The Manchester United Thread

Before I get my head bitten off however, I would clarify one thing I said, when I said culture and history for Liverpool and Arsenal I'm not inferring that Chelsea and City dont have any.
 
As I mentioned the only way to really bridge this club is to throw money at teams. Its not that Ambramovich demanded success fast. He realised its the easiest and surest way to bridge the gap.
It's not though is it. You only have to look at the state of the economy in general that by throwing more money at a problem makes for disaterous results. It leads to hyperinflation and you can see evidence of this forming in the transfer market today. Look at the Moura deal to PSG he is reported to be on a 3million a year contract for a 19yo who is unproven is european football. The more sugar daddys the more problems created. Guaranteed.

How is it fair that the sort of Brand Appeal Manchester United enjoy and the commercial revenues they bring in will never be achieved by other clubs no matter how hard they try?
Your forgetting the fact that the club built up this fan base over many decades and this is what we have to show for it, the only reason we are the only club left out of the original trio of Liverpool arsenal and united is that we as a club have not been completly crippled by money problems as Liverpool were or poor form. We have stability in the core management at united which have let us have the large fan base that you have a problem with. Point is we built it. Sugar daddy clubs have bought it. like the old saying money earned is a lot sweeter than money gained.
 
Urgh, is this really going to devolve into an argument over the legitimacy of income? Can people not just accept that money always has and always will play a massive part in any game that has lax transfer regulations, no noticeable caps and little desire to change? As I pointed out in my last post, United are hardly innocent of buying success and if we now turn to attaching abstract values to money in order to find some sort of moral superiority, it'll only end in a mess, especially as it implies that one needs to "deserve" the money that they acquire, which, given that a large part of United's massive sustained financial empire comes not from the success that they achieve on the field but the cult of personality that created and exported to Asia, seems like a shaky argument at best.
 
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[h=1]United to start trading[/h] [h=3]English giants to start trading in New York[/h]
Manchester United shares will start trading in New York later on Friday at a big discount on the club's earlier expectations over its worth.
United's advisers will offer a 10% stake at a price of US$14 (£9), valuing it at around £1.5billion, but much lower than the range of US$16 to 20 (£10-12) it had hoped to achieve, worth up to £2.1billion.
The club, bought by the Glazer family in 2005 for about £800million, will raise about US$233m (£149m) and this will be partly used to pay off some of its debt.
The lower flotation price comes after the Glazer family, which also owns the Tampa Bay Buccaneers NFL gridiron team, previously failed to garner sufficient support to sell shares on exchanges in Hong Kong and Singapore.
However, United, who claim to have a global fanbase of about 660 million and have won a record 19 Premier League titles, is still one of the world's most valuable sports teams.
The club's shares will begin trading on Friday under the stock market ticker Manu.
[h=4]Disappointing[/h]Richard Hunter, head of UK equities at Hargreaves Lansdown stockbrokers, said the lowering of the flotation price was "disappointing but not unexpected".
"As was the case with the UK experience, football clubs are notoriously difficult investments, ultimately tied to the fortunes of the club on the pitch," he added.
"However, interest in the sport is taking off in the US and last night's Olympics victory for the women's football team is likely to fuel interest further."
It had been expected that the Glazers would make about £90m from the deal, with the remaining proceeds raised in the initial public offering (IPO) used to pay down some of the 134-year-old club's debt, which was last reported to be around £423m.
Although the listing has been planned for some time, the Glazer family originally claimed all the proceeds would go towards paying down United's debt, angering fans.
A successful IPO would reportedly result in investors owning 42% of the shares available but only carrying voting rights of 1.3%.
[h=5]Boycott[/h]Earlier this month, a leading Manchester United fans' group called for a boycott of the club's expanding portfolio of sponsors in protest at the planned flotation.
A statement from the Manchester United Supporters Trust (MUST) read: "The Manchester United Supporters Trust has today called for a worldwide boycott of Manchester United sponsors' products, with support across the UK, Europe, Asia and the US.
"The boycott strategy is intended to send a loud and clear message to the Glazer family and club sponsors that, without the support and purchasing power of the fans, the global strength of the Manchester United brand doesn't actually exist."
MUST has tried such tactics before during the Glazer regime, although it has not prevented the Red Devils' territory-specific approach allowing them to become the first club to smash through the annual £100m barrier for commercial revenue alone.

United to start trading | Manchester United News, Fixtures, Results, Transfers | Sky Sports
 
It's not though is it. You only have to look at the state of the economy in general that by throwing more money at a problem makes for disaterous results. It leads to hyperinflation and you can see evidence of this forming in the transfer market today. Look at the Moura deal to PSG he is reported to be on a 3million a year contract for a 19yo who is unproven is european football. The more sugar daddys the more problems created. Guaranteed.


Your forgetting the fact that the club built up this fan base over many decades and this is what we have to show for it, the only reason we are the only club left out of the original trio of Liverpool arsenal and united is that we as a club have not been completly crippled by money problems as Liverpool were or poor form. We have stability in the core management at united which have let us have the large fan base that you have a problem with. Point is we built it. Sugar daddy clubs have bought it. like the old saying money earned is a lot sweeter than money gained.


Exactly what Subtle said. Your saying that we should 'deserve' the money we receive when the way you went about building your club is exactly the same way Chelsea/City did.
 
We have it because we are successful. Let's take Anzhi for example. They achieved nothing, they have ****** fanbase, but they can spend more then us.

So your always going to be bitter whenever another club wants to bridge the gap and finds that being backed by a sugar daddy is the quickest and most effective way to do so completely ignoring the fact that you are guilty of rising up the same way yourself?
 
I forgot nothing, you simply are strengthening my point that the league was competitive before the sugar daddies came along. You didn't have those revenues because of mismanagement at the top and lack of a visionary chairman or business model being put in place, of course winning league titles helps but you simply just pointed out City and Chelsea's failing's by saying that Liverpool and Arsenal had global fanbases and presence which they had to achieve through normal marketing roots. They're not benefits, what your club has is a benefit, what those two have is a culture and history and business plans that worked for them when the PL showed up in the 90's.

A team that you could point to quite well is Tottenham who have quietly plugged away at the business side of football and are now (That they managed to get a decent manager to manage their young stars) looking like CL probables every season, they have sat in Arsenal's shadow for years yet they still make good money and get good players and challenge, Sugar daddies are not always the answer to bridging that gap, sometimes you just need the combination of a good manager and chairman to do it!.


I completely disagree with what you have said. Your saying that having a visionary chairman and a effective business model will help any club reach the dominace Man Utd/Liverpool have in the commercial market eventually. Yes it does help but don't tell me that Arsenal/Man Utd have the sort of commercial dominance they do solely because they managed themselves well when the EPL was born.
 
I completely disagree with what you have said. Your saying that having a visionary chairman and a effective business model will help any club reach the dominace Man Utd/Liverpool have in the commercial market eventually. Yes it does help but don't tell me that Arsenal/Man Utd have the sort of commercial dominance they do solely because they managed themselves well when the EPL was born.

In time, yes. To say a club can't rise to the top without a sugar daddy is just defeatist, it's just not a short term process. Any business in the free market can eventually make it to the top, provided they have the fundamentals, the same is true for football, IMO.
 
In time, yes. To say a club can't rise to the top without a sugar daddy is just defeatist, it's just not a short term process. Any business in the free market can eventually make it to the top, provided they have the fundamentals, the same is true for football, IMO.

Not saying a club cannot rise to the top without a sugar daddy. However having one is the quickest and most effective way to do so... Other ways as you suggested which relies on fundamentals and a sound business strategy does take long and you need smart/effective people at the top along with some luck.
 
Not saying a club cannot rise to the top without a sugar daddy. However having one is the quickest and most effective way to do so... Other ways as you suggested which relies on fundamentals and a sound business strategy does take long and you need smart/effective people at the top along with some luck.

I'd argue that Ferguson is the much bigger reason for our continued success. Yes, he's had the money, but no other man has achieved his level of success, money or not. Plenty of teams have had money achieved a little and failed or been inconsistent.
 
So your always going to be bitter whenever another club wants to bridge the gap and finds that being backed by a sugar daddy is the quickest and most effective way to do so completely ignoring the fact that you are guilty of rising up the same way yourself?
Do I sound bitter ? No. And I'm not. How are they going to close the gap ?
One way is throwing money like some clubs do.
Other way is to patient. Bilbao style.
I'm not saying that we are not spending money. We are. But the club made that money. Not some oil guru. Do you understand that ? We are spending money we earned. Anzhi i.e can spend the same amount, maybe even more, but they didn't earn a penny. How the **** is that fair ? You're saying that fair because it's the only thing they can do to close the gap ? Wrong! Smart financial and transfer politic is way better, but slower.
 
I'd argue that Ferguson is the much bigger reason for our continued success. Yes, he's had the money, but no other man has achieved his level of success, money or not. Plenty of teams have had money achieved a little and failed or been inconsistent.

Yea definitely nobody is denying that Ferguson has been a huge part of the reason for your continued dominace of the top. But nobody would deny that with having a lot of money, any club can achieve a reasonable amount of success. If you have a manager like Ferguson, you can even do better.

Point is that money is an integral part for any club who wishes to remain at the top for a extended period of time. Yes you can always have 'dream' seasons like Montpellier just had but I would bet my cajones that Montpellier will not be winning the League title next season
 
I completely disagree with what you have said. Your saying that having a visionary chairman and a effective business model will help any club reach the dominace Man Utd/Liverpool have in the commercial market eventually. Yes it does help but don't tell me that Arsenal/Man Utd have the sort of commercial dominance they do solely because they managed themselves well when the EPL was born.

Thats alright I have nothing more to say on the topic if thats the case, we shall agree to disagree and move on.
 
Do I sound bitter ? No. And I'm not. How are they going to close the gap ?
One way is throwing money like some clubs do.
Other way is to patient. Bilbao style.
I'm not saying that we are not spending money. We are. But the club made that money. Not some oil guru. Do you understand that ? We are spending money we earned. Anzhi i.e can spend the same amount, maybe even more, but they didn't earn a penny. How the **** is that fair ? You're saying that fair because it's the only thing they can do to close the gap ? Wrong! Smart financial and transfer politic is way better, but slower.


Calm down. As I have pointed out, the only reason you make so much money is because of the brand value and global fanbase you have. That is why you can spend within your means. Its simple really... A guy who makes 10 million dollars a year will never have to take a loan to get that Cartier Watch. A guy who makes 500k a year will have to.

This is made worse by the fact that the poorer guy will likely have to wait a good deal many more years and have lady luck shine on him if he ever wants to get into the sort of salary bracket the rich guy enjoys. But then he really wants that watch right now.

Manchester United are the rich guy. Chelsea are the poor guy. Ambramovich is the bank. (H)


And I never said that is the only thing they can do to close the gap. But by god it surely is the quickest and most effective way
 
Yea definitely nobody is denying that Ferguson has been a huge part of the reason for your continued dominace of the top. But nobody would deny that with having a lot of money, any club can achieve a reasonable amount of success. If you have a manager like Ferguson, you can even do better.

Point is that money is an integral part for any club who wishes to remain at the top for a extended period of time. Yes you can always have 'dream' seasons like Montpellier just had but I would bet my cajones that Montpellier will not be winning the League title next season

I believe a lot of people care about clubs who have been given money, in the same way someone who wins the lottery, people don't care about them - just a little bit jealous. Whereas someone who's a selfmade millionaire, you respect them for their achievement.
 
I'd say a club like Ajax has suffered the most from the sugar daddy era of football (as well as the Premier League's crazy TV money). Whereas before they could rely on an excelent youth system and a good business set up which allowed them to win European trophies, their situation is now one where they can't afford to keep hold of their good youngsters and thus can't build a team capable of challenging for the top honours in Europe (as they had done for decades previously).
 
I believe a lot of people care about clubs who have been given money, in the same way someone who wins the lottery, people don't care about them - just a little bit jealous. Whereas someone who's a selfmade millionaire, you respect them for their achievement.

Point being?
 
That Chelsea are the ones who won the lottery.

Actually I can sort of understand where your coming from although getting intangibles qualities like respect etc. into this argument is irrelevant
 
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And Manchester United are the self-made millionaire? Sigh Joel

You don't think so? Even though you've spent pages arguing with people arguing that very point, and yet you never argued against that point. You said our commercial advantage is unfair, but we earned that - it was no handout. You said a club can achieve succes with a business model and visionary, we've had that for 20+ years.
 
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