Welcome!

FM Base has been serving the Football Manager community for nearly two decades and we're keen to ensure that we are here for two decades more.

Become a part of our community today, and you'll quickly realise that the Football Manager community is the best community.

Register

TheBetterHalf´s Counter & Control 4231/451 - NO Download

Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
The Better Half´s

Control & Counter





Disclaimer

This is not a tactic as such, but an approach using the Tactic Creator and the shouts.

Download

There is no (or will be any) download





Welcome

For the last couple f months, I have yet again reverted back to using the presented settings of the Tactic Creator and those settings only. Here, I am sharing the approach I have been using for about 10 season( some full, some half season) with various teams such as.
  • Nott Forest, Top team in 2023 - Unbeaten for 69 matches now
  • Wigan 2012/13
  • Fulham 2012/13
  • Bristol Rovers 2012/13
  • Liverpool 2012/13
  • Hoffenheim 2012/13
  • AIK ( Sweden)
  • Varberg ( Sweden )
  • Inter


The Newcastle Project

I will present to you and reason how I change roles and use the different formations and strategies along with the shouts. So far, I have only played 3 competetiv matches and it might take a day or two for me to take the needed screenshots and do the write-up.


The Approach


Basiclly, I load up 2 formations
, one Deep 4231 Control and one 451 Counter. As you can see, in the 4231 I use an Advanced FC stretching the defence with a TQ just behind him, sitting in the hole and linking up play with the DMCs.. As for the wingers, I tend to swap and change depending on who I play but Its crucial to keep a balance so it does not become 2 block, one defending and one attacking. In the other formation, the 451, I use a DLF on support to link up more and hold on to the ball when launching an attack. Again, the same things apply for the wingers as in the previous approach

As for the DMCs, MC, its again about having some players sitting deep and some moving forward and regarding the Fullbacks/Wingbacks, its something I again change depending on the players ( some are better at crossing, some are better at passing) and the opposition ( if they have really fast wingers, I might let them stay back a bit more and vice versa.

Switching between the 2 formations ingame ?
- Yes and here, the AMC drops into MCleft and becomes a CM/attack and the DMCleft pushes up into MCright(!), all to avoid the attacking MC to get in the way of the Advanced playmaker on the wing so he has space to cut inside when he has the ball . Here, I have found the a player like Sissoko/Toure/Gerrard etc is the perfect one to act both as a TQ in the AMC position as well as the CM on attack.


The Deep 4231


View attachment 346850

The 451

View attachment 346851



Along with this I use the following shouts

In all my saves, I have naturally not used all these differents shouts with all teams. After all, a team like Gateshead might not have the players for using the "Pass n´Move " shout, just like a team with really techniqual, yet slow players might not benefit from using the "Hit it Quickly". Here, its all about knowing your side and get inspired by these settings.

Pass n´Move

Passing the ball around with lots of movement
View attachment 346855


Exploit the Flanks

View attachment 346853
Its all about using the flanks and the width, using overlaps. Just remember that when doing this, the wingers hold on to the ball and this might not be what you want at all times.



Hit it Quickly

Higher tempo, more t-balls and players going directly at goal or hitting those early crosses from deep. This one works really good when we can exploit the space behing the oppositions fullbacks

NOTE: Consider NOT using the " run at defence" if you want really swift attacks and if really wanting to fully exploit the space being the opponenst line of defnce, its better to use an advanced FC or a Target Man /attack ( the role, not the actuall focus play)
View attachment 346854



Retain & Press

Here, we press higher and when in possession, we try to keep the ball

View attachment 346856

Drop Deep and Defend/Control

Here, its all about sitting deep and defend and restrict the opponent to taking longshots. Just be careful so you dont invite a team back into the game.

View attachment 346852


The Players
As I use the TC, all the needed stats are found within the game

Defenders

Fullbacks /Wingbacks

Here, I have used really poor ones, and some worldbeaters. The important thing to remember is to always to aware of the opportunities and the threats, meaning that in some games, I give the the Attack dutie and in some, the defend.

Central Defenders

I have not used anything fancy, just 2 plain DCs. In the end, its all about the balance and if you have one that is big and strong, you might need one that is quicker.


Central Midfielders

The Deep Playmaker
I like using one that stays deep and knows how to spread the passes

The DMC or CM on support
One thats is vey much like a Box 2 Mox midfielder

The AMC or CM on attack
Here, we have one that sits or gets into the AMC position, olne that is strong and can work his way out of a flooded area, one that comes up with a lot of options and one that has the composure and intelligence to make the correct decision

Wide midfielders

Its all about your players but do try to think about waht will happen if you have an AMR huges the touchline whilst you have a rightfooted FC that likes to move into channels down the right flank, or if its best to use an inside FC as the AML if the FC likes to drop deep etc etc.

In the end, its about having players moving between the lines, one pushing forward in HIS way, one provding space for other or one using his skills to beat his man etc etc. Play them to their best whilst make sure you have a plan B on the bench when the opponents switch to the " Stoke Deep 442".


The Attacker

Well, what kind of strikers do you have ? Personally, I always make sure I have both my Poachers, my advanced Forwards and my more complete FCs that likes to drop deep and link up with play.

Here, its again crucial to actually make an asummtion on how the flow will look like and watch the game to see if you are correct or if you need to switch role during a game.



Team Talks

I am very indpeth when I play so I actually take notes on how all my players react ( when I play a carer game that is). But here, I am not going into this


Opposition Instructions

I use them every game, but now from the start but as a reacion to what I see on the pitch

Example:
  • If the opponent play a 451 with a FC coming deep to get the ball, then I let a DMc man mark him and use Close down/always.
  • If they have a DMc that is the playmaker, then I use the AMC/MC in support to take care of him or if wanting to sit really deep, the FC
  • If the have inside forwards trying to cut inside, then I push them wide
  • If they have wingers trying to huge the line, without attacking and supporting fullbacks, then I show them inside
  • If they have a player acting reeeaaaly nervous, then I close him down/Always
  • If they have a MC or a AMC with greeat longshot/decision/technique, I show onto weaker foot
Match Prep

As always, either you focus on limiting the threat of the opponent or you try to exploit one of your strengths and their weaknesses
 
Last edited:
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Thread opened


Look at this as a discussion rather than a tactic and again, there is no download.
 
Last edited:
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
TBH when will be download available?
Like I stated in the Opening post, there is no download. Have a look at the opening post again to see what the approach is all about.
'

Cheers
 
Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Points
18
oh sory i was so surprised to see you open a new thread i thouth you will share a new one. since your last counter attack tatic i cant find something as good as yours :/
 
Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
149
Reaction score
1
Points
0
very interesting indeed, you basically... play the game ^^ I like that

to be honnest, this is the kind of thing you learn with experience, in depth analysis of matchs, to find what to do and to react instead of staying passive and moaning that the game sucks because "awesome_tactic DOESNT WORK FOR ME !11"

you have all my support, because unfortunately a lot of people will just ignore this post (lack of that "awesome_tactic", huh) while it's probably this kind of post that would make everyone a better FM player.

KUTGW

EDIT : haha what did I say ? :D
 
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Bit of a pointless thread tbh
Well, It would depend on how much you know about the game and how much you like to discuss it. For those struggling with using the shouts and wants to see my reasoning behing how and why I implement them, it will be a good read/discussion. But for those that already master it and dont want new input, then I agree with you.
 
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
oh sory i was so surprised to see you open a new thread i thouth you will share a new one. since your last counter attack tatic i cant find something as good as yours :/
Well, to be frank, I always suspected and said that my last tactic did indeed exploit some flaws with the Match Engine. Not with the aim to by TRial & error as the tactic was just set up as how I though it should be when wanting to use that kind of flow but none the less, it was exploiting.


Normally I post these kind of approaches in my sticked thread but I though I would do it here instead so a.. 1) get more attention, 2) get a discusison going
 
Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Interesting and quite opportune as I've recently started looking more at counter attacking football and trying to utilise the shouts aspect of the game, which by and large seems to get ignored.

For me, sometimes too much emphasis seems to get placed on moving as many team and individual settings as possible in an attempt to find that all elusive "perfect" tactic, yet the less is more rule for me is getting better results when counter attacking. By changing just the long shots slider to rarely, with no other changes, I'm seeing some nice team play and even the majority of possession in 90% of matches.

As for shouts I think that unless people are prepared to watch every match on at least comprehensive highlights, this very intriguing part of the game will continue to get overlooked. Which is a shame as otherwise we just become passive onlookers during matches who happen to make the odd substitution here and there.
 
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Interesting and quite opportune as I've recently started looking more at counter attacking football and trying to utilise the shouts aspect of the game, which by and large seems to get ignored.

For me, sometimes too much emphasis seems to get placed on moving as many team and individual settings as possible in an attempt to find that all elusive "perfect" tactic, yet the less is more rule for me is getting better results when counter attacking. By changing just the long shots slider to rarely, with no other changes, I'm seeing some nice team play and even the majority of possession in 90% of matches.

As for shouts I think that unless people are prepared to watch every match on at least comprehensive highlights, this very intriguing part of the game will continue to get overlooked. Which is a shame as otherwise we just become passive onlookers during matches who happen to make the odd substitution here and there.

Agree but actually, I dont touch the Long Shots slider either since I do like them to try them. ( i.e, dont look at a long shot taken as a last resort as a long shot but as a way of the opponent missing a counter attack ;D )

Then again, I dont use the B2B role :D
 
Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Agree but actually, I dont touch the Long Shots slider either since I do like them to try them. ( i.e, dont look at a long shot taken as a last resort as a long shot but as a way of the opponent missing a counter attack ;D )

Then again, I dont use the B2B role :D
I should correct myself and say I leave long shots slider alone for one or two of my players - but they must have decent stats in long shots and technique. Everyone else is set to rarely.

I'm continuing to experiment with different formations and player roles, although whichever formation I experiment with, using a counter attacking philosophy just seems like more fun to play with. Which is the whole point of a game after all.

The only real issue is knowing when to employ different shouts (sometimes it's best not to!), but that comes with actually watching what the ME is up to.

Good stuff.
 
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I'm continuing to experiment with different formations and player roles, although whichever formation I experiment with, using a counter attacking philosophy just seems like more fun to play with. Which is the whole point of a game after all.

The only real issue is knowing when to employ different shouts (sometimes it's best not to!), but that comes with actually watching what the ME is up to.

Good stuff.
Thats exactly how I play the game. I think many people just assume that Counter is something you use when being an underdog and Control when you are a favourite but actually, it can be the opposite.

CONTROL = can be used when wanting to control a game you would not be in control of otherwise
COUNTER = can be used when wanting to exploit and counter any weakness and strengths to the opponent


In my current save with Newcastle, I have been using Counter with the " retain shouts" away to QPR whilst using Control with the "Exploit Flanks" shouts away to United :D
 
Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Following this. Keep the updates/discussion going =)
 
Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
108
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Today I got much experience to manager my team and enjoy the game, thanks much !
 
Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
131
Reaction score
22
Points
18
Did you change any individual instructions? Or can I rebuild the tactics with the help of your screenshots? I struggle in creating decent tactics and would like to use your excellent OP to try a new approach!
 
Patient Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
8,209
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Did you change any individual instructions? Or can I rebuild the tactics with the help of your screenshots? I struggle in creating decent tactics and would like to use your excellent OP to try a new approach!
No sliders or settings have been " touched".
 
Top