US to avoid default as Senate backs debt ceiling rise

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It just baffles me when every single economic figure is very negative even the CPI has gone down and yet people are still adamant this is the right track...

The economic indicators are down because there's no magic button that fixes everything. We don't have a 'restore economy to factory settings' function. Things are going to get worse before they get better. Or if we use your ideas about the economy, things are going to get steadily worse and worse until people start jumping off buildings. :)
 
Slightly unrelated, but Joel got that Thatcher point completely spot on. It always makes me laugh when old people (I'm 18, I see everyone over the age as 25 as old, before you ask ;)) grumble about Thatcher and how terrible she was. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see that she took the right economic decisions, removed us from having to rely on outdated industries, and set Britain on a path to growth. She did what needed to be done at the time, and though people suffered at the time they were far fewer than those that would have suffered over generations if she hadn't.

We're at another such crossroads, and unfortunately I don't see anyone who has the balls (yeah, yeah, she was a woman, har har) to perform the massive cuts and take action like the Thatcher would've.


Spot on. I was a Thatcher fan myself. She build up a strong economy, ok made a few ill fated decisions that upset Scotland a bit, but she pretty much made this country strong. But of course, this upset the pillick labourites, and they destroyed it all, dismantled it piece by piece, and now look where we are. And of course you get the morons who can't wait for her to leave the mortal coil. They boil my ****. I long for the day when we have a leader like Thatcher again. Then this country will no longer be the laughing stock of Europe or the globe.
 
Spot on. I was a Thatcher fan myself. She build up a strong economy, ok made a few ill fated decisions that upset Scotland a bit, but she pretty much made this country strong. But of course, this upset the pillick labourites, and they destroyed it all, dismantled it piece by piece, and now look where we are. And of course you get the morons who can't wait for her to leave the mortal coil. They boil my ****. I long for the day when we have a leader like Thatcher again. Then this country will no longer be the laughing stock of Europe or the globe.

Wouldnt have dailled about military either, at least the cuts she would have made would have been savage but well thought out. These ones are shambolic
 
Spot on. I was a Thatcher fan myself. She build up a strong economy, ok made a few ill fated decisions that upset Scotland a bit, but she pretty much made this country strong. But of course, this upset the pillick labourites, and they destroyed it all, dismantled it piece by piece, and now look where we are. And of course you get the morons who can't wait for her to leave the mortal coil. They boil my ****. I long for the day when we have a leader like Thatcher again. Then this country will no longer be the laughing stock of Europe or the globe.

I think they burn effigy's of her to this day, she killed port towns/industrial output. She is part of the reason why we are so capitally centralised with our country's finance. Decided to globalise the FTSE and open England up to world investors, problem was is they mainly stayed in the City and never left so she basically isolated 3/4 of the country and essentially wrote off Scotland as a waste of space.

Got some things right and alot of things wrong,

Maybe part of my reason for disliking this fiscal policy is because I'm actually a huge fan of...Tony Blair. The guy responsible for...Let's go with 'all' of this deficit.

I still support alot of his policies and decisions, don't want to get too controversial and spark an Iraq debate but Blair was a strong leader who made alot of right decisions and always put the will of the people at the forefront on domestic policy.
 
Wouldnt have dailled about military either, at least the cuts she would have made would have been savage but well thought out. These ones are shambolic

Yeah, they are just incredibly ridiculous. No wonder more and more soldiers want to leave-who'd blame them when you have to buy your own equipment, or just don't get all the basic protection you need? To think I wanted to join the RAF when I was a kid. The armed forces brought a lot of pride to this country, but that's just now non-existant. And it's tragic. Especially when the level of the armed forces are on a par now with Belgiums/Luxembourgs

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I think they burn effigy's of her to this day, she killed port towns/industrial output. She is part of the reason why we are so capitally centralised with our country's finance. Decided to globalise the FTSE and open England up to world investors, problem was is they mainly stayed in the City and never left so she basically isolated 3/4 of the country and essentially wrote off Scotland as a waste of space.

Got some things right and alot of things wrong,

Maybe part of my reason for disliking this fiscal policy is because I'm actually a huge fan of...Tony Blair. The guy responsible for...Let's go with 'all' of this deficit.

I still support alot of his policies and decisions, don't want to get too controversial and spark an Iraq debate but Blair was a strong leader who made alot of right decisions and always put the will of the people at the forefront on domestic policy.

To be honest, when Blair came to power, I nearly feel for it, because it wasn't "Old Labour", and Old Labour, frankly, scared the **** out of me. With wanting to get rid of Nukes, and leaving the country defenceless against the now defunct Warsaw Pact, and half of them were just....to be polite, not quite there. But sadly, Mr. Blair (and his cabinet-not just him), pretty much screwed up majorly, and it went downhill from there.
 
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Yeah, they are just incredibly ridiculous. No wonder more and more soldiers want to leave-who'd blame them when you have to buy your own car, or just don't get all the basic protection you need? To think I wanted to join the RAF when I was a kid. The armed forces brought a lot of pride to this country, but that's just now non-existant. And it's tragic. Especially when the level of the armed forces are on a par now with Belgiums/Luxembourgs


That's a rather Daily Mail view of it. We're the fourth-highest military spenders in the world (IIRC), beating out the likes of Russia, Germany, Japan and Spain. The thing is, our view of 'basic protection' differs highly from many of the people we're above. Osprey body armour, for example, is some of the most advanced in the world, and thus it costs far more. Therefore we issue it to those who need it, and artillery officers are complaining they don't get any for some bizarre reason.

Also, saying our armed forces are on a par with Belgium's is pretty hilarious. Belgium don't even have any destroyers.
 
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That's a rather Daily Mail view of it. We're the fourth-highest military spenders in the world (IIRC), beating out the likes of Russia, Germany, Japan and Spain. The thing is, our view of 'basic protection' differs highly from many of the people we're above. Osprey body armour, for example, is some of the most advanced in the world, and thus it costs far more. Therefore we issue it to those who need it, and artillery officers are complaining they don't get any for some bizarre reason.

Also, saying our armed forces are on a par with Belgium's is pretty hilarious. Belgium don't even have any destroyers.

The only artillery officers who need it are the 105mm gunners who drop in danger close by chinook (they are basically artillery commandos) Anyone in an as90 should quit whining
 
It's not that big of an exaggeration actually, our defence capability is embarrassingly weak. The genuine reason is because of the EU defence treaty, we scrapped out own fighters to order 'Euro Fighters' which we funded most/all of the development yet they are being rolled out across the EU?

We barely have a say on EU agricultural policy for gods sake, that's how seriously the Europeans treat us.

Our only defence is Nuclear subs, our one strength is subs with nuclear weapons on board placed around the world. But that's 'Judgement Day' style defence, not your bread and butter aircraft carriers/capable helicopters.

We have cancelled the service of so many Navy ships as well since the SDR last year, it's just embarrassing...
 
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That's a rather Daily Mail view of it. We're the fourth-highest military spenders in the world (IIRC), beating out the likes of Russia, Germany, Japan and Spain. The thing is, our view of 'basic protection' differs highly from many of the people we're above. Osprey body armour, for example, is some of the most advanced in the world, and thus it costs far more. Therefore we issue it to those who need it, and artillery officers are complaining they don't get any for some bizarre reason.

Also, saying our armed forces are on a par with Belgium's is pretty hilarious. Belgium don't even have any destroyers.

Rest assured, I never read the Daily Mail lol-and why the **** did I put your own car :S - guess shouldn't have Top Gear on at same I suppose

And okay, maybe Belgium was a bit exaggarated because of their Naval forces, but after reading the cuts that are coming in, like some Chiefs have said, the chances of mounting a small military action, like a rescue, are pretty much slim

British forces would struggle to mount small military intervention, claim officers - Telegraph


 
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There is no focus on what this country wants from it armed forces. We cannot afford "full spectrum" what we should be is a lethal strike force, capaable of sending medium numbers of troops anywhere in the world, in effect a huge rapid reaction force. Should have cut trident, and moved the money towards the aircraft carriers.
 
You just hit the Trident nail right on the head.

Even when we get those super carriers we have no planes until 2018 to put on them!

Where's the sense in that?

The Harriers we had were ready...

Whoever did that SDR clearly has no idea what on earth modern warfare is about, even in the Cold War it would look fishy. We already have enough Nukes to blow up half the world why should we spend 30 billion on a programme to make sure we can blow up the other half as well.
 
Its not as if any of the Nukes are tactical warheads, they are high yield strategic ones, if you are launching those the war is already lost...
 
There is no focus on what this country wants from it armed forces. We cannot afford "full spectrum" what we should be is a lethal strike force, capaable of sending medium numbers of troops anywhere in the world, in effect a huge rapid reaction force. Should have cut trident, and moved the money towards the aircraft carriers.

Agree with that totally. To be honest, nuclear weapons are pretty unusable, can be flawed in design, or just un-necessary in some cases. What's the point in starting a war with somebody, when you want to capture a country, and you flatten a city you want to capture, and put your own forces at risk with fallout? I realise in some cases they can be useful in deterring other nations if you have a thread bare military, or have a larger more aggressive neighbour. But in the cases of more technologically advanced countries like Russia, USA, Britain, we don't really have to rely on them as much, as relations are no-where near as hot as they used to be. It's like NATO-what is the point? There's as much bickering as in the UN. And it's crippling countries with financial contributions. The West should pretty much just put the bad history behind, and just start trusting more, then all this un-necessary fear will dissapate. It's just annoying how we have a lot more trust with once-enemies, and yet continue to waste money on nuclear weapons that just sit there and decay, when we could use the money with co-operation, re-building our own country, and just getting on with our daily lives. A joint force with larger nations helping each other would be far more cost effective, and beneficial. We have all this technology we can share with others, that imo, would greatly improve the balance globally, and get rid of mistrust.
 
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Agree with that totally. To be honest, nuclear weapons are pretty unusable, can be flawed in design, or just un-necessary in some cases. What's the point in starting a war with somebody, when you want to capture a country, and you flatten a city you want to capture, and put your own forces at risk with fallout? I realise in some cases they can be useful in deterring other nations if you have a thread bare military, or have a larger more aggressive neighbour. But in the cases of more technologically advanced countries like Russia, USA, Britain, we don't really have to rely on them as much, as relations are no-where near as hot as they used to be. It's like NATO-what is the point? There's as much bickering as in the UN. And it's crippling countries with financial contributions. The West should pretty much just put the bad history behind, and just start trusting more, then all this un-necessary fear will dissapate. It's just annoying how we have a lot more trust with once-enemies, and yet continue to waste money on nuclear weapons that just sit there and decay, when we could use the money with co-operation, re-building our own country, and just getting on with our daily lives. A joint force with larger nations helping each other would be far more cost effective, and beneficial. We have all this technology we can share with others, that imo, would greatly improve the balance globally, and get rid of mistrust.

With the exception of N.Korea, every country with nukes doesn't have the intention of using them. The best way to stop a nuclear war is to give everybody a nuclear weapon.
 
It's not that big of an exaggeration actually, our defence capability is embarrassingly weak. The genuine reason is because of the EU defence treaty, we scrapped out own fighters to order 'Euro Fighters' which we funded most/all of the development yet they are being rolled out across the EU?

We barely have a say on EU agricultural policy for gods sake, that's how seriously the Europeans treat us.

Our only defence is Nuclear subs, our one strength is subs with nuclear weapons on board placed around the world. But that's 'Judgement Day' style defence, not your bread and butter aircraft carriers/capable helicopters.

We have cancelled the service of so many Navy ships as well since the SDR last year, it's just embarrassing...

Actually, it really is an exaggeration. Our military is over 6 times as big in terms of pure manpower as Belgium's, and something like 130 times as big as Luxembourg's, not to mention our clear superiority in terms of equipment, logistics and backup.

We scrapped our own fighters and replaced them with Typhoons because ours were simply outdated. The Tornado was a venerable design, but ageing. The whole point of Eurofighter Typhoons was that they were a European creation. The major players funded equally and received equally. We have the most in service IIRC.

Saying that we have no defence is pretty ridiculous. The Royal Air Force is one of the most powerful in the world, and the Royal Navy isn't exactly tiny either. More to the point, who's going to attack us? We're maintaining a large enough military to service our needs and no more, otherwise that would be wasteful.

Rest assured, I never read the Daily Mail lol-and why the **** did I put your own car :S - guess shouldn't have Top Gear on at same I suppose

And okay, maybe Belgium was a bit exaggarated because of their Naval forces, but after reading the cuts that are coming in, like some Chiefs have said, the chances of mounting a small military action, like a rescue, are pretty much slim

British forces would struggle to mount small military intervention, claim officers - Telegraph

Well yeah, but we knew that. It's been like that since the Suez crisis. We can't mount an invasion, no, but who else can apart from the Chinese, Americans and Russians? Nothing to be ashamed of or worried about.

A rescue we can EASILY do. For instance, the SAS and the Iranian Embassy Siege. Our Special Forces are the best in the world, bar none, and that's all you really need for a rescue, that and a means of getting them there.
 
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We don't have one of the best Navy's in the world anymore...Not at all.

The RAF point, I think the SDR cutback on alot of their bases across England and closed alot down so they are hardly going strong.

Either way you look at it we are essentially incapable of stretching ourselves for at least 4 years, ships got decommissioned like the Arc Royal and we have nothing in place within 3 years to replace it.

We really don't have the most powerful anything in the world, not anymore.

The Iranian embassy was in the 80s, we had plenty of support for the Defence budget (Cold War) and a stockpile.

We have a handful of Tornado's and a few typhoons in our air force and barely a fleet of helicopters, we really aren't the most powerful in the world or near it.

I might accept the point if we still had the huge fleet of Harriers but we don't...
 
We don't have one of the best Navy's in the world anymore...Not at all.

The RAF point, I think the SDR cutback on alot of their bases across England and closed alot down so they are hardly going strong.

Either way you look at it we are essentially incapable of stretching ourselves for at least 4 years, ships got decommissioned like the Arc Royal and we have nothing in place within 3 years to replace it.

We really don't have the most powerful anything in the world, not anymore.

The Iranian embassy was in the 80s, we had plenty of support for the Defence budget (Cold War) and a stockpile.

We have a handful of Tornado's and a few typhoons in our air force and barely a fleet of helicopters, we really aren't the most powerful in the world or near it.

I might accept the point if we still had the huge fleet of Harriers but we don't...

For the love of god.

The Royal Navy operates around 80 ships, all modern and sophisticated. We are second only to the United States in terms of size and quality, with the US Navy having more gross tonnage than the next 17 or so navies combined. We are the only ones building supercarriers apart from the US, and we're the only ones with fully-rounded blue water capabilities (apart from planes, though we do have HMS Ocean as a helicopter carrier and we will have a carrier fully operational in 2016, likely with STOVL aircraft). How we do not classify as 'one of the best in the world' is truly beyond me.

The RAF operates about a thousand aircraft, all of modern vintage, making it one of the biggest and most powerful in the world, again behind the Americans and perhaps the Chinese. Again, how this is not one of the best in the world is beyond me.

I didn't say we did have the most powerful anything. We do, however, take the most time, effort and money with our special forces, therefore they can rightly be considered the best in the world.

Right, except they carried out plenty of VIP rescue missions in recent conflicts from Afghanistan to Iraq.

You're the first person I've heard describe over 160 Typhoons, 140 Tornados, and around 200 helicopters of assorted varities ' a handful'.

Sod the ****** Harriers. What the **** is a Harrier going to do if we have nothing to operate it off? A wonderful aircraft, yes, but they're not designed to be used on land and they never EVER were.
 
For the love of god.

The Royal Navy operates around 80 ships, all modern and sophisticated. We are second only to the United States in terms of size and quality, with the US Navy having more gross tonnage than the next 17 or so navies combined. We are the only ones building supercarriers apart from the US, and we're the only ones with fully-rounded blue water capabilities (apart from planes, though we do have HMS Ocean as a helicopter carrier and we will have a carrier fully operational in 2016, likely with STOVL aircraft). How we do not classify as 'one of the best in the world' is truly beyond me.

The RAF operates about a thousand aircraft, all of modern vintage, making it one of the biggest and most powerful in the world, again behind the Americans and perhaps the Chinese. Again, how this is not one of the best in the world is beyond me.

I didn't say we did have the most powerful anything. We do, however, take the most time, effort and money with our special forces, therefore they can rightly be considered the best in the world.

Right, except they carried out plenty of VIP rescue missions in recent conflicts from Afghanistan to Iraq.

You're the first person I've heard describe over 160 Typhoons, 140 Tornados, and around 200 helicopters of assorted varities ' a handful'.

Sod the ****** Harriers. What the **** is a Harrier going to do if we have nothing to operate it off? A wonderful aircraft, yes, but they're not designed to be used on land and they never EVER were.

Re: SAS they are have been and are still kicking the **** out people covertly round the globe. They are still number 1, ask the serbian war criminals they nailed, ask the many many dead taliba and Al qaeda commanders

However the harriers is a fairly big deal. a very retarded decision
 
Re: SAS they are have been and are still kicking the **** out people covertly round the globe. They are still number 1, ask the serbian war criminals they nailed, ask the many many dead taliba and Al qaeda commanders

However the harriers is a fairly big deal. a very retarded decision

Sort of agree on the Harriers. Yes, they're wonderful, and yes, they stole the imagination of the British public, and yes, they were an engineering marvel. But if we don't have any carriers to operate them off, what use are they? At this moment in time, whether we have Harriers or not is irrelevant. They were also getting on a bit.
 
None of those aircraft can be launched off of an aircraft carrier though?

The Harriers could and were efficient, most of those Heli's are either rescue choppers or waiting around for desert modifications or not even being built.

That fleet of aircraft is around 15-16 aircraft bases throughout UK and NI, that's really not alot.

And the French already have a super carrier?

We are using it over Libya, the next 'upgrades' to the equipment is a supply of aircraft that the UK-US are collaborating on, they will be ready in 2017/18.

The Harrier is a brilliant tool to have, very versatile...There is a reason the US Military stockpiles them and uses them off their carriers.

We really don't have that big of an army anymore, I would argue we are still ahead of Germany/Italy but the French have taken our role over.

I accept the fact we aren't as important, we really don't have any sort of role...

I would argue if the Argentinians wanted the Falklands back it would be a closer fight than back in the 80's.

With 15k personnel cuts to the Armed Forces in the next few years as well I can only see our military getting even weaker.

SDR ruined our defence capability, we lost alot of ships in particular a few years earlier than the Navy planned. To give the military such short notice on cuts to the AF was always going to put us in serious trouble in the medium term.

Israel/Russia/USA/France all have stronger military's than ours and that's just off the top of my head.

You can argue we have no aircraft carriers for the Harriers now but come 2015 we will have no planes to put on the multi billion pound carriers?

Not for 3 years, so for 3 years we will have 2 super carriers with...No planes on them.

That is why the Harrier decision is fundamentally crazy.
 
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