The Manchester United Thread

This is the thing, he is 20 FFS. To write him off now is idiotic at best.

SAF is determined not repeat to Rossi

And for good reason. Macheda obviously has talent and if it wernt for injuries he may well have had a few more goals to his tally. I'd rather he was patient with a player (specially at 20!) than let him go, only to see him succeed when given enough of a chance!
 
Blame Messi, Ronaldo, Heskey, Bramble, Luke Chadwick for showing such a promise at very young age. Sometimes people forget that 20 is young for a footballer.

I agree, similar to what I said earlier, just with better examples ;)
 
Also, I heard people saying United should have signed Sneijder. I dont know how that would have helped. We need a proper CM and Sneijder is anything but reliable with his dodgy injury record. He missed so many games this season already and I do think he will miss many games this season.

We should have signed Vidal. 10 ******* Million. Yeah 10 ******* million for one of the most complete midfielder, who is very versatile too.
 
Wow, it was tough reading through that! It was basically the same arguements re-worded in every post! Seems there are some stubborn people on here that can't (or won't) consider anyone else's opinion oO)

I think it's pretty clear that Macheda needs time and an injury free run of games, which will only realistically come via a loan move. Nobody can really predict whether he'll be united quality in the future, but the glimpses of ability he has shown in matches alone show that he has potential.

On the Fletcher debate, for a period of 2-3 seasons he was absolutely phenominal in the big games. He's consistent, combatant and versatile, a great player to have in any squad. I feel he has lost his edge slightly, but he had a terrible illness and still looks no where near at full health. Given six months of weight and muscle bulking and I'm sure he'll return to the Fletcher of old, we need players like him in our squad.
 
Macheda is 20, yes Mike.,less than a year in age difference between him and Danny Welbeck. Look at the huge differences in Macheda now and Welbeck last year. Welbeck had his string of injuries, did well on loan before getting injured again and then struggled to make an impact. However he was MILES ahead of Macheda in terms of development and ability.

Macheda hasn't even really shone in the reserves this season, unlike Will Keane. At 20 years old you should be able to see some form of development in his play but right now his touch is horrible, his finishing is decent, he's got decent speed, times his runs horribly and can jump but struggles with headers. That sounds like a Championship player not a Champions League player. Right now I don't think he's United quality. I don't see him developing much at United with the amount of time he's getting on the pitch, so I see him going to a lower league/lesser (no offence) team and performing to a decent level but I don't think he's a top-level player. There is so much lacking in his game that he'd need to basically re-learn the majority of his game.

It's an opinion formed over a period time by myself and a number of other people. You may not agree with it, that's your perogative - but to label it "beyond a joke" is ridiculously ignorant.
 
Macheda is 20, yes Mike.,less than a year in age difference between him and Danny Welbeck. Look at the huge differences in Macheda now and Welbeck last year. Welbeck had his string of injuries, did well on loan before getting injured again and then struggled to make an impact. However he was MILES ahead of Macheda in terms of development and ability.

Macheda hasn't even really shone in the reserves this season, unlike Will Keane. At 20 years old you should be able to see some form of development in his play but right now his touch is horrible, his finishing is decent, he's got decent speed, times his runs horribly and can jump but struggles with headers. That sounds like a Championship player not a Champions League player. Right now I don't think he's United quality. I don't see him developing much at United with the amount of time he's getting on the pitch, so I see him going to a lower league/lesser (no offence) team and performing to a decent level but I don't think he's a top-level player. There is so much lacking in his game that he'd need to basically re-learn the majority of his game.

It's an opinion formed over a period time by myself and a number of other people. You may not agree with it, that's your perogative - but to label it "beyond a joke" is ridiculously ignorant.

again different players. different pacings. **** me, its really simple. lets wait a few years. NOT EVERY ONE DEVELOPS THE SAME. its a really simple point. not saying he will be amazing, he may not develop. but you wait and see. not ditch him at 20. Jesus wept. Bored of this now. comparisons to other players are irrelevant. They are not macheda.
 
again different players. different pacings. **** me, its really simple. lets wait a few years. NOT EVERY ONE DEVELOPS THE SAME. its a really simple point. not saying he will be amazing, he may not develop. but you wait and see. not ditch him at 20. Jesus wept. Bored of this now. comparisons to other players are irrelevant. They are not macheda.

Obvious example is Didier Drogba. He wasn't any good until he was about 23/24: five years on from that and he was one of the most lethal strikers in the world. To a lesser extent, look at James Milner: again, he was average until he was 24, at which point he took a huge step up.
 
again different players. different pacings. **** me, its really simple. lets wait a few years. NOT EVERY ONE DEVELOPS THE SAME. its a really simple point. not saying he will be amazing, he may not develop. but you wait and see. not ditch him at 20. Jesus wept. Bored of this now. comparisons to other players are irrelevant. They are not macheda.
Where did I say we should ditch him? I said I don't think he's United quality. That's not saying throw him away he's ****. That's saying, I don't think he's good enough for Manchester United. You keep mentioning the other strikers, he's not going to get games here. Send him out on loan to a Premier League club and see what happens, fine. But with the team we have and options we have up front he's not going to break in. He's not better than many of the strikers already at clubs in the Premier League, they're not going to play him just because he's on loan from Manchester United.

Looking at the clubs in the Premiership who have been linked -
Bolton - Davies, Klasnic,Tuncay, N'Gog (all better than Macheda)
Blackburn - Yakubu, Roberts, Goodwillie (all better than Macheda)
QPR - Helguson, DJ Campbell, Bothroyd (all better than Macheda)

Why would they play Macheda ahead of their other strikers when they're battling for places in this league. He's not better than what they already have and they don't owe United anything to help develop their players.I'm not saying he's 100% not going to make it, the same way you're not saying he's 100% going to make it - I'm saying I don't think he will in my opinion. I haven't said he has no chance, or that he's rubbish/**** - I've said I don't think he will. You don't have to rubbish everyone's opinion because you don't like it/agree with it. Debate it, fine - but accept people won't agree with you.

Also, GC - Drogba was like a one-off. Barely no-one is unknown at 24/25 and still manages to make the step up to world-level football. I can't think of anyone else except him that's done that. Milner was a well known talent at a younger age, he just switched positions and got better at 24/25, very different. Much like Mike. saying Welbeck and Macheda are different (although they're quite similar).
 
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Where did I say we should ditch him? I said I don't think he's United quality. That's not saying throw him away he's ****. That's saying, I don't think he's good enough for Manchester United. You keep mentioning the other strikers, he's not going to get games here. Send him out on loan to a Premier League club and see what happens, fine. But with the team we have and options we have up front he's not going to break in. He's not better than many of the strikers already at clubs in the Premier League, they're not going to play him just because he's on loan from Manchester United.

Looking at the clubs in the Premiership who have been linked -
Bolton - Davies, Klasnic,Tuncay, N'Gog (all better than Macheda)
Blackburn - Yakubu, Roberts, Goodwillie (all better than Macheda)
QPR - Helguson, DJ Campbell, Bothroyd (all better than Macheda)

Why would they play Macheda ahead of their other strikers when they're battling for places in this league. He's not better than what they already have and they don't owe United anything to help develop their players.I'm not saying he's 100% not going to make it, the same way you're not saying he's 100% going to make it - I'm saying I don't think he will in my opinion. I haven't said he has no chance, or that he's rubbish/**** - I've said I don't think he will. You don't have to rubbish everyone's opinion because you don't like it/agree with it. Debate it, fine - but accept people won't agree with you.

Also, GC - Drogba was like a one-off. Barely no-one is unknown at 24/25 and still manages to make the step up to world-level football. I can't think of anyone else except him that's done that. Milner was a well known talent at a younger age, he just switched positions and got better at 24/25, very different. Much like Mike. saying Welbeck and Macheda are different (although they're quite similar).

Right, so you are honestly telling me, that at 20 you are 100 percent sure that he cant get any better? You have seen into the future and that we shouldnt develop him, even though it doesnt actually hurt us to hold onto him and wait and see? And thats ignoring the fact that SAF develops players even if he thinks they wont make it for the club but can be relatively succesful in their career. The question isnt about whether or not he can make it, we dont know either way yet. But to release him at just 20, given that he has had a tough 18 months, given that some players develop quiker than others, given that it doesnt hurt us to wait and see a couple of seasons; is foolhardy. To say at 20 he isnt united quality is shortsighted, we dont know that either way, yet. We have no idea what can happen. And i stand by that. You missed the point between macheda and welbeck, im talking about how one player develops differently to another...

Now onto to something more tangible...
 
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Manchester United Q1 2011/12 results: The big red money machine slowed down by debt


The first quarter of United's 2011/12 financial year saw a familiar story of a very profitable football club servicing some pretty expensive debt. Because the club is so profitable at the operating level (and full credit to the players, coaching staff and commercial team for making it so), the debt can be comfortably serviced. The threat of substantial dividends seems to have disappeared at the moment, but the sheer sums of money wasted by the Glazers' financial structure remains eye watering.






Revenue
Matchday
There were four home matches at Old Trafford during the quarter as there were in the prior year, with attendances virtually identical. Seasonal hospitality sold out for the first time in several years, adding £400,000 to income. The other c. £1.4m growth came from a bigger US tour (tour income is included in "matchday").


Media
The substantial growth here (up £3.2m) reflects a final payment from UEFA for last season's Champions League campaign which has been accounted for this financial year. United also receive a greater share of the Champions League English "market pool" this season. This is because we were Premier League champions last season rather than runners-up the year before.


Commercial
The £5.4m year-on-year growth in Commercial revenue comes from a variety of sources including the DHL training kit deal (worth around £2-2.5m per quarter), step-ups in existing deals (such as Aon) and the inclusion of partnerships signed post Q1 2010/11. On the bond holder conference call the club talked of "many" additional opportunities on the commercial side. United has by far the most successful commercial operation in English football, but still lags behind some major European clubs (especially Bayern Munich). The Stratton Street office in London now has over forty staff.


Costs
Staff costs
Despite the retirement of several senior players over the summer and the sale of Brown, O'Shea and Obertan, staff costs again increased sharply, by 12.2% vs. the previous year. The club said they "continue to face pressure" on wage costs. The club confirmed they had signed new deals with Valencia, Smalling, Park, Cleverley and Hernandez. Some of the cost pressure came from a further expansion of the London commercial team.


Despite the 12.2% rise in staff costs, the ratio of staff costs to income actually fell slightly vs. last year from 53.2% to 51.2%. By way of comparison, the figure at Arsenal in 2010/11 was 55.2% (football revenue only), at Barcelona was 58.3% and at Real Madrid was 45.0%.


Other operating costs
Other costs (ex-depreciation and amortisation) rose sharply up 13.3% year-on-year. Some of this is due to the expansion of the commercial operations and associated costs (the club revealed they pay for some elements of partner companies' advertising, such as the Turkish Airlines TV advert). The other main factor relates to the larger and more costly US pre-season tour.


EBITDA to EBIT
With revenues up 16.6% and costs up 12.6%, EBITDA (earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation) rose 29.6% to £19.3m for the quarter. This represents a 26.1% margin, which is good for Q1 (a seasonally weak quarter).


Depreciation grew slightly to £1.8m. The club achieved an accounting profit on selling Brown, O'Shea and Obertan of £5.6m. The amortisation charge (how transfer spending is recognised in the profit and loss account) was virtually unchanged at £10m. This all meant that EBIT rose substantially from £4.9m to £13.0m.


There was no goodwill amortisation charge now Red Football has moved from UK GAAP to International Accounting Standards.


Below EBIT
The P&L interest charge was £10.0m, lower than the prior year reflecting the interest saved by the club buying back bonds over the previous twelve months.


In addition to this interest charge there were £9.3m of non-cash accounting charges. These relate to changes in the value of United's debt caused by the pound depreciating vs. the US dollar (£6.3m), the premium paid on repurchased bonds (£1.9m), the ongoing bond issue discount and issue cost amortisation (£803,000) and a small mark to market movement in interest rate swap (£321,000). In the previous year these items were a positive £11.4m and are of no real importance to the club's financial position.


Cash flow, interest and debt
EBITDA of £19.3m and a £3.2m inflow from working capital (largely prepayments on commercial deals) meant the club saw a £22.5m operating cash inflow during the quarter, virtually identical to the prior year despite the strong profit growth.






There was an August coupon payment on the bonds (the other payment is in February each year) of £21m and the club actually paid £3.2m in corporation tax, a rarity caused by group losses in 2010/11 being insufficient to offset the entire tax charge.


The club spent a substantial £13.8m on capital expenditure, including £8.2m on property near Old Trafford with the balance being spent on box refurbishment in the ground.


Unlike Q1 2010/11, there was substantial transfer spending in Q1 2011/12. The club spent a net £47.1m buying De Gea, Young and Jones (netting off receipts for the players sold).


The combination of heavy capex and transfer spending meant there was £62.6m outflow before financing. The club bought back a further £23.1m of bonds, meaning the total cash outflow for the quarter of £85.7m.


The club's cash balance fell sharply from £150.6m at the end of June to £65m at the end of September. Gross debt (excluding bonds held in treasury) is down to £433.2m, meaning net debt is £368m, up slightly on the same date last year.


Thoughts
Another £21m of interest and £23m of bond buybacks takes the total cost of the Glazers' financial model to an eye watering £578m. There have been some savings along the way (corporation tax savings of around £100m), but the net cost is clear.


There are very few football clubs that could support a burden like that, after all Hicks and Gillett's Kop Holdings Limited collapsed after a couple of years with a lower interest bill than United's. Thankfully, Manchester United can cope with its current level of interest. The club's resilience is down to good management, good luck and good fortune. It is largely of course a product of Sir Alex Ferguson's extraordinary record.


Despite the fact that the club's £100m+ of annual EBITDA can support the £40m+ of interest paid each year and still leave funds for investment, the mooted IPO in Singapore (currently on hold of course) tells its own story.


United's debt is expensive at an effective rate of c. 8.5% at a time of very low interest rates. The club's wage structure cannot apparently be stretched to afford a Wesley Sneijder type purchase, and net cash transfer spending since the Glazers took over is only £114.6m or £21.8m per year.


The House of Commons Select Committee report on Football Governance was highly critical of leveraged buyouts in football and the Department of Culture, Media and Sport response acknowledged this. The crushing cost of the Glazers' LBO are clear every time Red Football reports results. Just because United can "afford" to waste millions, it doesn't mean it's right or sensible.


If the club does do an IPO to reduce debt it appears that message has even made it to Florida.....

 
Also, GC - Drogba was like a one-off. Barely no-one is unknown at 24/25 and still manages to make the step up to world-level football. I can't think of anyone else except him that's done that. Milner was a well known talent at a younger age, he just switched positions and got better at 24/25, very different. Much like Mike. saying Welbeck and Macheda are different (although they're quite similar).

Grafite - didn't have much of a career until he was 25, best years of his career at Wolfsburg who he joined aged 28, culminating in 28 goals in 25 games at the age of 30. A relative unknown beforehand.

Luca Toni - Serie C/B journeyman until the age of 26 when he joined Serie B side Palermo.

Eric Cantona - had a lot of trouble in France, moved to Leeds at the age of 26 and really kick-started his career

Miroslav Klose
- think he was 22 when he made his Kaiserslautern debut, then years later he won the golden boot at the WC

Kevin Phillips - played non-league and 2nd division football before signing for Sunderland at the age of 24

DJ Campbell - was 24 when he got his move to Brentford after bouncing around the non-leagues and has since represented 3 premiership clubs

Javi Varas - not well known, but made his Sevilla debut at the age of 27 having signed from an amateur club 5 years earlier. Saved a Messi penalty and remains Sevilla's back up 'keeper
 
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Right, so you are honestly telling me, that at 20 you are 100 percent sure that he cant get any better? You have seen into the future and that we shouldnt develop him, even though it doesnt actually hurt us to hold onto him and wait and see? And thats ignoring the fact that SAF develops players even if he thinks they wont make it for the club but can be relatively succesful in their career. The question isnt about whether or not he can make it, we dont know either way yet. But to release him at just 20, given that he has had a tough 18 months, given that some players develop quiker than others, given that it doesnt hurt us to wait and see a couple of seasons; is foolhardy. To say at 20 he isnt united quality is shortsighted, we dont know that either way, yet. We have no idea what can happen. And i stand by that. You missed the point between macheda and welbeck, im talking about how one player develops differently to another...

Now onto to something more tangible...

Talk about taking something completely out of context oO)

Where did I say we should release him? Where did I say he is definitely not going to make it? READ THE POST! My words were;

"I'm not saying he's 100% not going to make it, the same way you're not saying he's 100% going to make it - I'm saying I don't think he will in my opinion. I haven't said he has no chance, or that he's rubbish/**** - I've said I don't think he will."


So no, I haven't seen into the future. But from what I have seen, he won't improve that much considering how much he's improved in 3 years. There's nothing to suggest that he will shoot up and develop. There is something there to suggest he won't, the fact he has barely developed in 3 years since "that" goal.

You're acting like my word is gospel and that I'm acting like what I'm saying is fact. It's not, I've just stated an opinion and you've decided to go overboard and insult it with your own opinion which also has no actual grounds to work on. We're both going off chance, you just can't seem to accept that I may be right and he may not actually be Manchester United quality.
 
Grafite - didn't have much of a career until he was 25, best years of his career at Wolfsburg who he joined aged 28, culminating in 28 goals in 25 games at the age of 30. A relative unknown beforehand.

Luca Toni - Serie C/B journeyman until the age of 26 when he joined Serie B side Palermo.

Eric Cantona - had a lot of trouble in France, moved to Leeds at the age of 26 and really kick-started his career

Miroslav Klose
- think he was 22 when he made his Kaiserslautern debut, then 2 years later he won the golden boot at the WC

Kevin Phillips - played non-league and 2nd division football before signing for Sunderland at the age of 24

DJ Campbell - was 24 when he got his move to Brentford after bouncing around the non-leagues and has since represented 3 premiership clubs

Javi Varas - not well known, but made his Sevilla debut at the age of 27 having signed from an amateur club 5 years earlier. Saved a Messi penalty and remains Sevilla's back up 'keeper

Apart from Toni, Klose and Cantona - none of those are on a world level.

EDIT: RE the last one, that's terrible. He saved a Messi penalty so that means he counters a point. He's a back-up goalkeeper and has been for 6 years. Just because he saves a penalty doesn't mean he's good enough :S
 
Talk about taking something completely out of context oO)

Where did I say we should release him? Where did I say he is definitely not going to make it? READ THE POST! My words were;

"I'm not saying he's 100% not going to make it, the same way you're not saying he's 100% going to make it - I'm saying I don't think he will in my opinion. I haven't said he has no chance, or that he's rubbish/**** - I've said I don't think he will."


So no, I haven't seen into the future. But from what I have seen, he won't improve that much considering how much he's improved in 3 years. There's nothing to suggest that he will shoot up and develop. There is something there to suggest he won't, the fact he has barely developed in 3 years since "that" goal.

You're acting like my word is gospel and that I'm acting like what I'm saying is fact. It's not, I've just stated an opinion and you've decided to go overboard and insult it with your own opinion which also has no actual grounds to work on. We're both going off chance, you just can't seem to accept that I may be right and he may not actually be Manchester United quality.


No, its the fact the we cant be cartain in either way what he is going to be.

Made that quite clear, i repeatedly said he may not develop. the point is we dont know. and to write him off at 20 withouit being certain is short sighted. The point is you may be right, you may be wrong. WE DONT KNOW. We dont know if this is the best he can be, or if he can get much better. He is just 20 after all

that is why to cut off at 20 is short sighted becuase there is no way to see how he will develop went he is still raw.
 
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Apart from Toni, Klose and Cantona - none of those are on a world level.

EDIT: RE the last one, that's terrible. He saved a Messi penalty so that means he counters a point. He's a back-up goalkeeper and has been for 6 years. Just because he saves a penalty doesn't mean he's good enough :S

The point was more that you can develop late or start a career at an advanced age, not that they are world class. Javier Hernandez isn't 'world class', Ole Gunnar Solksjaer :wub: wasn't 'world class', doesn't mean they aren't United quality.
 
No, its the fact the we cant be cartain in either way what he is going be at the age of 20. Made that quite clear, i repeatedly said he may not develop. the point is we dont know. and to write him off at 20 withouit being certain is short sighted. The point is you may be right, you may be wrong. WE DONT KNOW. that is why do cut off at 20 is short sighted becuase there is now ay to see how he will develop went he is still raw. Way to miss my point.

I haven't said it's not short sighted. I've given an opinion. Just like people are saying "Mario Goetze is going to be world-class" we don't know, because he hasn't fully developed. He could grow 7 inches in the next 6 months and lose all his pace. We don't know, but everyone is making an assumption based on current ability and how much they've progressed in recent times. I'm doing it to pass a judgement that I don't believe he will make it. In the same way people think Goetze will make it.

Of course we don't know, but just because we can't tell doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the matter, and it certainly doesn't mean you can blast my opinion because you don't agree with it.
 
The point was more that you can develop late or start a career at an advanced age, not that they are world class. Javier Hernandez isn't 'world class', Ole Gunnar Solksjaer :wub: wasn't 'world class', doesn't mean they aren't United quality.

Onto bigger news though, new financial figures arent great. Its clear why we didnt get Wesley, could not stretch to his demands (which were huge in all fairness). They need to make this float happen
 
I haven't said it's not short sighted. I've given an opinion. Just like people are saying "Mario Goetze is going to be world-class" we don't know, because he hasn't fully developed. He could grow 7 inches in the next 6 months and lose all his pace. We don't know, but everyone is making an assumption based on current ability and how much they've progressed in recent times. I'm doing it to pass a judgement that I don't believe he will make it. In the same way people think Goetze will make it.

Of course we don't know, but just because we can't tell doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the matter, and it certainly doesn't mean you can blast my opinion because you don't agree with it.

where did i say you cant have an opinon? oh right, i didnt. i said to judge at player at 20 after the 18 months he's had is short-sighted.
 
The point was more that you can develop late or start a career at an advanced age, not that they are world class. Javier Hernandez isn't 'world class', Ole Gunnar Solksjaer :wub: wasn't 'world class', doesn't mean they aren't United quality.

Difference is, they both do their job exceptionally well. They both scored goals, Macheda hasn't done that. He doesn't score goals when he plays and generally plays quite poorly. But because of the goal he scored vs Villa, a lot of fans (not saying anyone here does) still think he has the ability to become a world beater and amazing for Manchester United. Paul Robinson scored a free-kick from his own half, that doesn't make him a free-kick specialist though (complete different extreme but the basis of the point is the same).
 
Onto bigger news though, new financial figures arent great. Its clear why we didnt get Wesley, could not stretch to his demands (which were huge in all fairness). They need to make this float happen

Yeah, it was clearly more important to use the wage budget available to tie down key young players to long term contracts. It's not really Sneijder's fault, he's on ridiculous money at Inter and their tax rules are so much more beneficial to him. Why should he take a huge paycut?
 
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