A standard - flexible approach with no TI's - Can it work?

[Gorstak]

I think it can. Actually, I beleive any approach can work if setup properly. But to setup things properly, you need to know how game mechanics work.

I don't know everything about game mechanics, but I feel I learned enough to try to make this work properly.

I will be testing the tactic in the following week, but I would appreciate any input you might have.

So, how does it work? Basically, when you set a flexible, standard approach, everything is at the middle. You wont pass short nor long, close down more nor less. According to the sticky guide at this forum, you aren't supposed to have a holding midfielder either, making it even more difficult to setup properly. I wont be using the play out of defence TI, or any other TI for that matter, so my defenders will do passess or crossess. Meaning two things. First, I don't need central midfielders, as the ball will bypass them, and second, if I'm not going to use central midfielders, I should use DM's to connect the defence and offence, preferably with support duty, so that they have licence to go forward and put aditional pressure in the final third. Target for those crossess and passess should be a strong target man, and he should be in charge of supplying wingers. Or the other way around. If wingers run into trouble, I use two FB's to give them a passing option. My passing focus is mixed, and width is at the middle, so everyone will receive balls. In case things get complicated, I should perhaps use someone a bit smarter then target man, so I opted for DLFs. All of my roles are actually non specialised ones, making it even more brilliant.

This is what my tactic looks like:

View attachment 254841

So, if opponent defends, our passing is mixed, and we will combine both shorter and direct passess, and use a striker dropping deep with support duty, and wingers with attack duty, and stretch their defence, and if they decide to attack us, they will run into a wall of bodies, and they will get countered by direct passess or crossess either to wingers or to DLF. If you have smart players, they will probably choose the best pass easily, and if you have a weaker team, tempo isn't touched, meaning it is at the middle, so they should have no problems finding the correct pass. Not closing down more nor less means we will keep team shape but still press enough not to get pressed into our own half.

So, if you are willing to test it, give it a go. Any input on improving the tactic would be welcome.

 

[JohnR55]

I think it can. Actually, I beleive any approach can work if setup properly. But to setup things properly, you need to know how game mechanics work.

I don't know everything about game mechanics, but I feel I learned enough to try to make this work properly.

I will be testing the tactic in the following week, but I would appreciate any input you might have.

So, how does it work? Basically, when you set a flexible, standard approach, everything is at the middle. You wont pass short nor long, close down more nor less. According to the sticky guide at this forum, you aren't supposed to have a holding midfielder either, making it even more difficult to setup properly. My first idea was to pack the defence with bodies, but that didn't work as inteded, and a few moments ago, I remembered the sweeper role and decided to use it instead of a holding midfielder. It did two things. First, it helped my defence a lot, as now I had an available man to help out where necessary, and second removed the need for sweeper keeeper, as he will be doing the sweeping of through balls. I wont be using the play out of defence TI, or any other TI for that matter, so my defenders will probably do passess or crossess. Meaning two things. First, I don't need central midfielders, as the ball will bypass them, and second, if I'm not going to use central midfielders, I should use DM's to connect the defence and offence, preferably with support duty, so that they have licence to go forward and put aditional pressure in the final third. Target for those crossess and passess should be a strong target man, and he should be in charge of supplying wingers. Or the other way around. If wingers run into trouble, I use two FB's to give them a passing option. My passing focus is mixed, and width is at the middle, so everyone will receive balls. In case things get complicated, I should perhaps use someone a bit smarter then target man, so I opted for DLFs. All of my roles are actually non specialised ones, making it even more brilliant.

This is what my tactic looks like:

View attachment 882112

So, if opponent defends, our passing is mixed, and we will combine both shorter and direct passess, and use a striker dropping deep with support duty, and wingers with attack duty, and stretch their defence, and if they decide to attack us, they will run into a wall of bodies, helped by a sweeper, and they will get countered by direct passess or crossess either to wingers or to DLF. If you have smart players, they will probably choose the best pass easily, and if you have a weaker team, tempo isn't touched, meaning it is at the middle, so they should have no problems finding the correct pass. Not closing down more nor less means we will keep team shape but still press enough not to get pressed into our own half.

So, if you are willing to test it, give it a go. Any input on improving the tactic would be welcome.

why can you not use a holding midfielder?

 

[Gorstak]

why can you not use a holding midfielder?

Well, it's a flexible team shape, meaning midfielders are supposed to do defending and transition (DM) or transition and attacking, meaning the DM should be given a support duty since his natural task is defending, and others attack duties, since their natural task is supporting. Meaning no defend duties. Sticky explains it quite well.

 

[JohnR55]

Well, it's a flexible team shape, meaning midfielders are supposed to do defending and transition (DM) or transition and attacking, meaning the DM should be given a support duty since his natural task is defending, and others attack duties, since their natural task is supporting. Meaning no defend duties. Sticky explains it quite well.

Don't agree with some of the stuff that sticky says, I'm currently using a flexible team shape and have a defensive midfielder in defend duty. I have beat Barcelona 2-0 at home and drew 3-3 away, also sitting top of the premier league. This is me in my third season at Newcastle btw.You are saying that midfielders are responsible for these phases of play, but there is more Than one midfielder, for example one could be to defend, the other transition and the last one attack.

 

[callamity]

Almost replied with the lyrics to man in the mirror, it has as much tactical accuracy as this thread

 

[Gorstak]

Don't agree with some of the stuff that sticky says, I'm currently using a flexible team shape and have a defensive midfielder in defend duty. I have beat Barcelona 2-0 at home and drew 3-3 away, also sitting top of the premier league. This is me in my third season at Newcastle btw.You are saying that midfielders are responsible for these phases of play, but there is more Than one midfielder, for example one could be to defend, the other transition and the last one attack.

Not in a flexible team shape. I'm not saying your setup wont work, I just want perfection. In a fluid team shape you could have one attack, one defend and one support duty. Perhaps if you followed football rules to the letter, you would have won both matches? Try your tactic in LLM, see how it fares there.

 

[JohnR55]

Not in a flexible team shape. I'm not saying your setup wont work, I just want perfection. In a fluid team shape you could have one attack, one defend and one support duty. Perhaps if you followed football rules to the letter, you would have won both matches? Try your tactic in LLM, see how it fares there.

So you're saying that the person who wrote the sticky in this forum, knows more about the game than Cleon etc over at SI? Because what you're saying contradicts what they are saying.

 

[Gorstak]

So you're saying that the person who wrote the sticky in this forum, knows more about the game than Cleon etc over at SI? Because what you're saying contradicts what they are saying.

I have no idea who cleon is, or who the person who wrote the sticky is. But it sounds sensible to me. I like rules. It's like a puzzle with milion pieces, or a rubic cube if you want. Everyone gets a cube in the end, but only one is perfect.

 

[Gorstak]

Almost replied with the lyrics to man in the mirror, it has as much tactical accuracy as this thread

I'd be more then happy to hear your suggestions.

 

[WJ]

I have no idea who cleon is, or who the person who wrote the sticky is. But it sounds sensible to me. I like rules. It's like a puzzle with milion pieces, or a rubic cube if you want. Everyone gets a cube in the end, but only one is perfect.

The problem with blindly following rules, is that you have no idea what you are doing because you don't understand the thinking behind the rules.

Essentially, what you've created here is a one-dimensional counter attacking tactic. If you don't immediately score on the counter, you'll struggle otherwise. The wingers bomb down the line to cross to no one. The midfield is non existant, really, because they'll be in line, next to each other. You don't have proper movement; you don't have proper passing options. With 3 at the back, you can afford to be much more attacking with your fullbacks. If you are, you don't need those wingers anymore.

I haven't seen it in action, but I don't have high hopes for it going forward. Defensively, I'm sure you'll be fine though.

That's not to say that a Standard, Flexible, no TI approach cannot work - it can. This one won't though.

 

[WJ]

I have no idea who cleon is

Find out. ASAP. You will not regret it.

 

[Fusershift]

That sticky got closed on the SI forums, lol.

 

[Gorstak]

The problem with blindly following rules, is that you have no idea what you are doing because you don't understand the thinking behind the rules.

Essentially, what you've created here is a one-dimensional counter attacking tactic. If you don't immediately score on the counter, you'll struggle otherwise. The wingers bomb down the line to cross to no one. The midfield is non existant, really, because they'll be in line, next to each other. You don't have proper movement; you don't have proper passing options. With 3 at the back, you can afford to be much more attacking with your fullbacks. If you are, you don't need those wingers anymore.

I haven't seen it in action, but I don't have high hopes for it going forward. Defensively, I'm sure you'll be fine though.

That's not to say that a Standard, Flexible, no TI approach cannot work - it can. This one won't though.

I thought the whole point of flexible standard approach was counter attacking? You aren't playing out of defence, your defenders WILL clear the ball to forwards. What am I doing wrong in your oppinion? How would you set it up?

 

[WJ]

I thought the whole point of flexible standard approach was counter attacking? You aren't playing out of defence, your defenders WILL clear the ball to forwards. What am I doing wrong in your oppinion? How would you set it up?

If you wanted counter attacking, why not just simply use the Counter or Defensive mentality? You lose out on the benefits of those two mentalites because Standard doesn't have the 'counter attack' box ticked under the hood, for one thing.

I did explain the problems you have in that post.

 

[callamity]

I thought the whole point of flexible standard approach was counter attacking? You aren't playing out of defence, your defenders WILL clear the ball to forwards. What am I doing wrong in your oppinion? How would you set it up?

your defenders will play depending on their attributes and the roles around them, regardless of what approach you take. If you had a deeplying playmaker in front of them they would look to pass to him, he would come deep into space to receive the ball.

A standard flexible approach if set up correctly will work without TI's depending on if that is exactly what you are wanting to achieve. It does not guarantee perfection. If I was going to choose standard I would be choosing it because of where I wanted to engage the opposition on the pitch, I would be wanting to start pressing around the half way line. It would depend on the strength of my team or the style of football I wanted to play. I cannot tell you how I would set it up because I currently have no idea what you want to achieve, what style of play, anything at all. You have chosen to follow a set of rules that arent even rules. Just because something has sticky on it does not mean it is 100% accurate.

PS guide to football manager has been branded as inaccurate by "the creators of the ME" so never ever quote that in future. Go to

Tactics & Training Discussion

Read the ******* stickies in there, get educated in FM and come back with something, just something

 

[Gorstak]

Well, it looks like WJ was correct. I got trashed by qpr.

If WJ is correct, I probably need more support duties to create movement and chances, and CMa's to score them.

I just changed to this:

View attachment 255070

got me this result:

View attachment 255067

they did get a red, but I was a threat in the first half, when they played counter attack formation, and in second half when they played control.

 

[WJ]

I have no idea who cleon is, or who the person who wrote the sticky is. But it sounds sensible to me. I like rules. It's like a puzzle with milion pieces, or a rubic cube if you want. Everyone gets a cube in the end, but only one is perfect.

By the way, the way you (or the guide or whatever) choose roles is very limiting. It's based on Team Shape, which is wrong. The Team Shape description refers to the mentality splits under the hood. Very Fluid having a global mentality, Very Fluid being split into 2 mentality groups, Flexible 3, Structured 4 and Very Structured 5. The mentalities are already, automatically done for you, under the hood. This will automatically cause (along with passing directness/length) players to be more or less involved in the different phases of play. It has absolutely nothing to do with roles and duties.

Roles and duties should be set in accordance with your players' strengths and weaknesses and the basic tactic creating 'rules' of creating space and movement between the lines.

 

[WJ]

Well, it looks like WJ was correct. I got trashed by qpr.

If WJ is correct, I probably need more support duties to create movement and chances, and CMa's to score them.

I just changed to this:

View attachment 882436

got me this result:

View attachment 882443

they did get a red, but I was a threat in the first half, when they played counter attack formation, and in second half when they played control.

Y'know, I almost want to say that that tactic is better. It's still not great though.

I'd love to know how you envision that tactic to work. I would really appreciate that explanation.

 

[Gorstak]

By the way, the way you (or the guide or whatever) choose roles is very limiting. It's based on Team Shape, which is wrong. The Team Shape description refers to the mentality splits under the hood. Very Fluid having a global mentality, Very Fluid being split into 2 mentality groups, Flexible 3, Structured 4 and Very Structured 5. The mentalities are already, automatically done for you, under the hood. This will automatically cause (along with passing directness/length) players to be more or less involved in the different phases of play. It has absolutely nothing to do with roles and duties.

Roles and duties should be set in accordance with your players' strengths and weaknesses and the basic tactic creating 'rules' of creating space and movement between the lines.

I rememeber this thread from when I took a glance at that forum a few years ago...

The Barcelona Style: My Interpretation

Would you agree with him?

 

[WJ]

I rememeber this thread from when I took a glance at that forum a few years ago...

The Barcelona Style: My Interpretation

Would you agree with him?

I agree with absolutely everything wwfan says. You'd be a fool not to.