You Need More Than One Tactic!

[rocheyb]

Best thread by a country mile and a fantastic read. I agree totally that a 3 set tactic setup is best and i employ a similar variant to yours except my Away or Defend a Lead formation contains 2 deeper players a BWM sppt and a DM def. Coupled with a 4411 Attak and 4411 Normal.
My question to you is i have found using minimal individual player instructions works best and keeps the flow of the football more consistent, would you agree? I also agree keeping the Defence identical in every formation creates a real life scenario like Arsenal in the 90's or Chelsea under Mourinho.
Never thought of using 352 and keen to see how you develop this, have added SS's to show how well my very average Colchester side are performing in the prem season 2016/17. Have changed the SS and favour a Enganche who is Will Hughes i bought from derby for 7 million and he works great.

View attachment 568357 View attachment 568360 View attachment 568363 My Tactic Set

A few player instructions kept to the minimum

View attachment 568366 View attachment 568368 View attachment 568370 View attachment 568373

Thanks, Gooner.

The value of using a limited number of player instructions is that it's much easier to remember what you told them while you're watching the match itself and, therefore, easier to diagnose what the problem might be or to identify where a change might provide an opportunity. At first with FM14, I was watching the matches and couldn't work out whether the players were doing what I told them, just getting bested by the opposition or struggling with contrary instructions - scaling it down helped me to process what was happening before my eyes into FM-think.

I have used the 5-3-2 a few times and tweaked it a bit, but I am far from perfecting it at the moment. It has several pros and cons:

Pros
- Defenders and midfielders spread out across the width of the pitch to occupy all channels.
- Three centre-backs gives you greater aerial prowess, both for defending and for attacking set-pieces.
- The two-up front with an Advanced Playmaker tucked in behind enables you to exploit the channels, which can work against big strong teams like Stoke City (and Ryan Shawcross in particular).
- It helps you to rotate players within the squad.

Cons
- You often have to choose between a re-trained defender or a re-trained winger to play as Wing Back. They are required to both defend and attack, so whichever you choose you're going to be slightly weak in one area or the other. I like to have a defender on one side and an attacker on the other, but both players are set to WB_Support.
- You have to play a High tempo game otherwise moves get bogged down in the final third. This can be great to watch but it can also lead to sloppy, imprecise passing and shots from anywhere.
- I have not achieved the same level of control or confidence in possession with this formation that I have with the 4-4-1-1 - which spreads the players out across the pitch better, from the starting positions.
- It can go a bit Basketball sometimes; up-and-back with little intervention from the central midfielders, with your only wide man stranded at the other end of the pitch.

I'll persevere, though, and post a detailed thread about it if I think I have enough insight. But I'm only using it occasionally during my Saints save so it may take a while for me to work it out properly.

 

[rocheyb]

A 4-4-1-1 with two deep central midfielders would certainly be defensively solid. In my game, Stoke City's 4-4-2 is set-up like that and I have found them really difficult to break down, despite dominating possession.

You would probably need the No.10 to be a more creative player - perhaps an Advanced Playmaker or Trequartista with impressive stats for dribbling, passing and creativity to allow for the fact that he will often be much further upfield than the other midfielders and possibly the wingers too, at times, so he'll need to be able to develop the attacking play on his own. A Complete Forward up top instructed to Move into channels and Shoot more often would be your main goal threat.

Having the central midfielders so deep might impact on how effectively your team uses its wingers because they would often receive the ball in deep positions. So I wonder whether playing a counter attacking style but with short passing and a high tempo, with your two DMs detailed to play More direct passes, and both wide men set to Winger_Attack (Get to byline; Aim crosses at target man; Get further forward) might help you to regularly spring them forward with attacking purpose. That might also overcome the potential problem of your No.10 and Striker being isolated from the central midfielders; the wingers will be looking to bring them into play during the build-up or to get straight to the byline and aim crosses at them when the opportunity presents.

I imagine this could become one of those tactics that works better against the more expansive top teams than the relegation battlers who sit back and try to soak up pressure.

 

[hugsy]

Hi rockeyb, im trying to follow your way of dealing with fm14, but i have a question, how do you deal with the loss of tactic fluity? Changing these many things as mentality, and shape always affect the tactic

 

[rocheyb]

Hi rockeyb, im trying to follow your way of dealing with fm14, but i have a question, how do you deal with the loss of tactic fluity? Changing these many things as mentality, and shape always affect the tactic

Hi Hugsy,

Yes - the progress bar, that indicates how well trained a particular tactic is, does degrade when you alter the settings for attacking mentality and fluidity. In my experience, that doesn't prevent the tactic from working well and helping you to get results. But watch it closely in your game and if you think it's worthwhile, train the team on both the offensive and defensive versions of the same tactic.

 

[rocheyb]

View attachment 570716

Taking into account what you said have gone with these TI's my thinking is that Retain,Disciplined and Drop Deeper will help to keep the shape and allow the wingers space to manoeuvre, thinking of maybe adding stay wider to wingers as when countering might have them stretched? Have found that lower tempo and hassle opps work well together so seems logical to keep them in a counter formation might drop stick to position but want to see if any impact on wingers and forwards first.

I think you're right to get the wingers to stay wider, but your formation looks very defensive - let me know how effective it is at bringing the Wingers and the Advanced Playmaker into the game. Does your team suffer for not having the central midfielders in support higher up the pitch?

The lower tempo shouldn't affect your Wingers' ability to run with the ball down the wing. I think the Advanced Playmaker should also be encouraged to run with it and play Direct passes to the Centre Forward.

 

[martianmanager]

As someone that used to get EXTREMELY-NEAR-SMASHING-LAPTOP-MAD with FM I agree with this thread. Though, of course/inevitably, there are still some silly things that happen...

After adapting and mixing some online tactics form the great tacticians here, I feel that this is the way to go. About to foray into a new save by developing 3 of my own tactics. Will probably provide worse results since I'm new, but is exciting!

 

[mikeybee09]

I need some testers to try this.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2014-tactics/161901-jorge-jesus-slb-tactic.html

 

[Andymanlfc]

I'm doing something similar with my Morecambe save. I currently have a narrow tactic (4-1-3-2) and a wider tactic (4-5-1) and switch between teams that I want to exploit there weaknesses down the wings or through the middle. I have to use the narrow tactic a lot at the minute because I don't really have great wingers. I'm also using a tactic for games I know we shouldn't be winning with 5 at the back.

Only just finishing pre-season at the minute, not had some bad results. Only just lost to Blackpool using my narrow formation not my big teams tactic.

Will update you how I get on if you would like?

 

[rocheyb]

I'm doing something similar with my Morecambe save. I currently have a narrow tactic (4-1-3-2) and a wider tactic (4-5-1) and switch between teams that I want to exploit there weaknesses down the wings or through the middle. I have to use the narrow tactic a lot at the minute because I don't really have great wingers. I'm also using a tactic for games I know we shouldn't be winning with 5 at the back.

Only just finishing pre-season at the minute, not had some bad results. Only just lost to Blackpool using my narrow formation not my big teams tactic.

Will update you how I get on if you would like?

Yes - let me know how you get on.

 

[WalkerRFC]

Great post!

Out of interest, how did you deal with board philosophy of possession at Southampton? It's what stops me from playing as them: I don't want to commit to possession, I'm a defensive kind of manager.

Your tactics don't seem possession-orientated either, so that got me wondering how you appease the board (after this inspired me to consider a S'oton save!).

 

[rocheyb]

Great post!

Out of interest, how did you deal with board philosophy of possession at Southampton? It's what stops me from playing as them: I don't want to commit to possession, I'm a defensive kind of manager.

Your tactics don't seem possession-orientated either, so that got me wondering how you appease the board (after this inspired me to consider a S'oton save!).

As you become more successful in the game, you are able to chip away at the board's philosophies and shape them to your own preference. To begin with, Nicola Cortese wanted me to sign Italian players, which I did for a couple of seasons, until I was able to remove that stipulation from the list.

My football is possession-based. In the 4-4-1-1 formation that I use most often:

Team Instructions
- Retain possession
- Shorter passing
- Work ball into box
- Play out of defence
- Float crosses
- Exploit the flanks
- Play wider
- Hassle Opponents
- Get stuck in

Goalkeeper
- Distribute to defenders
- Pass it shorter

Instructions for all defenders include Pass it shorter. The central midfielders are encouraged to switch the play (if it's not already listed among their attributes as a Preferred Move, I train it into them):

Ball-Winning Midfielder
- Close down more
- More direct passes

Deep-Lying Playmaker
- Close down more
- More direct passes

The front man plays short passes. The instructions to the other three attackers depend on their individual skills, but I like to get creative players to play direct or risky passes if they are up to it. Thinking about it, I suppose I instruct the team to play a short-passing possession game, but the attack to be more dynamic and exploit any opportunity they can.

We usually boss possession against most teams, and even when we don't, we tend to do more with it!

See my other thread about the 4-4-1-1 formation that I now use most often:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...1-real-4-4-2-how-i-learned-play-triangle.html

 

[rocheyb]

I have turned my tactics into a Manager Story now, over in the relevant thread of this website and via this helpful link:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot.../163194-diary-season-st-marys-redemption.html

 

[efesta]

what about team training mate?

 

[rocheyb]

what about team training mate?

See the bottom of this page in my thread on 4-4-1-1. The images didn't display so they are on the first post on the subsequent page:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...real-4-4-2-how-i-learned-play-triangle-2.html

 

[efesta]

See the bottom of this page in my thread on 4-4-1-1. The images didn't display so they are on the first post on the subsequent page:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...real-4-4-2-how-i-learned-play-triangle-2.html

so as i can see for ss you have tactics in whole season and pre-season right? and something else maybe you can help me, I most use 4-4-1-1 i got balanta and douglas(moschow) for defenders but my defense totally SUCKS i dont know why, even in retarded team my defense cant defend....

 

[rocheyb]

so as i can see for ss you have tactics in whole season and pre-season right? and something else maybe you can help me, I most use 4-4-1-1 i got balanta and douglas(moschow) for defenders but my defense totally SUCKS i dont know why, even in retarded team my defense cant defend....

I'd need to see screenshots of your defenders and how your midfielders are set-up to offer any insight. Are a majority of your players playing in their preferred positions and roles? If not, that might be the best place to start.

 

[efesta]

I'd need to see screenshots of your defenders and how your midfielders are set-up to offer any insight. Are a majority of your players playing in their preferred positions and roles? If not, that might be the best place to start.

everyone play in their a position accomplished and his best role or second best. what exactly ss should i saw you my defenders profile or formation?

 

[rocheyb]

everyone play in their a position accomplished and his best role or second best. what exactly ss should i saw you my defenders profile or formation?

I don't really know what the problem is so I'm not sure what screenshots would be best to show me - assuming that I'd be able to recognise the problem with the most appropriate screenshots, anyway. So I'll approach this differently:

It took me until season 2018/19 to win the Premier League with Southampton, prior to which I finished 6th three times and then 8th. Then, after winning it twice in three seasons, I have finished 2nd, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in the four seasons since. I also lost the Champions League Final once before winning it for the first time two seasons later (my most recent competitive match). Dominating the Capital One Cup for 7 consecutive years and frequent success in the FA Cup - plus decent if ultimately failed challenges in the league and in Europe - kept me convinced that I was on the right track, and I could see that part of my problem was that several young players of great potential still had a fairly limited Current Ability according to my scouts. Plus, I was playing with Southampton, which is a football club hardly synonymous with glory.

So which team are you and how far into the game are you? Are you being patient enough in terms of allowing your young players to develop into their full potential, new players to settle in (and in some cases, learn the language) and the whole squad to learn your particular tactics?

Speaking of tactics, in my 4-4-1-1 the Central Defenders are given very straight forward instructions to Close Down opponents and Pass Shorter, basically because I don't trust them in possession and want them to give it to a full-back or midfield player who can start progressing the forward play.

In Central Midfield, I have a Ball-Winning Midfielder_Defend and a Deep-Lying Playmaker_Support. Both are told to Close Down More and, as good passers of the ball with decent Creativity, they are instructed to play More Direct Passes, too. James Ward-Prowse and Morgan Schneiderlin both had Likes To Switch Play Often and Tries Long Range Passes listed among their attributes when I started my Southampton save, so I have looked for these attributes when assessing new midfield signings ever since and I re-train those Preferred Moves into my younger midfielders whenever possible.

This enables the Central Midfielders to influence and support attacks without straying too far from their own positions, so they rarely leave the defence exposed to counter attack and can get back and defend when the opposition has periods of possession. It helps too that Ward-Prowse has a good long range shot on him and excellent set-piece delivery, so he can achieve high match ratings quite early in a game that then helps him on to a better performance across the 90 minutes (...although, now aged 30 in my save, he did just get carried off with knee ligament damage sustained in his own pre-season testimonial against Inter, and is going to be out for 6 weeks!)

At the Team Level, I have Hassle Opponents and Get Stuck In to ensure that we are competitive all over the field and Opposition Instructions to close down all opposition midfielders and attackers, with Normal strength tackling and showing them onto their Weaker Foot. So my team presses all over the pitch, like Pochettino's Southampton did and his new-look Tottenham side have begun to demonstrate. We don't get many red cards but I have a couple of players who can be relied upon to get booked every time they set foot on the field of play, so my squad is built to accommodate the occasional suspension.

In the transfer market I strongly favour players with high Stamina so they can play this way for the whole match and I use my youth academy to supplement my squad with extra numbers beyond the 25-man registered limits imposed by Premier League and Champions League rules.

In short then: Patience, Padawan!

 

[efesta]

Well that helped me a lot , what about prefered moves about the rest positions of the team?

 

[rocheyb]

Well that helped me a lot , what about prefered moves about the rest positions of the team?

For the rest of the team, my coaches will often recommend Preferred Moves training for an individual player so I just decide whether or not I want that player to develop that particular skill and then either agree so the coaches can get to work on coaching him, or dismiss the suggestion so nothing happens. Mostly, I do agree, but occasionally the recommendations are not so good.

And then, sometimes I will train a younger player to emulate a more senior player - so that he can come on as substitute, or come in as part of my squad rotation, and play a specific role in the same way as the senior player.