Capitalism vs Socialism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joel`
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Which system do you prefer?

  • Capitalism

    Votes: 32 55.2%
  • Socialism

    Votes: 26 44.8%

  • Total voters
    58
But then there's still a huge gulf in inequality. Equality is always an impossible ideal because there's always going to be one guy at the top richer than the rest. And also, free market allocation > planned economy. :P

Of course. However, it's about degrees of inequality: total, perfect equality is near-impossible. And that kind of system would be the fairest and most equal you can get.

Pfft, free market allocation > planned economy? My word Joel, that's sloppy. You've just let me in with the classic "WHAT ABOUT MERIT GOODS BEING UNDERCONSUMED AND VICE-VERSA FOR DEMERIT GOODS" gambit! :P
 
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neither system is perfect, just look back in history ;)
Karl Marx was great man, but misundrestood. He didnt want to accept capitalism as perfect system, but he was against "comunism" too. But comunism is built on his idea.
I would say Capitalism>socialism, but capitalism must evolve, again.
 
Sweden? Also, China is fundamentally socialist and is one of the great economic powerhouses of the world.

China is becoming more and more capitalist though. Look at its communist days to its rapid growth where it opened up trade. And there's still gross inequality and the majority live very, very poor quality of lives even if they have the highest economic growth rates in the world. They also fix their exchange rates at stupidly low levels to inherit all world trade, the free market is very much alive in China.

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Of course. However, it's about degrees of inequality: total, perfect equality is near-impossible. And that kind of system would be the fairest and most equal you can get.

Pfft, free market allocation > planned economy? My word Joel, that's sloppy. You've just let me in with the classic "WHAT ABOUT MERIT GOODS BEING UNDERCONSUMED AND VICE-VERSA FOR DEMERIT GOODS" gambit! :P

We have provision of merit goods and taxation disincentives on demerit goods, no? :) But that's mixing both ideals. If we went strictly free market vs complete planned economy, the free market wins every time. (A)

Well inequality has risen under 12 years of labour government? :) My argument is that when we allow the economy to be more productive, the money trickles down and everyone's welfare relatively increases. What's the point in having everyone equal, when everyone has nothing after all?
 
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I know that capitalism is the way forward for all of us, hugely flawed though it is. However, there is a way for socialism to prosper. Unfortunately, that method requires a dictator. Appointing (and I use that word EXTREMELY loosely) a dictator combats all inefficiencies associated with socialism, such as your aforementioned lack of allocative efficiency.

So, it's a tossup: freedom, or inequality. Choose your poison, gentlemen.

The thing is, a dictatorship, as with a monarchy, requires a very capable and incorruptbile leader. I wouldn't mind being ruled by a dictator, as long as he knows what he's doing - freedom as we know it isn't as free as we think. If we go (way) back in time, to the times of the romans, where dictatorships were 6 month periods in which a single person concentrated the power of the senate, usually in times of military trouble, we'll find examples of good dictators and bad ones. The chances are every once in a while we'd get a ****** dictator and a generation would be wasted or the system would be overthrown, or at the very least weakened. Socialism is hard to apply in practice, thus, as much as I adhere to it's principles, it's unlikely to succeed right now. Maybe in a future the situation may change, or maybe we'll never get to see true socialism in our world, but I would certainly welcome changes to this system. Until then, I envy the Danes, the Swedes, the Icelanders and their almost perfect Gini coefficient.
 
Egypt and Libya are by far the richest African countries. (Don't mention what's happening to them now 8-|)

I think you will find the 2 richest are South Africa and Nigeria, South Africa bringing in over 100 Billion more a year then Egypt. Also both these countries are functioning democracies (barely)aka capitalism

Capitalism definitely the better ideology, then again my views are biased because its the only system ive ever lived under and would definitely not want that to change
 
I am far too tired to play devil's advocate for a cause I believe cannot exist against people using long words like disincentives and coefficients...
 
I actually had to write an essay on this a few weeks ago, covers most of my points. It was rushed in lesson so no doubt GC is going to destroy me for something. :(

It's quite long so none of you will probably read it, but it covers some of my opinions on the matter.
 
I am far too tired to play devil's advocate for a cause I believe cannot exist against people using long words like disincentives and coefficients...

Hopefully you won't have to advocate against me since I'm on your side of the street :P

---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 AM ----------

I actually had to write an essay on this a few weeks ago, covers most of my points. It was rushed in lesson so no doubt GC is going to destroy me for something. :(

It's quite long so none of you will probably read it, but it covers some of my opinions on the matter.

The match is quite boring so I wouldn't mind giving it a read, I guess.
 
In many ways China has adopted Capitalism more than any ever thought they would. The Chinese have always been a very clever people and with the resources at their disposal they would have been remiss to not explore that route.

China now has a huge foothold in Africa, Exporting the vast resources that continent. Capitalism is being embraced rapidly by the Chinese. They are the premier super power in the world right now. They are the new America... sort of oO)
 
Okay, I had been typing for like half an hour and my firefox crashed on me, so I'm really ******. I'll post something tomorrow, hopefully, I had found some of your thoughts interesting, and although I do disagree with most of them, I've come to realise you living in the UK and me living in Argentina may have a lot to do with it, as we're faced with two very different realities.
 
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Okay, I had been typing for like half an hour and my firefox crashed on me, so I'm really ******. I'll post something tomorrow, hopefully, I had found some of your thoughts interesting, and although I do disagree with most of them, I've come to realise you living in the UK and me living in Argentina may have a lot to do with it, as we're faced with two very different realities.

What on earth were you typing that takes half an hour sounds scary :O
 
What on earth were you typing that takes half an hour sounds scary :O

I was reading Joel's essay at the same time. I'm blowing off steam now playing FM, tomorrow I'll have something naughty naughty posted :P
 
Im a believer in the socialist system.

I happen to live in America and i dont like the capitalist system at all, the healthcare is so expensive.
 
Im a believer in the socialist system.

I happen to live in America and i dont like the capitalist system at all, the healthcare is so expensive.

You're a believer in the socialist system? Interesting. I'm a socialist by principle, but I think that a real socialist system is near impossible to implement well.
 
I'm a capitalist with socialist tendencies, though unlike many right-wing parties, I'm also socially right-wing.

As for the NHS being a good thing... I've had an eye infection since May. I get to see a specialist (after going through a fair few doctors), possibly, in April. I've now decided to get private health care instead. The UK spends more than 100 billion pounds on the NHS which caters to 51 million people. You do the maths if you think that is efficient...

Though....


RON PAUL FOR 2012!!!
 
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I actually had to write an essay on this a few weeks ago, covers most of my points. It was rushed in lesson so no doubt GC is going to destroy me for something. :(

It's quite long so none of you will probably read it, but it covers some of my opinions on the matter.

You raise up some good points in this argument. I definitely agree with the fact that if you tax the rich more its a disincentive for them to stay in the country and do business there, so they they re-locate and this harms the economy.
I agree with all those points and a good argument is put forth..... nice read btw...
 
Not going to get involved in this, my few words will be this is a silly debate if you don't define capitalism and socialism. I don't think you should let wikipedia do the talking for you. By socialist do you mean North Korea? Sweden? Germany? Japan? UK? Any of these could qualify as socialist depending on your definition.

The capitalist world contains a wealthy regions that have achieved their status through conquest, colonialism, and slavery. Their head start enabled them to be the first industrial and financial centers, meaning the nations left behind simply became dependent nations used for their raw materials and cheap labor. The vast majority of the capitalist world lives in dire poverty, so it's rather silly to point to the wealthy banker in London as the reason why capitalism rocks, while ignoring the poor farmers in El Salvador. Or Haiti. Or any African country for that matter.

The notion that "Looking at every country that has ever tried leaning more towards socialist policy than capitalism policy they have always been far less successful" is equally absurd. Please stop making these ridiculous generalizations that involve 'every country ever.' Obviously the more free-market oriented policy choice has been the more successful one in many cases. Other times they haven't been. It depends on the unique situation of the time and place. Only people that live in the fantasy world of econ textbooks think that the most possible free-market oriented solution is the right on in every single case.

"Fundamentally it comes down to the fact that socialism won't allocate resources properly and we produce far less as a result, so while we may be equal, we're far worst off than we wouldn't be in a capitalistic system."

Define 'properly,' please. I don't think a banker properly should earn 7 figures a year while the Haitian who works harder should earn two. As far as 'producing far less,' if production was our only goal we could easily convert to a socialist economy of sorts (again, pick your definition of socialism, but this example doesn't have to be USSR style socialism) that focused entirely on industry and produced much more than a financial center such as Britain.

Would I rather be a wealthy person in the US than someone in Sweden? Yes, although research shows that happiness stops increasing at a certain income (trying to remember the study, I think it was 57,000 US dollars a year, this is for an American of course). Would I rather live in Sweden than be a poor person in the US? Certainly. Would I rather live in Sweden than in Haiti? India? Somalia? I'm going to take Sweden.
 
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Also, let's not forget that the most "socialist" period in American history (the world's capitalist paradise, right?) saw the greatest levels of prosperity and employment. From 1945-1971, the Bretton Woods era, real GDP growth was 5.76%. From 1971-2003, it was 0.31%. And of course the growth in the 90's and 00's was totally unsustainable, which is why we're in the midst of a depression.

On an unrelated note, this all has to do with what you value, which is why the debate is silly to begin with. I would rather live in a society that is good to everyone in it rather than one where a few get rich and there is a lot of technological innovation. My grandparents are fine without computers, and I don't think they or my parents missed out on anything in their childhood for not being addicted to FM and the internet.

Also, since socialism comes from Marx, we have to mention the fact that socialism is supposed to follow industrial capitalism, which never happened in any of the 'truly' socialist countries. They were all backwards agrarian societies barely out of feudalism. Also, care to explain why Russia has done so poorly over the past two decades? Why it is the second highest crime rates in the world? Why people are reminiscent for the Brezhnev years?

I found this article while googling something: not sure if it's any good or not but looks interesting. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-taxgrowth.htm
 
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Not going to get involved in this, my few words will be this is a silly debate if you don't define capitalism and socialism. I don't think you should let wikipedia do the talking for you. By socialist do you mean North Korea? Sweden? Germany? Japan? UK? Any of these could qualify as socialist depending on your definition.
I wasn't letting Wiki do the talking, I've taken nothing from there.

The capitalist world contains a wealthy regions that have achieved their status through conquest, colonialism, and slavery. Their head start enabled them to be the first industrial and financial centers, meaning the nations left behind simply became dependent nations used for their raw materials and cheap labor. The vast majority of the capitalist world lives in dire poverty, so it's rather silly to point to the wealthy banker in London as the reason why capitalism rocks, while ignoring the poor farmers in El Salvador. Or Haiti. Or any African country for that matter.
These country's have more pressing issues to see to than which economic system they adhere too, and you know it. I'll point you to China that was one of the poorest country's in the start of the '80's, as they've moved away from socialism and towards capitalistic and free market policies they're one of the major forces in the world economy.
The notion that "Looking at every country that has ever tried leaning more towards socialist policy than capitalism policy they have always been far less successful" is equally absurd. Please stop making these ridiculous generalizations that involve 'every country ever.' Obviously free-market oriented policies have been very successful in many cases. Other times they haven't been. It depends on the unique situation of the time and place. Only people that live in the fantasy world of econ textbooks think that the most possible free-market oriented solution is the right on in every single case.
Only people who live in the fantasy world of pseudo-economics come up with half the stuff you say. There's always going to be a mix of capitalism and socialism, if you're going to argue between the two then you take the two fundamental ideals
"Fundamentally it comes down to the fact that socialism won't allocate resources properly and we produce far less as a result, so while we may be equal, we're far worst off than we wouldn't be in a capitalistic system."

Define 'properly,' please. I don't think a banker properly should earn 7 figures a year while the Haitian who works harder should earn two. As far as 'producing far less,' if production was our only goal we could easily convert to a socialist economy of sorts (again, pick your definition of socialism, but this example doesn't have to be USSR style socialism) that focused entirely on industry and produced much more than a financial center such as Britain.
Won't allocate resources efficiently. And that banker who earns 7 figures pays 6 figures in tax, which provides a **** of a lot for society than your average person. Britain was actually a very strong manufacturing economy before the trade unions killed it, that is why we're a financial centre now. Production is our only goal, economic growth is defined as the increase in productive capacity. If your economy produces nothing, you make no money, if you have no money you have none to spread around anyway. But wait, let me guess, some of what I just wrote appears in economics textbooks so it's all false and my arguments suck, right?
[/quote] Won't allocate resources efficiently
Would I rather be a wealthy person in the US than someone in Sweden? Yes, although research shows that happiness stops increasing at a certain income (trying to remember the study, I think it was 57,000 US dollars a year, this is for an American of course). Would I rather live in Sweden than be a poor person in the US? Certainly. Would I rather live in Sweden than in Haiti? India? Somalia? I'm going to take Sweden.[/QUOTE]
Sweden has a welfare state that exists because of the capitalist economy driving it. Sweden is just as capitalist as the rest of Europe. Again, stop using poor country's as argument. Would you rather live in capitalist Haiti or socialist Haiti? The difference is negligible.
 
I wasn't letting Wiki do the talking, I've taken nothing from there.


These country's have more pressing issues to see to than which economic system they adhere too, and you know it. I'll point you to China that was one of the poorest country's in the start of the '80's, as they've moved away from socialism and towards capitalistic and free market policies they're one of the major forces in the world economy.

But what's the point of starting a debate if you don't define the terms of the debate?

China in 1949 was a backwards feudal society. I would expect it to start growing like crazy when it started to industrialize.

Only people who live in the fantasy world of pseudo-economics come up with half the stuff you say. There's always going to be a mix of capitalism and socialism, if you're going to argue between the two then you take the two fundamental ideals

No, I would say most people in history or political science that look at historical and real-world examples rather than math and abstract models think that most economists these days are full of ****. There's plenty of people that think like me, and we've seen a huge backlash in academia against the discipline of economics already in the past two years or so.

Well if there's always going to be a mix between the two than we're on the same page. But I certainly wouldn't want to live in a 'purely' capitalist country unless I was one of the very few wealthy. Without "socialist" principles incorporated into the economy, the vast majority of the population lives in poverty. This is what the western world looked like before World War II. Since we've incorporated a larger state and created 'welfare societies,' the standard of living for the populace as a whole has rised drastically. Sure, you didn't get the huge billionaire magnates in the Bretton Woods era like you did during the Gilded Age (1870-1929), but the vast majority of the population was much better off.

Won't allocate resources efficiently. And that banker who earns 7 figures pays 6 figures in tax, which provides a **** of a lot for society than your average person. Britain was actually a very strong manufacturing economy before the trade unions killed it, that is why we're a financial centre now. Production is our only goal, economic growth is defined as the increase in productive capacity. If your economy produces nothing, you make no money, if you have no money you have none to spread around anyway. But wait, let me guess, some of what I just wrote appears in economics textbooks so it's all false and my arguments suck, right?

As far as the banker goes, you're assuming that the financial activity is sustainable and good for the economy in the long-run, and clearly, both the US and UK went through unsustainable asset bubbles in the 90's and 00's. Don't think in terms of what the banker 'does' for society, that's a poor way to think of it (although if we do want to take that route, the banker does nothing for society, he pushes paper, and sure he pays more taxes, but I thought you think that's useless, and second, he benefits from a society and government that allows him to make that money ultimately at their expense). Think of the different type of society and economy that allows a banker to make that wealth, and whether or not it is sustainable in the long run.

Sweden has a welfare state that exists because of the capitalist economy driving it. Sweden is just as capitalist as the rest of Europe. Again, stop using poor country's as argument. Would you rather live in capitalist Haiti or socialist Haiti? The difference is negligible.

I wouldn't call Sweden "just as capitalist" as the rest of Europe, considering its tax rates. But as I've said before, it sounds like a nice place to live and the Scandinavian countries have the highest measures of well-being in the world. But certainly Sweden would be a nightmare scenario for you, wouldn't it? The high taxes for the wealthy? The healthcare system? The huge state? Also, it's not successful because of the capitalist economy driving it, its successful because of its resources and the success of its industries. That's why the capitalist economy driving Haiti isn't doing too well.

Why can't we bring in poor countries into the discussion? The vast majority of the world is poor, so why are we only allowed to use the few examples you want? Let's compare Cuba to El Salvador, for example...despite the trade embargoes and the amazing amounts of difficulty it faced from transforming its 1950's planatation US-dependent economy, it has the second best healthcare and education systems behind Costa Rica. I would way rather live in Cuba than in El Salvador, and I would way rather live in Cuba now than before the revolution (unless I was one of the small number of extremely wealthy American elites there). As far as Haiti goes, Haiti will probably be poor no matter what, but would it be better off if it was more "socialist?" We don't know. Would it be better off if it used the most free-market oriented policies humanly possible? We don't know, but judging by what you've said, you think so, because "the most free-market oriented solution is always best," right?
 
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