Carragher to focus on Liverpool

[Scott]

Square pegs in round holes etc. etc. But Lampard doesn't track back sufficiently well. If you get chance, review the England vs Egypt match and then notice the difference when Carrick comes on for Lampard.

Carricks **** though. Lampard isnt Carrick. If capello doesnt play him to his stregthens you can hardly blame him.

So immense that Capello persuaded Carragher to come out of retirement rather than select Dawson for the initial 23 man squad? That's on the back of his best ever season apparantly. I'll stick to my judgement of him - decent defender of the classic English stopper mould but nothing special even now. I know he's a bit of a cult hero for you Spuds, but I'm just saying what I've seen of him. If he were better than he is, I'd be sure to give him credit (like I do for King and Woodgate).

so impressive, he has been touted by Fabio as a 1st team fixture in the Euros Qualifiers. now.

I think your find the only reason Jamie went was his ablity to be cover for Johnson at right back, not his amazing contribuation at CB.

 

[Zebedee]

Carricks **** though. Lampard isnt Carrick. If capello doesnt play him to his stregthens you can hardly blame him.

Carrick does his job. Lampard doesn't. Several managers have tried to get Lampard to do his job, but he consistently fails in a two man midfield. Lampard has no sense of the right or wrong time to get forward. You can mask it by playing two central midfielders who'll do his donkey work and try to avoid clogging up the space behind a lone striker, but you'd think he'd have learnt a bit of nous by now. Capello should have dropped him to the bench, why he didn't remains a mystery to me. Well, not so much a mystery as an indication of some players, for whatever reason, being 'undroppable'.

so impressive, he has been touted by Fabio as a 1st team fixture in the Euros Qualifiers. now.

I believe the exact phrase that Capello used (as reported by Dawson) was "to keep it up and [I'll] be watching you for a place in the Euros". Not quite the same thing is it? "Hi Michael, you've just had the best season of your life but I still think you're a worse player than Upson and Carragher, and you're a long way behind Terry, Ferdinand and King. Not to worry though, if things go totally **** up and Bruno cripples six other players, you may eventually get capped" is not touting someone as a "1st team fixture in the Euros Qualifiers".

I think your find the only reason Jamie went was his ablity to be cover for Johnson at right back, not his amazing contribuation at CB.

First choice replacement for King ahead of, erm, Upson and Dawson. Odd that.

 

[The Shots]

This should be interestion? :S

 

[Mike.]

Carrick does his job. Lampard doesn't. Several managers have tried to get Lampard to do his job, but he consistently fails in a two man midfield. Lampard has no sense of the right or wrong time to get forward. You can mask it by playing two central midfielders who'll do his donkey work and try to avoid clogging up the space behind a lone striker, but you'd think he'd have learnt a bit of nous by now. Capello should have dropped him to the bench, why he didn't remains a mystery to me. Well, not so much a mystery as an indication of some players, for whatever reason, being 'undroppable'.



I believe the exact phrase that Capello used (as reported by Dawson) was "to keep it up and [I'll] be watching you for a place in the Euros". Not quite the same thing is it? "Hi Michael, you've just had the best season of your life but I still think you're a worse player than Upson and Carragher, and you're a long way behind Terry, Ferdinand and King. Not to worry though, if things go totally **** up and Bruno cripples six other players, you may eventually get capped" is not touting someone as a "1st team fixture in the Euros Qualifiers".



First choice replacement for King ahead of, erm, Upson and Dawson. Odd that.

lampard isnt a central midfield imo, he has hardly any defensive positioning. better than gerrard, but thats not saying much. i think capello gets hamstrung by the fact that barry is half fit, and carrick is utterly out of form

 

[Jack Fulham]

yeah. re: smalling, it was obvious that the pressure around moving to united affected him. hopefully he'll develop better out of the limelight a little

Chris Smalling was like that before he moved to United, he was actually very good on the ball for us from what i saw, it's just a shame he has no left foot.

Carrick does his job. Lampard doesn't. Several managers have tried to get Lampard to do his job, but he consistently fails in a two man midfield. Lampard has no sense of the right or wrong time to get forward. You can mask it by playing two central midfielders who'll do his donkey work and try to avoid clogging up the space behind a lone striker, but you'd think he'd have learnt a bit of nous by now. Capello should have dropped him to the bench, why he didn't remains a mystery to me. Well, not so much a mystery as an indication of some players, for whatever reason, being 'undroppable'.

Lampard had the luxury of Essien/Ballack/Obi Mikel behind him to the all the tackling when at Chelsea so he's never to exposed. That is the kind of player we lack at England at the moment, personally, I'd like to see a fit again Lee Cattermole enter the England set up to fill in that role, whether he can step up to International football is a question though because he has just missed a season of development.

 

[TheHig]

What? You are an idiot.

He has lost his legs, he never had bags of pace any but now he seems to have lost another yard, and he is not overly strong or tall to compensate.
Skrtel and Agger are now more effective as CB for Liverpool.

 

[Zebedee]

lampard isnt a central midfield imo, he has hardly any defensive positioning. better than gerrard, but thats not saying much. i think capello gets hamstrung by the fact that barry is half fit, and carrick is utterly out of form

Lampard is the definition of a box-to-box midfielder who thinks that one box is the opposition half and the other is the opposition penalty area.

He's quality when he doesn't have defensive obligations but look at the German counterattacks against England - there's no excuse not to track back. For one of the goals, he does just stop and complain to the referee. That's inexcusable in schoolboy football. On the other side of the coin, he also scored. So I guess it's the judgement call of whether the goal he'll get you will be more decisive than the couple of goals he'll cost you.

Gerrard's defensive positioning in the centre isn't really poor - what lets him down when he's played there now is his **** poor passing. Always looking for the direct ball onto goal. Rarely, rarely succeeds. Gerrard's defensive positioning when played on the left wing is another thing altogether.

Think a lot under-rate the work Carrick does and scapegoat him a bit to be honest. He's not Alonso, but he is a kind of Alonso-lite in keeping play ticking over and helps to retain possession. Not particularly flashy a lot of the time and so doesn't draw the eye. But he does provide balance to teams which are focused on throwing large numbers forward.

 

[Carine]

Lampard is the definition of a box-to-box midfielder who thinks that one box is the opposition half and the other is the opposition penalty area.

He's quality when he doesn't have defensive obligations but look at the German counterattacks against England - there's no excuse not to track back. For one of the goals, he does just stop and complain to the referee. That's inexcusable in schoolboy football. On the other side of the coin, he also scored. So I guess it's the judgement call of whether the goal he'll get you will be more decisive than the couple of goals he'll cost you.

Gerrard's defensive positioning in the centre isn't really poor - what lets him down when he's played there now is his **** poor passing. Always looking for the direct ball onto goal. Rarely, rarely succeeds. Gerrard's defensive positioning when played on the left wing is another thing altogether.

Think a lot under-rate the work Carrick does and scapegoat him a bit to be honest. He's not Alonso, but he is a kind of Alonso-lite in keeping play ticking over and helps to retain possession. Not particularly flashy a lot of the time and so doesn't draw the eye. But he does provide balance to teams which are focused on throwing large numbers forward.

This is exactly why England should have played 4-5-1 or a variant of.

 

[Scott]

Carrick does his job. Lampard doesn't. Several managers have tried to get Lampard to do his job, but he consistently fails in a two man midfield. Lampard has no sense of the right or wrong time to get forward. You can mask it by playing two central midfielders who'll do his donkey work and try to avoid clogging up the space behind a lone striker, but you'd think he'd have learnt a bit of nous by now. Capello should have dropped him to the bench, why he didn't remains a mystery to me. Well, not so much a mystery as an indication of some players, for whatever reason, being 'undroppable'.



I believe the exact phrase that Capello used (as reported by Dawson) was "to keep it up and [I'll] be watching you for a place in the Euros". Not quite the same thing is it? "Hi Michael, you've just had the best season of your life but I still think you're a worse player than Upson and Carragher, and you're a long way behind Terry, Ferdinand and King. Not to worry though, if things go totally **** up and Bruno cripples six other players, you may eventually get capped" is not touting someone as a "1st team fixture in the Euros Qualifiers".



First choice replacement for King ahead of, erm, Upson and Dawson. Odd that.

Well Frank didnt get 30 odd goals this season by not doing his job did he? If he did that, not doing his job, he would be the best player ever.

Undroppable, i would help so, he was the best english player last season by a long way( that includes Rooney) he was also our best attacking player against Germany. So yeah drop him.

You think After King injuries and Terrys "press conference" Capello will touch them again. He has spoke of revampng the squad, dawson will be the start of that.

Funny that, i could of swore Carragher only started one game and played 45mnutes in another. Maybe Fabio realised what a mistake he made.

Granted Upson was the wrong choice against Germany, but Carrgher would of faired no better, the only defender(s) In england who could of kept up with that front line, would have to be quick, agile and compused, not really Carraghers attributes.

 

[Ride The Walrus]

Well Frank didnt get 30 odd goals this season by not doing his job did he? If he did that, not doing his job, he would be the best player ever.

Undroppable, i would help so, he was the best english player last season by a long way( that includes Rooney) he was also our best attacking player against Germany. So yeah drop him.

You think After King injuries and Terrys "press conference" Capello will touch them again. He has spoke of revampng the squad, dawson will be the start of that.

Funny that, i could of swore Carragher only started one game and played 45mnutes in another. Maybe Fabio realised what a mistake he made.

Granted Upson was the wrong choice against Germany, but Carrgher would of faired no better, the only defender(s) In england who could of kept up with that front line, would have to be quick, agile and compused, not really Carraghers attributes.

No, he got suspended...

 

[Scott]

No, he got suspended...

for all 360 minutes england where involved?

Thought not

could of played against Germany

 

[Zebedee]

Well Frank didnt get 30 odd goals this season by not doing his job did he? If he did that, not doing his job, he would be the best player ever.

If you can't tell the difference between the team function of a midfielder in a two man midfield and the team function of an attacking midfielder in a three man midfield, then you should call it a day

Undroppable, i would help so, he was the best english player last season by a long way( that includes Rooney) he was also our best attacking player against Germany. So yeah drop him.

That makes no sense given how England play. Not sure he was the 'best attacking player'. He scored when England were totally dominant in the game, but was also caught out of position in all the matches and in almost every opposition attack. Once is unfortunate, twice is careless, more than that is darned incompetent.

You think After King injuries and Terrys "press conference" Capello will touch them again. He has spoke of revampng the squad, dawson will be the start of that.

I doubt very many of the current squad will be around the England scene much longer. Age plays a role in decision making for future building.

Funny that, i could of swore Carragher only started one game and played 45mnutes in another. Maybe Fabio realised what a mistake he made.

Still didn't play Dawson after his 'best ever season'...

Granted Upson was the wrong choice against Germany, but Carrgher would of faired no better, the only defender(s) In england who could of kept up with that front line, would have to be quick, agile and compused, not really Carraghers attributes.

First two goals came from individual mistakes by Upson and Terry. Second pair of goals came from the counter when England were caught upfield (also from individual errors by midfield players). The errors by Upson and Terry are not ones Carragher is prone to, but then he is prone to making last ditch tackles when done for pace which means that too high a defensive line leaves him exposed which is where I'll agree with you.

 

[Scott]

Just to clear something up Zeb,

Where you in the England Dressing Room or Training pitch?

Just wondering how you knew Franks Insrtuctions, Seems you knew he didnt do his job, but how do you know what Fabio set him to do.

Do you think the Great Carrgher would of made the next squad if he was available? or do you think Fabio would of realised what a mistake i made.

tbh i am glad paul scholes stuck to his Guns, and said No. god he could of embarrased himself by being shown up by an american striker who only scored one goal in 12 months.

 

[Zebedee]

Just to clear something up Zeb,

Where you in the England Dressing Room or Training pitch?

Just wondering how you knew Franks Insrtuctions, Seems you knew he didnt do his job, but how do you know what Fabio set him to do.

Watch the last two German goals and tell me about Lampard's tracking back. Then I guess we'll have a basis for an informed discussion.

Do you think the Great Carrgher would of made the next squad if he was available? or do you think Fabio would of realised what a mistake i made.

Given Carra will be two years older for the Euros and four years older for the next World Cup, the answer would seem to be there. Personally, as I said earlier in this thread, I think Carra is declining. But even in his decline Capello rated him more highly than Dawson at his current peak which is the point you seem unable to accept in spite of Dawson not making the initial 23 man squad and not getting a game whatsoever. In fact, Dawson has not even been capped by Capello in a friendly and has appeared solely in England Select XIs

tbh i am glad paul scholes stuck to his Guns, and said No. god he could of embarrased himself by being shown up by an american striker who only scored one goal in 12 months.

Scholes now offers something completely different to how he plays than he did when he had the legs to make late runs into the box. Even then, he rarely left you short on the break as evidenced by his collection of abysmal tackles throughout his career. You'd know that having watched your team over the past few years though.

 

[Scott]

What would you of had Lampard do then at 2-1 down in a knock out game, sat back and left the strike force isolated? not tryed to make something happen? i just wondering would you rather accept a 2-1 defeat then go for it,, and lose 4-1.

Please dont tell me, you think Dawson is in his Prime? The fact is Capello picked his squad on former glories, rather than there ablity now. It would be criminal to pretect the Old Guard surely? It shows, Scholes and Hargeaves he made desperate attempts to get into the squad, Heskey, Upson, Carragher there where better performers England then there

Just becuase Capello went crazy under the pressure and made several bad calls, doesnt mean Carrgher should of gone to the World cup, If sven did this, he be labelled Senial.

 

[Zebedee]

What would you of had Lampard do then at 2-1 down in a knock out game, sat back and left the strike force isolated? not tryed to make something happen? i just wondering would you rather accept a 2-1 defeat then go for it,, and lose 4-1.

I'd rather that my central midfielder would track back as soon as possession is lost rather than waste a valuable half second whining to the ref and never getting the chance to make the cover tackle for a team mate's mistake or even worse having a temper tantrum on the halfway line when possession is lost and so be totally behind play. You of course feel that not behaving like a petulant five year old who's lost his teddy is leaving the strike force isolated. I don't see the validity of your argument, but good luck with it.

If you didn't see the match, Germany scored their third goal with 23 minutes to go (not including stoppage time).

Please dont tell me, you think Dawson is in his Prime? The fact is Capello picked his squad on former glories, rather than there ablity now. It would be criminal to pretect the Old Guard surely? It shows, Scholes and Hargeaves he made desperate attempts to get into the squad, Heskey, Upson, Carragher there where better performers England then there

Haven't got a clue what you're on about or how relevant it is. I think I've expressed myself very clearly and with little room for confusion so not keen on addressing strawman arguments. Carragher got the nod ahead of Dawson. Upson got the nod ahead of Dawson. Dawson, according to everyone who watches the Spuds regularly, has had the season of his life. Not even a cap in a friendly match so far. Will that change? I think it probably will because of the ages and injuries to those who have been ahead of him. He may well shine. He may well continue to improve. Good luck to him. But right now, if someone offered me my pick of two between Ferdinand, Terry, Dawson, Carragher and Upson, Dawson would be last on the list. And if I could wave a magic wand and cure King and Woodgate, he'd be behind them too.

Just becuase Capello went crazy under the pressure and made several bad calls, doesnt mean Carrgher should of gone to the World cup, If sven did this, he be labelled Senial.

Proof positive that for some, players win matches while managers only lose them. I don't think it was Capello's game plan for Lampard, Gerrard, Heskey, Rooney and Lennon to be holding hands in the opposition's D during almost every attack. Could be wrong though I guess.

 

[Mike.]

Being 2-1 down doesnt mean you abandon all sense like lampard did. Scott what about patiently playing your way back in from 2-1, not scrabbling forward at every opportunity, and then leaving the side wide open on the counter?

Proof positive that for some, players win matches while managers only lose them. I don't think it was Capello's game plan for Lampard, Gerrard, Heskey, Rooney and Lennon to be holding hands in the opposition's D during almost every attack. Could be wrong though I guess.

Zebedeei remember at one point on the attack we had all 6 of them within 30 yards on each other, where is the width, we made the attacks so easy to defend

in my opinion the two players in central midfield must show composure on the ball, positional awareness, defensive solidity. In a lot of ways the partnership needs the same qualities that you would want in the two 'holders' in a 4231. lampard showed some amount on the first part, but none of the latter two. and we paid for it

 

[Scott]

Validy of my reasoning, Your so Pro Gerrard your trying to pin stuff on Lampard, Just like every other liverpool fan you fail to see Gerrard was pure dog ***** against Germany, englands worst attacking player. Of course you say,, "he tried to make something happen" blah blah blah, but the reality is, all he tried to do was Shoot. He made little key passes if Any what so ever. So blame Lampards Lack of tracking back in the 67th minute, when we where 2-1 down. This isnt Fm where you only need to have a player stay forward once to score. It takes longer then an actual minute, for a change in mentality to work.


Dawson did have the best 6 months of his life, He was better then all the CB who went for england in that Prem Season. Just cause Fabio hadnt the balls to play him. Doesnt mean **** all, apart from the big decisions where bottled.

Well he took them players, It makes me laugh that he didnt take Walcott becuase he cuts inside and doesnt stay wide. then Played a CM on the Left and Played SWP( who is *****). So he took the players knowing what they where capable and like, it is like anything in life. You take a player knowing his tendancies as a player.

I use Cricket as an example to illustrate this, so theres no confusion.
If England selected Craig Kieswetter for the test match series, knowing he is an aggressive, risk taking batsmen. They then couldnt have ago at him, for going out playing an attackive shot surely the same applys with Capello playing Gerrard on the left. and Lampard in CM, there playing there games, and if they didnt suit the tactic/idea he had, maybe he should drop them or change it,

[COLOR=#00e0]---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------[/COLOR]

Being 2-1 down doesnt mean you abandon all sense like lampard did. Scott what about patiently playing your way back in from 2-1, not scrabbling forward at every opportunity, and then leaving the side wide open on the counter?

I am sure that made sense in your head, but Of the top of my head, wasnt germany Third goal a counter from a free kick taken by lampard, 30ish yards out, didnt he appeal for handball, not get it, then chased back further then the man who lost the rebound, and actually was in our box when the shot was taken, not 100% on that, pretty sure though Frank made more of an attemp then others.

and the 4th, Gerrard passing the ball to the germans, mis placed meant for lampard inside the Germany box? Then a big kick forward put Ozil in, beating Barry for pace, then passing across to someone else, so you expect lampard to get from the germans box to our box in what 8 secs, World record pace.

Good work there, that possible, can defo see it was his fault for the goals.

 

[Zebedee]

Zebedeei remember at one point on the attack we had all 6 of them within 30 yards on each other, where is the width, we made the attacks so easy to defend

That's what I'm referring too. No shape at all to attack. It was like watching a kids kick about at times where everyone was chasing the ball. Ok, being harsh, but these are supposedly world class professionals and I'm not having it that all of a sudden Capello went loopy and went from being one of the best managers in the world to someone who couldn't manage a pub team.

 

[Dunc]

All in all, Carragher is not of an international standard anymore, and is by far past his best.

Time to bleed in the young uns.