up front. It's hard enough for an experienced striker to do that. But a raw, inexperienced kid in Europe? Feel badly for him.

Origi is gonna get playing time under hopeless circumstances, leaving him alienated and disillusioned with life at Anfield. Rodgers has said he's not gonna be sent on loan this season, but who's to say about next season? We saw what happened with Markovic. Constantly subbed on or off, constantly played out of position, eventually sent out on loan. And why? Because the talent wasn't there? Or because it wasn't Rodgers' own signing but a committee one? Like with Origi.

I know it hasn't happened yet with Origi, but I just feel he's gonna end up on the same path. And it makes zero sense to me, they're both great talents, but Rodgers (at least with Markovic) doesn't seem like he's even interested in developing it.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Origi is gonna get playing time under hopeless circumstances, leaving him alienated and disillusioned with life at Anfield. Rodgers has said he's not gonna be sent on loan this season, but who's to say about next season? We saw what happened with Markovic. Constantly subbed on or off, constantly played out of position, eventually sent out on loan. And why? Because the talent wasn't there? Or because it wasn't Rodgers' own signing but a committee one? Like with Origi.

I know it hasn't happened yet with Origi, but I just feel he's gonna end up on the same path. And it makes zero sense to me, they're both great talents, but Rodgers (at least with Markovic) doesn't seem like he's even interested in developing it.

That's what Markovic reeked of to me mate. Rodgers sending a big FU to the owners and their 'committee.'

He could of been real useful the league cup and Europe at the least to get more experience with us. And if you had to loan him, loan him in England where he can get experience of the demands of the English game and the crazy way we play.

Sending him to Turkey is helping nobody.

 

[mersk]

Loaning out Markovic will only decrease his value, but he's not alone in that regard. Let's look at the players who are still here since Rodgers arrived:

(Wall of text incoming)

1st season:
Joe Allen, £15m
Daniel Sturridge, £12m
Phillipe Coutinho, £8.5m

2nd season:
Luis Alberto, £6,8M+£1,7M
Simon Mignolet, £9M+£1M
Tiago Ilori, £7M
Mamadou Sakho, £15-18M (Figures vary between sources)

3rd season:
Adam Lallana, £23M + £2M
Emre Can, £9,75M
Lazar Markovic, £20M
Dejan Lovren, £16M + £4M
Divock Origi, £9,8M
Alberto Moreno, £12M
Mario Balotelli, £16M

4th season:
Joe Gomez, £3.5M + £2.5M
Roberto Firmino, £21M + £8M
Nathaniel Clyne, £10.5M + £1,5M
Christian Benteke, £32,5M

I didn't include players signed on a free or youngsters.

So who can we say for certain have had an increase in value since their arrival? I'd go with these:
Sturridge
Coutinho
Can
Gomez
Clyne

You could argue players like Sakho, Origi and Moreno, but I'm not convinced. Sakho would definitely've had his value increased if he got the playing time he deserved. Origi has joined too recently, and Moreno has had ups and downs.

What about players who have definitely had a decrease in value? I'd propose these:
Allen
Alberto
Mignolet
Ilori
Lallana
Markovic
Lovren
Balotelli

You could make a case for Firmino and Benteke as well, but for me it's the same case as with Origi. Mignolet wasn't expensive, but keepers generally aren't, and I can't see why his value should've gone up. I should add that perhaps including Clyne and Gomez as successful signings is unfair considering they arrived at the same time as Firmino and Benteke, but in my opinion it's easier to classify Clyne and Gomez as successful than to classify Firmino and Benteke as either successful or failed. This is, of course, a matter of opinion.

So that's 5 players with an increase in value, and 8 players with a decrease. Bear in mind I'm not counting the players who have already left, but if I did, there's Assaidi who was sold for +£1.7m, Lambert who was sold for -£1.5m, Aspas at -£3.3m, and Borini at ~£0m.

So, assuming you don't disagree too much so far, which of these players are Rodgers signings and which are Committee signings? This is where it gets hazy, as there's no way to be 100% certain either way. But based on reports from some of the more reliable sources around the club, along with the knowledge of Rodgers' partiality towards "PL proven" players, I'll go out on a limb with this list:

Players increased in value:
Sturridge (Committee)
Coutinho (Committee)
Can (Committee)
Gomez (Rodgers)
Clyne (Rodgers)

We've recently learned that Sturridge was in fact not a Rodgers signing, but that he actually was opposed to the idea at the start. Coutinho and Can are obvious Committee signings in my opinion: Foreign, young talent well below (or above, whatever you prefer) Rodgers' radar. Clyne is fairly obvious, and a good signing. Gomez has been given playing time ahead of Moreno, which makes it even easier to determine he's a Rodgers signing. So to conclude, 3-2 Committee so far.

Players decreased in value:
Allen (Rodgers)
Alberto (Committee)
Mignolet (Committee)*
Ilori (Committee)
Lallana (Rodgers)
Markovic (Committee)
Lovren (Rodgers)
Balotelli (Committee)

*I'm honestly unsure about Mignolet. Considering he came from a Premier League side and should've been replaced long ago by a better keeper, you could argue he's a Rodgers signing. But his fairly average price, his "moneyball" numbers as far as shot stopping goes, combined with the general speculation among pundits, I'm classifying him as a committee signing. Assuming this is correct (which it of course doesn't have to be), that's 5-3 in favour of Rodgers.

If we add these two groups together, it's a pretty tight race. Rodgers edges it due to one less failed signing, but the general trend is that both Rodgers and the Committee have failed.
-There have been too many expensive signings of average players.
-Too many players haven't been given a fair chance (Ilori, Markovic) while others have been given too many chances (Lovren, Allen, Mignolet).
-Rodgers' partiality towards "PL proven" players has not favoured him in any way.
-The Committee and Rodgers are in disharmony.

Summa summarum/tl;dr:

• FSG's approach to transfers has been a failure.
• Too much money has been spent on mediocrity.
• Rodgers and the Committee have not been able to join forces as intended.
• Too many players have decreased in value, and too few have increased in value.
• Rodgers' partiality towards "his own" signings has hurt the club: If you don't pick players based on merit, but on who pushed whose arrival, you're not serving the club - you're serving yourself in order to prove a point. And if you can't even prove that point - by winning matches - you're not only not serving the club, you're doing it a disservice.

PS: I'm fully aware that this is based partly on speculation and partly on my own opinions, so there's no need to remind me of it.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Boy have you been busy this evening lol.

Excellent post mersk. Appreciate the research. And hard to argue against any of it.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

The last time in the CWC. That's how long ago it was. Europe still had three competitions lol. How time fly's. One of the craziest European nights ever. Some very bevvied up L'pudlians not able to work out the away goals rule and one beut calling his misses to get her to check on teletext to great embarrassment and hilarity; and me declaring my undying love for Paddy Berger that went as far as wanting to have his babies ..... it was quite the night ha ha.

Hope tomorrows half as exciting:

[video=youtube;pYjwXpAiZhA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYjwXpAiZhA[/video]

 

[ICYUNVME]

What's our best chance of Champions League football this year to you? Because I'd argue we've as good if not better a chance through the Europa if we treated it seriously as we have the league. And that's not even taking into account out coefficient which is at an all time low and slipping further as it is. Throw in a manager who has little to no experience or idea of just how to win in Europe. So even if we do make the Champions League, what confidence does he give anyone that it won't be the same as every other disastrous European season under him if we can't even progress out the Europa League groups? (Which he's lessoning his chances of with such an inexperienced side.). And a manager fighting for his life desperate for results.

Exactly this. Even when we play our best players, we don't win thanks to (in part) Rodgers. So how on earth are we going to win the Europa with a manager who doesn't know how to win in European competitions? Even if you have a good team and a manager with EU pedigree, you're still not guaranteed to win. We're 2 points off of 4th place (or 3rd if it comes to that), of course we have to play better and keep key players fit (sturridge), but all this applies to the Europa as well. At this moment, our best chance is doing as well as we can in the League and see what happens. We really should be getting out of the group stages with this team anyway, and maybe we can take it more seriously if we do get through the groups.

At this point, I'm just purely trusting Rodgers to just be himself. If he wants to **** off the Europa and focus on the Prem, then so be it. He's pretty much rock bottom at the moment, almost impossible for him to get any worse(bar just losing every single match), let him do his thing and hopefully he can turn it around (or not **** it up to the point of it being unrecoverable).

 

[mersk]

Joyce and Barrett think Ings will start up front with Origi. Let's hope they're right.

 

[Subtle]

Phillipe Coutinho, £8.5m

I still don't know how you got Coutinho that cheap from Inter. It's not like he wasn't rated at the time either.

The only thing I can think of is that (I think) Inter signed Kovacic in the same window for the same money. If that's the case though, that's an absolutely crazy risk to take on an unproven 18yr old.

 

[sunilvk7]

I still don't know how you got Coutinho that cheap from Inter. It's not like he wasn't rated at the time either.

The only thing I can think of is that (I think) Inter signed Kovacic in the same window for the same money. If that's the case though, that's an absolutely crazy risk to take on an unproven 18yr old.

Inter went **** in Market post their treble win.

 

[LFCMarshall]

No doubting there have been mistakes made by Rodgers but this made me laugh.

BR: "There are very short memories in football. LFC was 8th when I got here. We built a team to excite people & should've won the league."

 

[LFCMarshall]

Great stuff from Origi - Bit of pace and strength and finished well from Lallana

We'll ignore the offside in the build up

 

[spook]

Origi.

 

[LFCMarshall]

Horrendous stuff from LFC at the back. A mixture of mistakes from Can, Gomez, Ibe and i personally feel Mignolet could have done better as well

 

[spook]

I sorry to say it but I can't see ibe becoming the new sterling any time soon.