Then you did miss the point, well done.
I did, which is why i pointed out what you were saying was nothing to do with what im saying.
moving on...
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The Manchester United Thread
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I did, which is why i pointed out what you were saying was nothing to do with what im saying.
moving on...
delete.. nvm..
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/10/01/manchester-united-2-3-tottenham
Manchester United 2-3 Tottenham: Spurs attack directly then defend deep
Manchester United 2-3 Tottenham: Spurs attack directly then defend deep | Zonal Marking
October 1, 2012
The starting line-ups
An excellent first half performance put Tottenham in control, and they hung on with a fine defensive performance in the second half.
Sir Alex Ferguson brought Paul Scholes back into the starting line-up and used Ryan Giggs on the left. Wayne Rooney was on the bench.
Andre Villas-Boas chose Clint Dempsey ahead of Gylfi Sigurdsson, and played Jan Vertonghen at left-back with Steven Caulker coming into the centre of the pitch. Brad Fridel continued in goal.
The halves were completely different – Tottenham were excellent going forward before half-time, before gradually sitting deeper and deeper in the second half.
Formations
The sides lined up roughly as expected, with Clint Dempsey playing a hybrid role, half-midfielder, half-forward. His energy helped Tottenham to press in the first few minutes, and United took a long time to get into a good passing rhythm. Jermain Defoe, Dempsey and Moussa Dembele all worked very hard in the centre of the pitch, while Sandro was more reserved and stayed goalside of Shinji Kagawa.
United seemed particularly keen to get the ball out to Nani on the right, in order for the Portuguese winger to run at Vertonghen, who was playing out of position (although in a role he’s played before) at left-back. It was Vertonghen who got the early breakthrough, however, with a direct run at the heart of the Manchester United defence, and this sums up what Spurs did well throughout the first half – they dribbled directly towards goal and took United by surprise.
Defoe + movement
The second goal was not dissimilar, with Bale picking up the ball on the left before sprinting past Rio Ferdinand to score a fine goal. For both goals, the movement of Jermain Defoe played a significant part, despite him not touching the ball. For the first he’d drawn Ferdinand into the right-back position, leaving a gap in the centre of defence. For the second, he made a superb run across the pitch to drag Jonny Evans behind Ferdinand, making Bale’s path to goal much easier.
Tottenham’s directness on the ball was highly impressive, epitomised by Dembele’s second excellent performance at Old Trafford in just over a month, and replacing a passer like Luka Modric with a dribbler like Dembele has changed the way Tottenham play in that zone. For the second week running, United’s lack of a ball-winner was an obvious weakness.
Static United
United were very poor in the opening half, unable to provide reliable service to their forwards. This was partly because of Tottenham pressing limiting Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes’ passing influence, but also because United’s movement was terrible. The game bypassed Giggs on the left, while Nani remained a long way from Robin van Persie. Kagawa doesn’t yet seem comfortable in the side, and a couple of times van Persie moved out to the left, only to look up and find no-one in the box to cross to.
United are still yet to pass to Kagawa in the manner he likes – he wants more incisive balls played beyond opponents for him to run into, rather than short passes into feet when tightly marked. There was only one pass into him that fitted the bill – Carrick’s slide ball between two Tottenham players (just before Bale’s goal), met with a smart turn from Kagawa to get away from his opponents. United haven’t had a player like Kagawa for a long time (arguably, never before in Ferguson’s tenure) and they’re unaccustomed to basing their play around a direct number ten.
United changes
Ferguson rightly removed Giggs at half-time, pushing Kagawa left and bringing on Wayne Rooney in the hole. Immediately there was so much more movement from the home side, with Kagawa drifting in, Nani more central and Rooney supporting van Persie closely. The two wide players scored in the first ten minutes of the second half, which would have been unthinkable before half-time – Giggs and Nani were simply playing too far from goal.
In a frantic three-minute spell, Tottenham also scored. Again, excellent work by Defoe on the left created the chance, dragging Ferdinand out of position – this time with his work on the ball.
Tottenham drop deep
So, 3-2 to Tottenham – and now, their approach changed. They were exhausted from their early pressing, and now had to sit deep and allow United the run of the midfield. Villas-Boas tried a few different strategies to try and press Scholes and Carrick, but generally discovered that when one was closed down, the other took control and provided good balsl into the final third.
Villas-Boas removed Dempsey and brought on Sigurdsson, but then strangely pushed Dembele higher onto Scholes. It would have been better to use the fresh legs of Sigurdsson as the presser, with Dembele sitting deeper – but the experiment didn’t last long before Dembele was replaced by Tom Huddlestone and all three midfielders sat much deeper.
United pressure
Tottenham simply couldn’t keep the ball – Defoe’s performance was excellent in terms of movement, but he clearly wasn’t the man to hold the ball up. United completed ten times as many passes as Tottenham in the second half, a staggering statistic.
Ferguson replaced Kagawa with Welbeck, but he had little impact on the game. The other striking option, Javier Hernandez, wasn’t particularly tempting as Spurs were sitting so deep. The Mexican was only introduced in stoppage time, shortly after Villas-Boas had replaced Defoe with Michael Dawson and gone 5-5-0 – which meant Ferguson could sacrifice Ferdinand and chuck another striker on. A couple of half-chances aside, United’s pressure didn’t result in the expected number of chances in the final half hour, as Spurs’ back four stayed narrow and cleared most balls played into the box.
Conclusion
Lots to talk about here: Spurs’ pressing, their directness and their attempts to nullify Carrick and Scholes before sitting back late on. On the other hand, you can pinpoint United’s poor movement, their lack of a ball-winner and Kagawa’s struggles as reasons for the result.
The key was Spurs’ dribbling ability from deep positions, combined with Defoe’s fantastic movement to drag opponents out of position. He created the space, while Vertonghen, Bale, Lennon, Dembele and Dempsey charged into it – the movement was very Zenit St Petersburg. Lone strikers don’t need to be big and strong to be effective – although those qualities would have helped when Spurs were too tired to get midfield runners up the pitch.
Manchester United 2-3 Tottenham: Spurs attack directly then defend deep
Manchester United 2-3 Tottenham: Spurs attack directly then defend deep | Zonal Marking
October 1, 2012
The starting line-ups
Sir Alex Ferguson brought Paul Scholes back into the starting line-up and used Ryan Giggs on the left. Wayne Rooney was on the bench.
Andre Villas-Boas chose Clint Dempsey ahead of Gylfi Sigurdsson, and played Jan Vertonghen at left-back with Steven Caulker coming into the centre of the pitch. Brad Fridel continued in goal.
The halves were completely different – Tottenham were excellent going forward before half-time, before gradually sitting deeper and deeper in the second half.
Formations
The sides lined up roughly as expected, with Clint Dempsey playing a hybrid role, half-midfielder, half-forward. His energy helped Tottenham to press in the first few minutes, and United took a long time to get into a good passing rhythm. Jermain Defoe, Dempsey and Moussa Dembele all worked very hard in the centre of the pitch, while Sandro was more reserved and stayed goalside of Shinji Kagawa.
United seemed particularly keen to get the ball out to Nani on the right, in order for the Portuguese winger to run at Vertonghen, who was playing out of position (although in a role he’s played before) at left-back. It was Vertonghen who got the early breakthrough, however, with a direct run at the heart of the Manchester United defence, and this sums up what Spurs did well throughout the first half – they dribbled directly towards goal and took United by surprise.
Defoe + movement
The second goal was not dissimilar, with Bale picking up the ball on the left before sprinting past Rio Ferdinand to score a fine goal. For both goals, the movement of Jermain Defoe played a significant part, despite him not touching the ball. For the first he’d drawn Ferdinand into the right-back position, leaving a gap in the centre of defence. For the second, he made a superb run across the pitch to drag Jonny Evans behind Ferdinand, making Bale’s path to goal much easier.
Tottenham’s directness on the ball was highly impressive, epitomised by Dembele’s second excellent performance at Old Trafford in just over a month, and replacing a passer like Luka Modric with a dribbler like Dembele has changed the way Tottenham play in that zone. For the second week running, United’s lack of a ball-winner was an obvious weakness.
Static United
United were very poor in the opening half, unable to provide reliable service to their forwards. This was partly because of Tottenham pressing limiting Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes’ passing influence, but also because United’s movement was terrible. The game bypassed Giggs on the left, while Nani remained a long way from Robin van Persie. Kagawa doesn’t yet seem comfortable in the side, and a couple of times van Persie moved out to the left, only to look up and find no-one in the box to cross to.
United are still yet to pass to Kagawa in the manner he likes – he wants more incisive balls played beyond opponents for him to run into, rather than short passes into feet when tightly marked. There was only one pass into him that fitted the bill – Carrick’s slide ball between two Tottenham players (just before Bale’s goal), met with a smart turn from Kagawa to get away from his opponents. United haven’t had a player like Kagawa for a long time (arguably, never before in Ferguson’s tenure) and they’re unaccustomed to basing their play around a direct number ten.
United changes
Ferguson rightly removed Giggs at half-time, pushing Kagawa left and bringing on Wayne Rooney in the hole. Immediately there was so much more movement from the home side, with Kagawa drifting in, Nani more central and Rooney supporting van Persie closely. The two wide players scored in the first ten minutes of the second half, which would have been unthinkable before half-time – Giggs and Nani were simply playing too far from goal.
In a frantic three-minute spell, Tottenham also scored. Again, excellent work by Defoe on the left created the chance, dragging Ferdinand out of position – this time with his work on the ball.
Tottenham drop deep
So, 3-2 to Tottenham – and now, their approach changed. They were exhausted from their early pressing, and now had to sit deep and allow United the run of the midfield. Villas-Boas tried a few different strategies to try and press Scholes and Carrick, but generally discovered that when one was closed down, the other took control and provided good balsl into the final third.
Villas-Boas removed Dempsey and brought on Sigurdsson, but then strangely pushed Dembele higher onto Scholes. It would have been better to use the fresh legs of Sigurdsson as the presser, with Dembele sitting deeper – but the experiment didn’t last long before Dembele was replaced by Tom Huddlestone and all three midfielders sat much deeper.
United pressure
Tottenham simply couldn’t keep the ball – Defoe’s performance was excellent in terms of movement, but he clearly wasn’t the man to hold the ball up. United completed ten times as many passes as Tottenham in the second half, a staggering statistic.
Conclusion
Lots to talk about here: Spurs’ pressing, their directness and their attempts to nullify Carrick and Scholes before sitting back late on. On the other hand, you can pinpoint United’s poor movement, their lack of a ball-winner and Kagawa’s struggles as reasons for the result.
The key was Spurs’ dribbling ability from deep positions, combined with Defoe’s fantastic movement to drag opponents out of position. He created the space, while Vertonghen, Bale, Lennon, Dembele and Dempsey charged into it – the movement was very Zenit St Petersburg. Lone strikers don’t need to be big and strong to be effective – although those qualities would have helped when Spurs were too tired to get midfield runners up the pitch.
Why Gary Neville is out on his own when it comes to TV punditry
England's assistant coach saved Roy Hodgson a job later this week when he marked Rio Ferdinand's card for him on Monday
England's assistant coach Gary Neville seems to have taken to TV punditry like few former players before him. Photograph: Lee Smith/Action Images
Presumably now those people who threatened to cancel their subscriptions when Gary Neville was appointed as Sky Sports's main pundit have come to realise, whether they like to admit it or not, that if they can just detach themselves from the endless slog of club allegiances for a few moments and listen, without prejudice, there is a good chance they might actually learn something.
His analysis of Arsenal's defending, for example, for Chelsea's winning goal on Saturday, and the clear evidence that Arsène Wenger still lacks an authority figure in the heart of his defence, all of which goes against the swell of opinion after Arsenal began the season with three clean sheets and a heap of praise for Steve Bould, their former centre-back now operating as assistant manager.
Neville explained his points calmly and succinctly, highlighted the way Arsenal's defenders had been four or five yards inside their own penalty area as they prepared to face a free-kick, why it was inviting trouble and the fact there was nobody getting everyone organised in the way, as he then showed, John Terry could later be seen doing for Chelsea.
He talked about it being a question of leadership, of someone needing to take the initiative, get on the edge of the area, spread their arms and make it clear that nobody was going beyond that point. He remembered what it used to be like during the days of Tony Adams and, by the end of it, you just hoped for Arsenal's sake that their players were watching it, too.
But it was Neville's response when it came to the Rio Ferdinand question that really stood out during Sky's Monday Night Football, given this was probably the first time that the lines between his television work and his position as Roy Hodgson's assistant with the England team blurred into one.
Ed Chamberlin, the host, wanted to know if Ferdinand had an international future now that Terry was no longer on the scene. Add in the fact that Neville spent nine years as a colleague of Ferdinand's atManchester United and knows very well how much his former team-mate cherished playing for England and it was a difficult question, to put it mildly.
What followed felt like the unofficial confirmation Ferdinand will continue to be left out when Hodgson names his squad on Thursday for England's next two World Cup qualifiers, against San Marino and Poland.
"He is a class defender, but [at] the World Cup, he'll be 35," Neville said. "Roy Hodgson has said importantly — and it's a mistake many managers have made with England — he's not going to take 34-year-olds, 35-year-olds who are seasoned internationals, who have 70-odd, 80 caps, to sit in the stand. I've seen that be divisive in previous squads and it will be divisive in this squad. And it won't happen, and it's the correct decision.
"The door is not closed on Rio Ferdinand, but he won't be sat in the stand. If he gets selected by Roy Hodgson, he'll be the first name on the team-sheet. But this is not a player who's been playing for England for the last 20 months consistently. This is not just a Roy Hodgson thing.
"People are getting fixated with this. This happened when Paul Gascoigne was coming to the end of his England career. This happened when David Beckham was coming to the end of his England career. Roy Hodgson has never said that Rio Ferdinand will not play for England. Rio Ferdinand has never said that he's not going to play for England.
"But how many games do you think Rio Ferdinand played for Fabio Capello in the last 18 months? Three. How many games do you think he played competitively? His last competitive game under Fabio Capello was 12 months before Roy Hodgson took charge. He played only three of Fabio Capello's last 18 games. He's not been playing for England for the last two years. Roy Hodgson is looking towards 2014."
Neville had made his point eloquently and diplomatically and, in doing so, he has probably helped Hodgson to avoid a number of awkward questions on Thursday, when the manager holds his first press conference since Terry's international retirement.
Ferdinand, after all, believes he is being kept out for political reasons because of the broken state of his relationship with Terry, acquitted in court of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand, Rio's younger brother, but found guilty by an FA independent commission and suspended for four matches, pending a possible appeal.
That suspension leaves a space for another centre-half and, as I wrote on Sunday, it is certainly a strange set of circumstances that someone can be good enough to play for Manchester United, the most successful team in the country, but find himself, almost certainly, behind talented yet raw players such as Martin Kelly and Steven Caulker.
What a fuss that caused. Ferdinand had just been part of a United defence badly exposed by Tottenham in a 3-2 defeat at Old Trafford. He had been poor, of that there is no question, but the point was that it was not fair judging him on one bad performance when Sir Alex Ferguson, who knows a thing or two whether you like him or not, still trusts him to be part of his defence — ahead of, for example, Phil Jones and Chris Smalling, both of whom are firmly in Hodgson's plans.
Neville certainly had a very different interpretation about what actually happened on Saturday to the popular one.
"People will say Rio Ferdinand's lost the pace, a yard of pace," he said. "Maybe he has. But I think he'd have struggled in that position five or six years ago, I really do.
"He's the one who's going to take the hit, because he's that's involved. He's the one who's chasing [Jan] Vertonghen. He's the one chasing [Gareth] Bale. He's the one who's taken the hit. But there are four or five mistakes on each of those goals.
"Rio Ferdinand is a great centre-back. He's a quick centre back. Still quick. Still quicker than Steve Bruce. He's still quicker than Tony Adams. He's still quicker than John Terry … but how many times do you see those players isolated one on one?"
This is when Neville turned to the performances of Rafael Da Silva and Patrice Evra, barely able to conceal his displeasure at the way the two full-backs had exposed United's centre-halves. "You [full-backs] can go forward, but you've got to get back in quickly. You've got to get back in quickly. You've got to understand the pace of the players you're playing against. [Aaron] Lennon and Bale will run past most players, at any point in their prime. You've got to tuck in alongside. Attach the two full-backs to your centre-backs.
"Rio's taken a lot of stick because he was involved in all three goals [against Tottenham], to the visible eye," Neville said. "Honestly, to play centre-back on Saturday would have been tough. They didn't play well, Rio and Jonny [Evans]. There were times they were too deep. The movement from Tottenham was fantastic, they were up against quick players …but your back four has got to get in place. That was the problem on Saturday with the three goals — the gaps were huge."
There are still a few questions unanswered. The age thing is curious when Hodgson said, only three weeks ago, that he was perfectly relaxed about taking 30-somethings to the World Cup. "I will not write anyone off on grounds of age." Frank Lampard, for example, is five months older than Ferdinand, playing in a position that requires far more energy and distance covered per match. Steven Gerrard will be 34 before the next World Cup and, like Ferdinand, has suffered from recurrent injury issues in the past.
Ferdinand tends to be written off, first and foremost, as injury-prone but Neville did not cite that once, and with good reason. The fact is only one other player, Wayne Rooney, made more starts for United in the league last season. Apart from the first week of the season, Ferdinand had not missed a league match through injury since January.
The difference, perhaps, is that Hodgson sees Gerrard and Lampard as starters in 2014 whereas Ferdinand would not be and, after that, it comes down to a question of whether it would be, to use Neville's word, "divisive" to have a player of his achievement among the substitutes.
The official reason appears to be that Hodgson thinks it would be wrong to include Ferdinand unless he were going to start the matches. Whether there is an unofficial reason, Ferdinand will probably never find out. One certainty, however, is that it is a shame there are not more pundits around with Neville's ability to make relevant points, inform and educate – with or without his England hat on.
England's assistant coach saved Roy Hodgson a job later this week when he marked Rio Ferdinand's card for him on Monday
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Presumably now those people who threatened to cancel their subscriptions when Gary Neville was appointed as Sky Sports's main pundit have come to realise, whether they like to admit it or not, that if they can just detach themselves from the endless slog of club allegiances for a few moments and listen, without prejudice, there is a good chance they might actually learn something.
His analysis of Arsenal's defending, for example, for Chelsea's winning goal on Saturday, and the clear evidence that Arsène Wenger still lacks an authority figure in the heart of his defence, all of which goes against the swell of opinion after Arsenal began the season with three clean sheets and a heap of praise for Steve Bould, their former centre-back now operating as assistant manager.
Neville explained his points calmly and succinctly, highlighted the way Arsenal's defenders had been four or five yards inside their own penalty area as they prepared to face a free-kick, why it was inviting trouble and the fact there was nobody getting everyone organised in the way, as he then showed, John Terry could later be seen doing for Chelsea.
He talked about it being a question of leadership, of someone needing to take the initiative, get on the edge of the area, spread their arms and make it clear that nobody was going beyond that point. He remembered what it used to be like during the days of Tony Adams and, by the end of it, you just hoped for Arsenal's sake that their players were watching it, too.
But it was Neville's response when it came to the Rio Ferdinand question that really stood out during Sky's Monday Night Football, given this was probably the first time that the lines between his television work and his position as Roy Hodgson's assistant with the England team blurred into one.
Ed Chamberlin, the host, wanted to know if Ferdinand had an international future now that Terry was no longer on the scene. Add in the fact that Neville spent nine years as a colleague of Ferdinand's atManchester United and knows very well how much his former team-mate cherished playing for England and it was a difficult question, to put it mildly.
What followed felt like the unofficial confirmation Ferdinand will continue to be left out when Hodgson names his squad on Thursday for England's next two World Cup qualifiers, against San Marino and Poland.
"He is a class defender, but [at] the World Cup, he'll be 35," Neville said. "Roy Hodgson has said importantly — and it's a mistake many managers have made with England — he's not going to take 34-year-olds, 35-year-olds who are seasoned internationals, who have 70-odd, 80 caps, to sit in the stand. I've seen that be divisive in previous squads and it will be divisive in this squad. And it won't happen, and it's the correct decision.
"The door is not closed on Rio Ferdinand, but he won't be sat in the stand. If he gets selected by Roy Hodgson, he'll be the first name on the team-sheet. But this is not a player who's been playing for England for the last 20 months consistently. This is not just a Roy Hodgson thing.
"People are getting fixated with this. This happened when Paul Gascoigne was coming to the end of his England career. This happened when David Beckham was coming to the end of his England career. Roy Hodgson has never said that Rio Ferdinand will not play for England. Rio Ferdinand has never said that he's not going to play for England.
"But how many games do you think Rio Ferdinand played for Fabio Capello in the last 18 months? Three. How many games do you think he played competitively? His last competitive game under Fabio Capello was 12 months before Roy Hodgson took charge. He played only three of Fabio Capello's last 18 games. He's not been playing for England for the last two years. Roy Hodgson is looking towards 2014."
Neville had made his point eloquently and diplomatically and, in doing so, he has probably helped Hodgson to avoid a number of awkward questions on Thursday, when the manager holds his first press conference since Terry's international retirement.
Ferdinand, after all, believes he is being kept out for political reasons because of the broken state of his relationship with Terry, acquitted in court of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand, Rio's younger brother, but found guilty by an FA independent commission and suspended for four matches, pending a possible appeal.
That suspension leaves a space for another centre-half and, as I wrote on Sunday, it is certainly a strange set of circumstances that someone can be good enough to play for Manchester United, the most successful team in the country, but find himself, almost certainly, behind talented yet raw players such as Martin Kelly and Steven Caulker.
What a fuss that caused. Ferdinand had just been part of a United defence badly exposed by Tottenham in a 3-2 defeat at Old Trafford. He had been poor, of that there is no question, but the point was that it was not fair judging him on one bad performance when Sir Alex Ferguson, who knows a thing or two whether you like him or not, still trusts him to be part of his defence — ahead of, for example, Phil Jones and Chris Smalling, both of whom are firmly in Hodgson's plans.
Neville certainly had a very different interpretation about what actually happened on Saturday to the popular one.
"People will say Rio Ferdinand's lost the pace, a yard of pace," he said. "Maybe he has. But I think he'd have struggled in that position five or six years ago, I really do.
"He's the one who's going to take the hit, because he's that's involved. He's the one who's chasing [Jan] Vertonghen. He's the one chasing [Gareth] Bale. He's the one who's taken the hit. But there are four or five mistakes on each of those goals.
"Rio Ferdinand is a great centre-back. He's a quick centre back. Still quick. Still quicker than Steve Bruce. He's still quicker than Tony Adams. He's still quicker than John Terry … but how many times do you see those players isolated one on one?"
This is when Neville turned to the performances of Rafael Da Silva and Patrice Evra, barely able to conceal his displeasure at the way the two full-backs had exposed United's centre-halves. "You [full-backs] can go forward, but you've got to get back in quickly. You've got to get back in quickly. You've got to understand the pace of the players you're playing against. [Aaron] Lennon and Bale will run past most players, at any point in their prime. You've got to tuck in alongside. Attach the two full-backs to your centre-backs.
"Rio's taken a lot of stick because he was involved in all three goals [against Tottenham], to the visible eye," Neville said. "Honestly, to play centre-back on Saturday would have been tough. They didn't play well, Rio and Jonny [Evans]. There were times they were too deep. The movement from Tottenham was fantastic, they were up against quick players …but your back four has got to get in place. That was the problem on Saturday with the three goals — the gaps were huge."
There are still a few questions unanswered. The age thing is curious when Hodgson said, only three weeks ago, that he was perfectly relaxed about taking 30-somethings to the World Cup. "I will not write anyone off on grounds of age." Frank Lampard, for example, is five months older than Ferdinand, playing in a position that requires far more energy and distance covered per match. Steven Gerrard will be 34 before the next World Cup and, like Ferdinand, has suffered from recurrent injury issues in the past.
Ferdinand tends to be written off, first and foremost, as injury-prone but Neville did not cite that once, and with good reason. The fact is only one other player, Wayne Rooney, made more starts for United in the league last season. Apart from the first week of the season, Ferdinand had not missed a league match through injury since January.
The difference, perhaps, is that Hodgson sees Gerrard and Lampard as starters in 2014 whereas Ferdinand would not be and, after that, it comes down to a question of whether it would be, to use Neville's word, "divisive" to have a player of his achievement among the substitutes.
The official reason appears to be that Hodgson thinks it would be wrong to include Ferdinand unless he were going to start the matches. Whether there is an unofficial reason, Ferdinand will probably never find out. One certainty, however, is that it is a shame there are not more pundits around with Neville's ability to make relevant points, inform and educate – with or without his England hat on.
Cute. You assume because you have an opinion more than one person disagrees with, it's somehow you against the world, against some 'Big Bad' with all of his 'lap dogs'.
The crux of this argument is thus: it is commonly accepted that a club should buy to strengthen the positions it is weakest. Makes sense, no? Chelsea did it in adding versatile, creative wingers. My club Villa did it, by adding, in order of both purchasing and descending importance (which is telling) a deep-lying midfielder who can both break up play and dictate the pace of the game from deep, a new right-back, a new centre-back, a new left-back, and a couple of new strikers.
United, to an extent, also did it, in adding Kagawa and Buttner in order to provide midfield creativity and a challenger for the left-back spot respectively. What Ferguson didn't pick up, however, was the most critical thing on the list, a destroyer who can break up play and recycle it from deep. Dembele just is not that. Buying him would not only require United to unbalance their whole midfield (as mentioned many times before) but also go against the whole idea of buying to fit. United already have Kagawa to add a creative dimension to midfield, and adding a dribbler like Dembele would just mean that Michael Carrick, good as he is, would be required to patrol the entirety of the defence by himself. It just wouldn't work.
To me, Dembele's excellence in the match against United the other day wasn't so much an indication of his (undoubted) quality, rather a showcase of exactly what United are both good at and missing in deep midfield. There was a period of time when Carrick and Scholes were running the show, unable to be pressed consistently due to their sustained passing excellence. Unfortunately, that period came when United were 3-2 down, having been ripped apart on the counter by Spurs' direct play. With no destroyer to cover gaps, Defoe was able to craft huge holes in the United defence and let them be exploited by intelligent runners.
United will face many more better sides than Spurs in Europe this season if they get far enough. They cannot rely on their two passers to try and break up play between them against top-class opposition. Against Wigan, it will work. Against the likes of Bayern, Chelsea and Madrid, it will not.
Bayern, in fact, are an interesting little case. They're similar to United: an excellent array of wide forwards, an intelligent hole player in Toni Kroos, and a couple of passers to choose from in deep midfield. Against small teams, they're comfortable playing Kroos and Bastian Schweinsteiger in deep midfield with the less defensively-aware Thomas Muller ahead of them, content in the knowledge the two of them can dictate play without a huge threat through the middle from the opposition. In Europe, and against big teams, the lineup changes; Luiz Gustavo comes into the team, Muller drops onto the right or onto the bench, and Kroos plays ahead of Gustavo and Schweinsteiger.
Gustavo's introduction is critical because it allows Kroos and Schweinsteiger to go on playing. He breaks up play, recycles possession, and anchors the midfield. Instead of the creative but defensively flimsy duo of Schweinsteiger and Kroos, Heyneckes throws Gustavo in and adds steel to his entire midfield. Like any good defensive midfielder, Gustavo doesn't just win the ball, he's good at reading the game, getting to second balls, and positioning himself in relation to his teammates. As such, his influence isn't singular, but rather global to the team.
United have a similar set of players, but are missing the critical component of a destroyer. Without a specialist of Gustavo's calibre, opponents have a huge and obvious flaw to point their offences towards, and it will continue as long as United have no destroyer. Dembele cannot fix that, no matter how many tidy dribbles he produces and defences he drags across the pitch.
Also it's about time we dump playing 2 in the middle. Every game we get outnumbered which inturn results in out performed. I know Kagawa is counted as AM and as a part of midfield 3, but he was never the player to make up numbers in the midfield, he plays way too close to the striker (that's his best position) so this almost looks like the same set up as 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.
To get best out Anderson, Cleverley, Carrick they should play as part of midfield 3 imo. 4-3-3 with Kagawa, RVP, Rooney interchanging positions and Nani can play in any position too if needed.
I'm sorry, I never said that. I know it's a forum and there will be many who disagrees with opinions.
And tbf more than one disagrees with "United don't need Dembele" thing, may not be in this forum, but in other forums.
Re your rest of the post, excuse me. I didn't even read a single line of it as I have no interest in continuing the same points again and again, except the last para. I agree with the last part that we need destroyer, but when we didn't sign at least we had the chance to improve our midfield which we didnt.
Lets agree to disagree and move on.
Phew.. I said I can read (didn't say will read every post).. But didn't bother reading the big post which I said it myself. That's the reason I didn't address any part of it. Thanks for proving few of my points though. Well done.
Hypocrisy? Yeah..
alm:Phew.. I said I can read (didn't say will read every post).. But didn't bother reading the big post which I said it myself. That's the reason I didn't address any part of it. Thanks for proving few of my points though. Well done.
Hypocrisy? Yeah..
That is hypocrisy. Having a go at someone for his perceived non-reading of your post, and then following it up by... not reading someone's post. There's no two ways about it. To argue otherwise would be as stupid as arguing that Mousa Dembele should be a top priority for a team that needs a defensive-minded midfielder.
Ok.
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I agree.
I also agree with this.
juventus1980
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Thank you for posting the Zonal Marking analysis Mike, always provides so much insight into how a game plays out.
United should have signed Vidal a couple of years ago he the driving force behind our brilliant midfield. Saying that... very glad they didn't.
United should have signed Vidal a couple of years ago he the driving force behind our brilliant midfield. Saying that... very glad they didn't.
I am still amazed today as to why we didnt bother, he is utterly brilliant.
markodragojevic
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I like United's starting line up!
United line up. De Gea. Rafael. Ferdinand. Evans. Evra. Anderson. Fletcher. Cleverley. Hernandez Rooney. Van Persie. Subs. Lindegaard. Wootton. Welbeck. Nani. Buttner. Kagawa. Powell
United line up. De Gea. Rafael. Ferdinand. Evans. Evra. Anderson. Fletcher. Cleverley. Hernandez Rooney. Van Persie. Subs. Lindegaard. Wootton. Welbeck. Nani. Buttner. Kagawa. Powell
definately a strong lineup. I smell goals acoming
markodragojevic
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Hahaha, **** happens, mate! lololol