The Reapers

[kostasfender]

I'm sorry but I can't understand... Which occasion fits each of these tactics? Can you explain please?

 

[Lisandroo]

Question

What training do you use in preseason and season? The instructions that you give, it is for the three tracts the same and the training also


From already thank you very much

 

[nasturas]

Thanks for the info. I know that roaming from position tells the players to come closer tot the player that has the ball in order tot support him.

 

[Vadermage]

What training do you use in preseason and season? The instructions that you give, it is for the three tracts the same and the training also


From already thank you very much

pre season I have 2 weeks of fitness, slider all the way to the left and match prep, after 2 weeks of fitness switch to team cohesion till season start, then use balanced, set slier in middle and use attacking movement when tactic is fluid

the instructions on training for players you mean?

I'm sorry but I can't understand... Which occasion fits each of these tactics? Can you explain please?

the one with wider paly higher tempo etc that one is for when you are playing vs a team that camps in their half in their box, the other 2 are for when you are playing vs normal sides

 

[apalobod]

The instruction 'roam form position' tells the player to look for a better position to receive the ball. And this will help the player with the ball. But if a team has many players with a low Off the Ball attribute then this instruction can be harmful.

 

[Vadermage]

The instruction 'roam form position' tells the player to look for a better position to receive the ball. And this will help the player with the ball. But if a team has many players with a low Off the Ball attribute then this instruction can be harmful.

That is true, but if mine player is wide and I want him wide to stretch the opposition by luring FB to him if he comes closer then he will not perform the task I asked him to do, so there is a down side to it...

 

[Augustin1979]

Started save with Napoli, think they have perfect squad for this tactic, every position is covered with 2 or more player ( maybe can bring one more to midfield ).

View attachment 1130458

I know its preseason against very low teams but still, im very very impressed.

Strikers are on mad run, scoring for fun. Mertens 26 in 11 and Milik 11 in 6 ( bot wings and central mids scored 10+ and even more assists ).

EDIT: Corner taker???

What tactic and training do you use?

 

[Vadermage]

Started save with Napoli, think they have perfect squad for this tactic, every position is covered with 2 or more player ( maybe can bring one more to midfield ).

View attachment 1130458

I know its preseason against very low teams but still, im very very impressed.

Strikers are on mad run, scoring for fun. Mertens 26 in 11 and Milik 11 in 6 ( bot wings and central mids scored 10+ and even more assists ).

EDIT: Corner taker???

If you go to corner setup you can see there is a player coming short for pass option, in mine team AML cones close for both and AMR takes both, since mine best corner taker is Ozil, put your best taker to take them and use wingers for shot option, that's it, if your best taker is a midfielder or striker use a winger instead, they are usually the players with least physical presence so you can afford to have those 2 out of the box.....

 

[FernandoGago]

I train all of mine midfield players in RPM role, the reason?
RPM is most complete role in midfield in mine opinion and I need players to be able to perform various tasks in mid, so that role suits them all . If I have a player who is good in all stats for RPM role and lacks for example: Composure, first touch, Marking, Tackling, Poitioning or Stamina then I use individual training on that player for a specific attribute, as for wide players I train the AMR in AP and AML in IF, Striker always on Complete forward and individual focus if he lacks passing, composure, first touch atm mine dybala is on composure training for example. WBs and FBs all on CWB training and CB in Ball playing defender roles Keeper in SK training, reason is most of these positions actually need attributes taht above mentioned roles use, but I don't play those roles since they won't do the job I need from them so I use roles that cover most of stats.
Players do need specific set of stats but for example bournemouth doesn't have the squad I would consider capable stats wise for this style of football, all of the positions are fine except wingers and maybe RB and LB, They have good first pick DR and DL but in case of injury its a gamble, Midfield is awesome, I like their players, and attack isn't half bad Callum Wilson looks awesome but I'm doubting wide players, can't see which player could play the AP role on the wing unless you go for winger one then they could do the trick but I wouldn't use roam from position on bournemouth since they lack in "mental" department in terms of making good decisions and positioning themselves available in a good way

Thanx for the in depth answer, it helped me a lot!
As for the tactic i just play your Veles tactic as it is, and its working wonders at the start of the premier league!
deep lying playmakers who isn't natural in dmc position i just train like dpl training i guess?
i play marc pugh and junior stanislas as the advanced playmakers in winger role, they do the job quite good!

 

[Vadermage]

Thanx for the in depth answer, it helped me a lot!
As for the tactic i just play your Veles tactic as it is, and its working wonders at the start of the premier league!
deep lying playmakers who isn't natural in dmc position i just train like dpl training i guess?
i play marc pugh and junior stanislas as the advanced playmakers in winger role, they do the job quite good!

I can recommend removing "stay wider" PI from IF(S) role since your AML probably isn't as good as Alexis(role is made to suit him a bit more) and when facing heavy hitters use WB(S) instead of WB(A) when you use WB(S) he will pick his runs and he won't act like a moron and just stampede forward whenever you get the ball....
In second part of the season teams will start camping on you, that's when you switch to Anubis, when you face for example Burnley side and they keep 8 man behind the ball at all times drop deeper, you might only need to use drop deeper shout and it could work considering your rep isn't as mine and they will tend to open themselves easier to you, by moving deeper you will perform sort of medium block, something that Arsenal does in real life, you let opponents come to your half and press them hard between your 20m box and half line, when you take the ball there its counter attack festival for your wide players, that usually works for me...

for me personally Man Utd is the hardest team I have ever faced in all of FM games (I play since FM 08) this years Man Utd has insanely fast team and on top of it they got real pressing mid and Mourinho tends to play 4 flat back line with all on def duties shielding himself from counter, a really tricky tactic to face, the best way to face it was the above mentioned things that I would recomend vs stronger sides, just remove stay wider and switch WB(A) to WB(S) and that's it....

I'll make an example of that game soon so you can see what I'm saying and I'll add .pkm so you can watch the whole game, well not just you, anyone who wants...

EDIT: your DMC needs to have def attributes, I use Coquelin a lot in this role when Maia isn't fit, if your DLP isn't the best passer like Coquelin in mine case. use pass it shorter PI, just make sure he can defend since if they give him a run around your CB's will step out and leave you vulnerable, I train all mine DMC players as Halfbacks since that gives them training in all they need for the art of defending and it gives them some passing training..
for example Jack cork could do wonders there and he could be affordable for "Cherries"

 

[Vadermage]

Now a lot of people are saying that in this years FM Manchester United are on of the strongest teams, I agree, they have good squad, pacey forwards(I actually love it when Ibrakadabra is playing, Rashford can wreck havoc), good dynamos in midfield, quality FB's(quality for what Mumu does) the only "weak" area is CB's, and behind CB's is a octopus with 16 hands who keeps line in check, his name is De Gea....
A lot of people face them in their saves and they feel like they hit a brick wall, when I posted tactic you people started asking which tactic you used home? which did you use away? the answer: the same one tactic.

How?
United plays a very distinct style of football, in mine save "The Special one" uses 4123DM WIDE, same formation as I use, now every formation can counter any formation provided you know what to do, this is an example how I tweaked mine system to counter Manchester and their threats....

Manchester play with 4 flat back line which uses FB CB CB FB all on Def duties, they have a 3 man mid like I do and they have 3 man upfront, now Manchester plays direct style of football, their front players and their 3 mid players press hard, not just hard, its ultimate pressing while their back four sits deep and doesn't press at all, the beauty of it is its almost impenetrable, well "almost"...

View attachment 80871​

What did I do to counter their style of play using min system?
I added Pass into space shout, switched WB(A) to WB(S) and removed "Stay Wider" PI from mine AML, why?

Pass into space combined with roam from position will ensure mine build up play avoids their high press, with players moving around a lot more it will ensure a pass option at all times, pass into space encourages mine players to use those created gaps and pass into them for a roaming player.

WB role switch: WB(A) is aggressive role, I'm perfectly fine with that, but, when playing vs this MU squad, with pacey front(well except Isco he is other sort of devil), this front 3 they lined up is perfectly said insane for direct play, Rashford and Martial are speedy demons, their mid and Isco are all capable to launch deep counter passes, so for defensive stability I used WB(S) role to ensure mine player won't maraud forward, he will instead pick when he comes, if he was on attack he would attack as soon as we get the ball, but what if mine transition fails? I'm left exposed down that flank and Martial is there, with his pace and Rashford joining him trough middle I'm done for, so role change is to prevent counter chance if mine transition fails.

Last thing I changed was removing Stay wider PI from Alexis, the reason?
Man Utd plays high press and forces mine midfield players to constantly look for a pass and to roam around so they make themselves open for that pass, if Alexis was wider he wouldn't be there to help the midfielders, and considering their back 4 doesn't close down he won't be able to stretch their defense as planed by tactic, so I made him come closer and help that midfield battle by stretching their high press and making ping tik tak options availible to mine players in mine middle.

The result?

View attachment 80870View attachment 80869​

We won... we pounded them so hard(and on top of it in the FINAL) that Mourinho didn't even do his trash talk after the game.

so how did the goals come?

View attachment 80868
This goal came from a deep pass to running Dybala, Pass into space at work

View attachment 80867
Another splitting pass for this goal

View attachment 80866
The zone unlock, notice the location of assist, its within zone 14, exactly what I wanted
​

What's the weird thing? these goals, only 1 of them counted as CCC mine other 3 CCC's were misses, 1 was Alexis penalty miss the others are:

View attachment 80865
again golden zone pass at work, notice the no 10(Ozil movement) he gets a pass from 14, lays it to no 11 who does one two pass with him and he finds himself in assist position which he uses to pass to Dybala(who misses)
View attachment 80864
In this situation we have Ozil(10) to Dybala (21) making a pass to Cook(8) who plays in Ozil again who picks dybalas run who finds Ramseys(11) and again unlocks the golden zone with that ball(Ramsey missed no one died)

View attachment 80863
Mine play for most of the game was exactly where I wanted it, in front of their 16m box
the zone in mine half shows how hard they press, it takes a lot of time to take the ball out sometimes when utd press that hard

​

So those are the changes I made for mine Utd game using same tactic I provided you guys here, never think of a tactic as of something complete, improvise, adapt, overcome.

what changes could I have implemented more? I could have gone for wider play, that way their players would need to close a lot more ground to cover mine passes and in combination of above used changes it could have had wrecking effect, on other side that would make mine players far apart and if one is marked and I have no pass option I'm done for, that's 50/50 risk on that instruction.

Other option was to employ low block and force them to do what I'm doing and do what they are ding, I could have went complete low block, stand off the opposition do a deep like and wait for counter opportunities(I hate the camp styles so a no go for me)

basically that's one of many examples howto counter specific top teams, this years AI amazes me, this tactic MUMU uses in UTD is insanely good

View attachment 80862​

They are 2nd on table they have only 21 goals conceded and 3 of those were by me(it was a different game, a home one which didn't need change since they went in more carefully) they are good and with more players coming in they will be mine main rivals trough mine save, I'm so thrilled to see AI making those tactics just to counter your style of play its insanely fun

Here is a .PKM(the match vs UTD) so you can see how it all played out for yourself
View attachment 80861

Next up is Tottenham match which was also a really good one, that's the next one I'll be covering.

PS: their goal, was a long shot(I hate conceding those)

​

 

[Vadermage]

As I mentioned above next match was Tottenham, the bad thing: alexis, Iwobi and Bellerin are injured, the good side: during summer window I bought Pulisic with idea to make him mine next Ozil if Vignato doesn't live up to his potential, well
Pulisic did alexises part to p.

The formation:

Tottenham went in with 442, now for mine style of play 442 could be worst formation to come against, mine wings are exposed all the time, I have 3 man defending and they have 2 attacking which can pull mine players around, but, the good side is they have 2 players in mid vs mine 3 and I want to exploit that, thats where I want to strike.

View attachment 80860
They are using similar setup for back 4 as Utd did but they defend differently, they use low block with big man small man up front, that's a real English way to play(I like it) they are staying true to EPL shearer, Owen, Henry etc those styles of players and I have nothing against it, but I have something to counter it.

​

This time I will only use 2 shouts, no pass into space since they are giving me freedom in front of 16m box, they want me to try that and cut me off, they want me to shoot from distance and they want mine strikers in no mans land, its difficult to come against these sort of formations without usage of wingers and wide man and by pure strength, instead I opt for Normal D-line and for play wider, again I'm removing stay wider from AML since I'm going to play wide.

What happens? In combination of mine previous shouts which are play out of D, WBIB and Roam(offensive wise shouts, tho all shouts can be considered offensive to some extent), basically using original tactic I use much wider and instead of slightly higher D line I go for normal, reasons?

Normal line will give me vertical stretching of their team, If I go too deep I won't be able to pressure their back line for mistake and they have BPD DLP and CM all capable of doing that long ball to Kane so he can lay it off to Laca who can speed towards goal, I want to avoid that so Normal line is way to go, I will still pressure them but I will ensure that I don't get killed by over the top balls.

Play much wider, now this will give me vertical stretch, since Spurs aren't pressing me, they are letting me control the game but they ae making a wall in front of their 16m box, that is a problem, to solve this problem I want to split apart their covering players, those are Dembele and Alli to do so Im drawing them out by using normal line and putting width between them by playing wider, if I split them apart mine 3 man mid with AP(S) and DLF can wreck them apart, so the reason of using play much wider is to split them, split them and use that space, so how did it go?

View attachment 80859
They had one chance and it was from? corner....

So how did mine goals come?
View attachment 80858
Golden zone unlock, by stretching them Dybala found space to run into and Pulisisc provided him with the ball
View attachment 80857
short throw in and Dybala does one -two with Ramsey(he passed with his heel) and finds himself in front of GK and scores.
View attachment 80856
Now mine side rarely scores from range, they rarely even shoot from there, but sometimes midfield players do those Gerrard shots like this one from Ramsey

and one unused CCC which Dybala made himself by closing down their CB​

Tottenham are humiliated at Wembley, again same as Man Utd game I amde slight changes just to adapt to certain opposition, the goal here is to show you fellas how to turn things into your advantage, the AI adapts, and I like it, but no AI can adapt like a human, humans made the game not the AI, if they switched do pressing(which they didn't) I would've added pass into space, if they want from 442 to 451, 4231, to any formation that isn't tight as that one when in defense I would've removed width shout , if they went with 2 DM's I would maybe drop deeper, but vs 2 DM's I think normal would do fine, its all about finding space and understanding where to make it to make that punch trough, and another important thing, stick to the system,

I made this system for mine team and that's how I want mine side to play, that is mine clubs DNA from now on, I won't change the system just for few opposing teams, that is (for me) same as accepting defeat of your idea, take for example Barca vs PSG 2 match in ECL they hammered them in first lg, but they stood by their principle and used same principle they always use to win, that's same thing I'm doing, adapting to situation.

I wanted to show you the tweaks in those matches because a lot of tactics work for half season and then in second half of the season they can't score as much as they did, they struggle etc, its not systems fault, it just needs a slight tweak to exploit what you want and to find the space for that goal.
One of the reasons mine team has only 5 goals conceded is that, I adapt to opposition, and look to exploit their weaknesses while enhancing mine weakness, that's all there is to it.

Match vs spurs:
View attachment 80854


BONUS: Dybala breaks Sinisa Mihajlovic's record by scoring 4 goals from a free kick in a single game, Miha's record was hat trick:
View attachment 80853

 

[Vadermage]

Next game I want to show you is vs United(again) at Emirates, the special thing about this game is I can secure league if I win it(which I did) but lets see how to adapt to their style of play when we are playing home.

Changes: They will press us hard, that;s how they play so mine option is again pass into space, the other 2 changes is I need to stretch them, we are playing 4123 DM wide vs their 4123 DM Wide so which formation lines up better?
This time I won't change WB(A) to WB(S) they won't possess that much of a threat and they will play less risky, only changes I want in mine squad is to stretch their play, so I'm removing Play wider from IF(S) AML and removing sit narrower from AP(S) AMR, those are the only changes I want, mine aim is to stretch their mid and make a hole in defense with occasional over the top ball if in favorable position, how did mine side do?

View attachment 80851
I almost got FMED 5 CCC's and 2 goals whilethey score a goal from only chance in game, almost is not good enough Mumu.
View attachment 80850
Long ball assist provided by pass into space instruction
View attachment 80849
complex attacking pattern played as it should be, drawing defense from left to right and finding space in middle,
exactly what I wanted to achieve, and on top of it its Golden zone goal
View attachment 80848
Golden zone at work again, but Dybala missed
View attachment 80847
A shuffle from left to right and finding space for a low cross from Iwobi to Dybala

​

So thats it the effect of little micromanagement on a system, again .PKM of the match here for anyone interested to observe the play:
View attachment 80846

8 games to go and:
View attachment 80845
​

 

[FernandoGago]

I can recommend removing "stay wider" PI from IF(S) role since your AML probably isn't as good as Alexis(role is made to suit him a bit more) and when facing heavy hitters use WB(S) instead of WB(A) when you use WB(S) he will pick his runs and he won't act like a moron and just stampede forward whenever you get the ball....
In second part of the season teams will start camping on you, that's when you switch to Anubis, when you face for example Burnley side and they keep 8 man behind the ball at all times drop deeper, you might only need to use drop deeper shout and it could work considering your rep isn't as mine and they will tend to open themselves easier to you, by moving deeper you will perform sort of medium block, something that Arsenal does in real life, you let opponents come to your half and press them hard between your 20m box and half line, when you take the ball there its counter attack festival for your wide players, that usually works for me...

for me personally Man Utd is the hardest team I have ever faced in all of FM games (I play since FM 08) this years Man Utd has insanely fast team and on top of it they got real pressing mid and Mourinho tends to play 4 flat back line with all on def duties shielding himself from counter, a really tricky tactic to face, the best way to face it was the above mentioned things that I would recomend vs stronger sides, just remove stay wider and switch WB(A) to WB(S) and that's it....

I'll make an example of that game soon so you can see what I'm saying and I'll add .pkm so you can watch the whole game, well not just you, anyone who wants...

EDIT: your DMC needs to have def attributes, I use Coquelin a lot in this role when Maia isn't fit, if your DLP isn't the best passer like Coquelin in mine case. use pass it shorter PI, just make sure he can defend since if they give him a run around your CB's will step out and leave you vulnerable, I train all mine DMC players as Halfbacks since that gives them training in all they need for the art of defending and it gives them some passing training..
for example Jack cork could do wonders there and he could be affordable for "Cherries"

Thanx so much for all the info, really helped me understand the mechanics better!
I will try the changes you have said and see if it works
What i can say is in the first games in premier league i defeated Manchester united and Arsenal with veles tactic as original, but i actually see now what you said about the wb:a, he played poor in those games, but jordan ibe played very good in those games with alexis sanchez settings in play! But i will try without it anyway
Almost forgot, in dmc i have Matias kranevitter, have him on loan from Atletico Madrid! He seems to be doing good

 

[Vadermage]

Thanx so much for all the info, really helped me understand the mechanics better!
I will try the changes you have said and see if it works
What i can say is in the first games in premier league i defeated Manchester united and Arsenal with veles tactic as original, but i actually see now what you said about the wb:a, he played poor in those games, but jordan ibe played very good in those games with alexis sanchez settings in play! But i will try without it anyway

I'm confident in Veles the way it is, I'm showing the tweaks behind it so I can show you(and others) what can be done to enhance the system, some tactics are natural enemies to 41221 (4123DM Wide) and as they are perfect mismatch for mine tactic I want to remove those weaknesses in mine tactic match to match basis so that I can dominate with same system that I want to use, the reason why I have 90:7 (scored to conceded goal ratio) is that I remove all the weak spots before each match by solidifying mine TI's and PI's...
I'm looking forward to see how cherries adventure goes since I wndered how would it work with lower rank teams...

 

[FernandoGago]

I'm confident in Veles the way it is, I'm showing the tweaks behind it so I can show you(and others) what can be done to enhance the system, some tactics are natural enemies to 41221 (4123DM Wide) and as they are perfect mismatch for mine tactic I want to remove those weaknesses in mine tactic match to match basis so that I can dominate with same system that I want to use, the reason why I have 90:7 (scored to conceded goal ratio) is that I remove all the weak spots before each match by solidifying mine TI's and PI's...
I'm looking forward to see how cherries adventure goes since I wndered how would it work with lower rank teams...

Yes and its great to see someone actually explaining how you think about tweaks and so on with your tactics!
And i have to say you were right about if:s tweak to remove stay wider, he played better in the first game without it!
Yes it will be interesting to see what happens, at the moment i winning every game, but i know that probably will change soon!

 

[Vadermage]

Yes and its great to see someone actually explaining how you think about tweaks and so on with your tactics!
And i have to say you were right about if:s tweak to remove stay wider, he played better in the first game without it!
Yes it will be interesting to see what happens, at the moment i winning every game, but i know that probably will change soon!

It's normal for it to get harder, remember when Leicester were overperforming, no one took them serious for first 20 matches, but then "the big 4" realized Leicesters threat, that's what will happen to your team after some time, you will perform awesome, and then AI starts taking you seriously, imo managing mid table club is perfect chance, that way you have teams that can underestimate you, I don't have that luxury with mine Arsenal side. but at some point AI takes you seriously and tries to adapt to your tactic, a lot of people complain about FM 17 being unpredictable, it's not unpredictable it's you who is playing in their hands, they will field out teams instructed to obstruct your style of play, especially to cut of your supply routes and choke you where you are strongest, that's why you should be aware how a tactic works and how to and when to use a certain shout or PI to avoid that AI response.

 

[FernandoGago]

It's normal for it to get harder, remember when Leicester were overperforming, no one took them serious for first 20 matches, but then "the big 4" realized Leicesters threat, that's what will happen to your team after some time, you will perform awesome, and then AI starts taking you seriously, imo managing mid table club is perfect chance, that way you have teams that can underestimate you, I don't have that luxury with mine Arsenal side. but at some point AI takes you seriously and tries to adapt to your tactic, a lot of people complain about FM 17 being unpredictable, it's not unpredictable it's you who is playing in their hands, they will field out teams instructed to obstruct your style of play, especially to cut of your supply routes and choke you where you are strongest, that's why you should be aware how a tactic works and how to and when to use a certain shout or PI to avoid that AI response.

I agree with you on all points, just look at Mourinho for example, he loves to obstruct other teams style of play irl!
What do you do when you want to defend a lead? for example when leading with 1-0 in the last 20 min and the AI push forward like crazy?

 

[Vadermage]

I agree with you on all points, just look at Mourinho for example, he loves to obstruct other teams style of play irl!
What do you do when you want to defend a lead? for example when leading with 1-0 in the last 20 min and the AI push forward like crazy?

Usually when I want to kill the game I hit retain possession, set def line to normal, set lower tempo and let them play, since they become aggressive usually I score when they start chasing since they open up a lot more, just be careful to watch which formation they switch to when they go for attack and by knowing weakness in that formation you can adapt easily, it ain't rocket science, pure simple logic

 

[FernandoGago]

Usually when I want to kill the game I hit retain possession, set def line to normal, set lower tempo and let them play, since they become aggressive usually I score when they start chasing since they open up a lot more, just be careful to watch which formation they switch to when they go for attack and by knowing weakness in that formation you can adapt easily, it ain't rocket science, pure simple logic

Thanks so much, i feel like i have the tools i need know and how to use them! And like you say, i have to learn the weaknesses on the other formations and try some tweaks when things don't go my way!