The Short Pass dilemma

[kismo]

To maximize posession i have these options:

1) The Pass Shorter team instruction with no corresponding PI;
2) No Pass Shorter TI but as an every single player's instruction.

Which one do you think leads to the better amount of passes?

Thank you

 

[Igneos79]

Second option. Although you probably wont play properly. In most cases, some players need to do direct and some short passess, having all of them on short passing PI will bring no good results.

 

[WJ]

To maximize posession i have these options:

1) The Pass Shorter team instruction with no corresponding PI;
2) No Pass Shorter TI but as an every single player's instruction.

Which one do you think leads to the better amount of passes?

Thank you

You're asking your players to do the same thing in both options.

 

[kismo]

You're asking your players to do the same thing in both options.

I do agree, but, to my mind, having personal Pass Shorter instruction, player won't pass anyhow else at all.
Thats how it works in theory, but in fact i really do not see any difference

 

[kismo]

Second option. Although you probably wont play properly. In most cases, some players need to do direct and some short passess, having all of them on short passing PI will bring no good results.

You're right, it finally leads to a lack of CCCs.
But i am trying hard to avoid direct passing at all. In my imagination, i should make players move constantly to create short passing options. Some kind of carousel motion with every player being able to find a free space. Moreover, it have to be somehow balanced XD

 

[Igneos79]

You're right, it finally leads to a lack of CCCs.
But i am trying hard to avoid direct passing at all. In my imagination, i should make players move constantly to create short passing options. Some kind of carousel motion with every player being able to find a free space. Moreover, it have to be somehow balanced XD

Yup, I had that idea myself. Perfect passing game. But it turned out you MUST sacrifice some possession in order to score, otherwise your setup leads to passing with no purpose but to pass around. If you will allow me to point you in the right direction, direction of goals, go for pressing and direct passing. Learn how to effectively press the moment you lose the ball, win it back in their third, and immediately try to score. That's what Klopp did at Dortmund, and Heynckes at Bayern to a degree. He won everything.

 

[WJ]

I do agree, but, to my mind, having personal Pass Shorter instruction, player won't pass anyhow else at all.
Thats how it works in theory, but in fact i really do not see any difference

Nope. Makes no difference. It's exactly the same thing. To avoid direct passing, you'd have to just make sure there are always passing options.

 

[kismo]

Yup, I had that idea myself. Perfect passing game. But it turned out you MUST sacrifice some possession in order to score, otherwise your setup leads to passing with no purpose but to pass around. If you will allow me to point you in the right direction, direction of goals, go for pressing and direct passing. Learn how to effectively press the moment you lose the ball, win it back in their third, and immediately try to score. That's what Klopp did at Dortmund, and Heynckes at Bayern to a degree. He won everything.

Mate, this game is not about a result for me
All you've said is reasonable but i just wanna enjoy watching the game. For example, Barca sometimes do over 900 passes per game - that is what i wanna achieve with my team.

 

[kismo]

Nope. Makes no difference. It's exactly the same thing. To avoid direct passing, you'd have to just make sure there are always passing options.

Well, insta passing options - that's what i am trying to achieve

 

[WJ]

Mate, this game is not about a result for me
All you've said is reasonable but i just wanna enjoy watching the game. For example, Barca sometimes do over 900 passes per game - that is what i wanna achieve with my team.

What mentality are you using?

 

[ImAddicted]

Mate, this game is not about a result for me
All you've said is reasonable but i just wanna enjoy watching the game. For example, Barca sometimes do over 900 passes per game - that is what i wanna achieve with my team.

Tbh, Barcelona are able to make that many passes simply because most of their players roam into space so they are available for team mates passes (for example messi roams from the right a lot).

 

[Igneos79]

Mate, this game is not about a result for me
All you've said is reasonable but i just wanna enjoy watching the game. For example, Barca sometimes do over 900 passes per game - that is what i wanna achieve with my team.

Barcelona doesn't do passess for passess sake. They do it for a purpose. At this moment, I can imagine short passing being used in a counter tactic, to have forwards keep the ball away from pressure, and invite opposition forward, so that defenders can do a direct pass and initiate a counter when requirements for that are met. You can set that up fairly easily, but that setup isn't fit for a top club. That's why Bayern trashed Barca 7-0 when Heynckes was in charge. And that's why Guardiola recently lost.

 

[Igneos79]

Tbh, Barcelona are able to make that many passes simply because most of their players roam into space so they are available for team mates passes (for example messi roams from the right a lot).

It would be difficult to send a ball to someone on a regular basis if you don't know where he is. It would make much more sense to me to have players stand off and stick to position, in a structured team shape, so everyone knows where everyone is at any given moment.

 

[JohnR55]

It would be difficult to send a ball to someone on a regular basis if you don't know where he is. It would make much more sense to me to have players stand off and stick to position, in a structured team shape, so everyone knows where everyone is at any given moment.

Barcelona doesn't do passess for passess sake. They do it for a purpose. At this moment, I can imagine short passing being used in a counter tactic, to have forwards keep the ball away from pressure, and invite opposition forward, so that defenders can do a direct pass and initiate a counter when requirements for that are met. You can set that up fairly easily, but that setup isn't fit for a top club. That's why Bayern trashed Barca 7-0 when Heynckes was in charge. And that's why Guardiola recently lost.

I understand what you are trying to say about being able to pass at any given moment and knowing where your teammates are, however you say that they don't pass for passing sake. If your team was to stick to positions then it would be a lot easier for the opposition to sit deep and block passing lanes, this in turn means that you will be passing for passing sake as their will be no options to pass forward.. I would definitely use roam from positions on the forwards.

 

[Igneos79]

I understand what you are trying to say about being able to pass at any given moment and knowing where your teammates are, however you say that they don't pass for passing sake. If your team was to stick to positions then it would be a lot easier for the opposition to sit deep and block passing lanes, this in turn means that you will be passing for passing sake as their will be no options to pass forward.. I would definitely use roam from positions on the forwards.

When you use shorter passing, the opposition is inclined to push up. You are inviting them onto you. Which leaves them exposed at the back. But if they decide to be disciplined and stay back, you will have issues, you are correct. And that's exactly what happened to Barcelona a while back. Counter is exactly it, fit for when you get attacked, which usually works great in first season with a weak club. Eventually, you must progress and go more agressive, what I already wrote. Roaming would work in a very fluid attacking tactic, which is probably fit for third or fourth season, when you have godly players.

 

[kismo]

What mentality are you using?

I use Counter or even Defend with agressive defending instructions.
This way my team plays with more patient, trying to find better passing opportunities sitting narrower

 

[kismo]

It would be difficult to send a ball to someone on a regular basis if you don't know where he is. It would make much more sense to me to have players stand off and stick to position, in a structured team shape, so everyone knows where everyone is at any given moment.

In order to achieve this, personally i use Be More Disciplined TI but every offensive player has Roam From Position PI. It seems to work quite well for me

 

[JohnR55]

When you use shorter passing, the opposition is inclined to push up. You are inviting them onto you. Which leaves them exposed at the back. But if they decide to be disciplined and stay back, you will have issues, you are correct. And that's exactly what happened to Barcelona a while back. Counter is exactly it, fit for when you get attacked, which usually works great in first season with a weak club. Eventually, you must progress and go more agressive, what I already wrote. Roaming would work in a very fluid attacking tactic, which is probably fit for third or fourth season, when you have godly players.

are you sure they push up? Because if I played a team like Barcelona I would close down less (would already be closing down less due to mentality) and to also drop deeper. I would be very happy to sit deep and allow them to pass the ball around at the half way line. That however is my opinion!

 

[Igneos79]

are you sure they push up? Because if I played a team like Barcelona I would close down less (would already be closing down less due to mentality) and to also drop deeper. I would be very happy to sit deep and allow them to pass the ball around at the half way line. That however is my opinion!

Opposition would be inclined to push up. And barcelona should be defending deep, closing down less not only to help keep shape, but to execute counters more properly. You don't want agressive defending if you defend in your own half, you want to be disciplined and narrow, preferably with a DM to help your defence. Staying on feet would also help, as you don't want players going for challenges and leaving your defence exposed. Barcelona however invented 6 sec pressing to try and win the ball quickly if lost, but if that failed, they stood off.

 

[JohnR55]

Opposition would be inclined to push up. And barcelona should be defending deep, closing down less not only to help keep shape, but to execute counters more properly. You don't want agressive defending if you defend in your own half, you want to be disciplined and narrow, preferably with a DM to help your defence. Staying on feet would also help, as you don't want players going for challenges and leaving your defence exposed. Barcelona however invented 6 sec pressing to try and win the ball quickly if lost, but if that failed, they stood off.

I don't understand why they have to push up?