Euro 2012 Match Discussion Thread

[insanity]

@Joel
I disagree that revenue = quality and progress. This is not business, this is football. Good marketing and comerce does not mean that the league is the top one or the most quality one. And I agree that Seria A declined, but not this year. Seria A this year was one of the most interesting leagues with the highest quality and you can see this clearly resulting the national team. Juventus brough some top noche players to the squad - Buffon, Bonnuci, Pirlo, Cheillini, Barzagli, Marcisio.

I am not ******** about grammar, but I am wondering if we understand each other when giving the definition proactive football.

@Mike
RVP is indeed an over rated player in my oppinion. I hope Juve does not buy him, he will be their worst transfer for years and Juve are famous for making stupıd transfers. I will tell you why. Do you remember Henry an Aresenal player again? Do you remember what he did in EPL? Well guess what the same never happend in La Liga and it was not because Henry played worse, in fact he did well for Barca, but the difference is in the quality of the center backs. While in England the center backs are still tight marking and very often man marking and chasing the forwards to the touchline (Henry's case) or deep (RVPs case) in a lot of other leagues this just does not happen. From there comes the effectivness of the deep or the advanced forwards in EPL. However this is just my oppinion and my understanding of the game - you can have your own. But the last World Cup and this EU cup shows that RVP is not anything special as he is shown in the media. One can blame Shneider for Netherlands, but then if you blame him you have to blame their coach for linking him with a deep forward like RVP rather than more complete one like Huntelaar. Yet again I stand by what I said - Huntelaar is the better choice for Netherlands than RVP in case you have number 10 like Shneider.

I would not call Germans plan reactive - playing defensive football does not mean you are reactive. The only match I remember them being reactive was their lose against Spain in the World Cup.

Italy's own approach was not reactive at all. They have been playing this system for some time. Italy are in fact the most proactive team in this championship. Comming with 2 different systems that they can apply against different formation, but both of them being very similar in style, having a squad in which you can exchange roles - Maggio the wingback, Abate the full back for example. A reactive approach would be if you would chose Abate to play as a wingback or Maggio as a fullback, because you are forced to do so. Yet using De Rossi, who played earlıer in the year as CD, migh be called a reactive approach if Barzagli was not injured. Then you would be credible to say that they intentionally used a "false defender" (what a ****, didnt know that a covering CB, turned out a Libero because De Rossi is good with the ball, something not seen in EPL I guess, is a falce defender) against a "false 9", but Barzagli was injured otherwise he would be playing the covering role and the De Rossi would have been used in mid instead of Motta I guess. Idk how much my posts are credible, but your last one was not at all.

Yet what actually makes an opinion credible? It is not that you can actually quote someone and make it sound academic when we are speaking about football.

 

[Mike.]

@Joel
I disagree that revenue = quality and progress. This is not business, this is football. Good marketing and comerce does not mean that the league is the top one or the most quality one. And I agree that Seria A declined, but not this year. Seria A this year was one of the most interesting leagues with the highest quality and you can see this clearly resulting the national team. Juventus brough some top noche players to the squad - Buffon, Bonnuci, Pirlo, Cheillini, Barzagli, Marcisio.

I am not ******** about grammar, but I am wondering if we understand each other when giving the definition proactive football.

@Mike
RVP is indeed an over rated player in my oppinion. I hope Juve does not buy him, he will be their worst transfer for years and Juve are famous for making stupıd transfers. I will tell you why. Do you remember Henry an Aresenal player again? Do you remember what he did in EPL? Well guess what the same never happend in La Liga and it was not because Henry played worse, in fact he did well for Barca, but the difference is in the quality of the center backs. While in England the center backs are still tight marking and very often man marking and chasing the forwards to the touchline (Henry's case) or deep (RVPs case) in a lot of other leagues this just does not happen. From there comes the effectivness of the deep or the advanced forwards in EPL. However this is just my oppinion and my understanding of the game - you can have your own. But the last World Cup and this EU cup shows that RVP is not anything special as he is shown in the media. One can blame Shneider for Netherlands, but then if you blame him you have to blame their coach for linking him with a deep forward like RVP rather than more complete one like Huntelaar. Yet again I stand by what I said - Huntelaar is the better choice for Netherlands than RVP in case you have number 10 like Shneider.

I would not call Germans plan reactive - playing defensive football does not mean you are reactive. The only match I remember them being reactive was their lose against Spain in the World Cup.

Italy's own approach was not reactive at all. They have been playing this system for some time. Italy are in fact the most proactive team in this championship. Comming with 2 different systems that they can apply against different formation, but both of them being very similar in style, having a squad in which you can exchange roles - Maggio the wingback, Abate the full back for example. A reactive approach would be if you would chose Abate to play as a wingback or Maggio as a fullback, because you are forced to do so. Yet using De Rossi, who played earlıer in the year as CD, migh be called a reactive approach if Barzagli was not injured. Then you would be credible to say that they intentionally used a "false defender" (what a ****, didnt know that a covering CB, turned out a Libero because De Rossi is good with the ball, something not seen in EPL I guess, is a falce defender) against a "false 9", but Barzagli was injured otherwise he would be playing the covering role and the De Rossi would have been used in mid instead of Motta I guess. Idk how much my posts are credible, but your last one was not at all.

Yet what actually makes an opinion credible? It is not that you can actually quote someone and make it sound academic when we are speaking about football.

Omg you actually talk nonsense. Italy are not the proactive team for one thing, that falls to Spain, because every other side has been forced to adapt to their style. Italy changed their shape before the match to deliberately combat Spain, that is being reactive. If they were being proactive, they would have maintained their own style of play and tried to force Spain to play into Italys way.

You also talk nonsense about Henry. He was a completely different player when he arrived in England, a far cry from the complete forward he became in his prime. He tore all sorts of teams in apart for Arsenal, both in the league, and in Europe, against Italian, Spanish, French, German defences. Despite starting to be past his prime in Barcelona, he still did the same, so you first point is null and void. How you can use that as argument to say RVP is over-rated is ridiculous, because its not even a direct comparison, dont talk nonsense. Holland's problems had nothing to with the decision of RVP or Huntelaar. The side had no shape, attacking or defensively. The midfield duo of De Jong and Van bommel, couldn't create a stable platform for Sneidjer, and they didnt create the box (the integral part of the 4-2-3-1 defensive shape) to protect their back four. Afellay and Robben, were sloppy and lacking in work rate, and predictable in attack, that is why they failed, as shown up massively in the portugal game.

And you still havent actually created a real argument as to why RVP is over-rated. You have yet to offer an actual break down of his play style that makes him over-rated.

I never once said that reactive is defensive, but Germanys football was reactive, they were a lethal counter attacking side, they are reacting to the oppostions attacks; right up until they face the one side who never over commit in attack - Spain. The reason they lost is because they couldnt react, Spain got the early goal and never got too many men forwards and over commited, there was no attack for them to counter. That is when they began to become the all round side they are now.

False defender is simply a a play on words i used to describe how De Rossi (And liberos have been seen in the prem) played. As a libero he was stepping up into the play and denying that a area. a libero is a " false defender" because he doesnt simply carry out same duties as a standard central defender, there is much more to his game, he is part midfielder in some of his actions, which is easy for a player like De Rossi since he is actually a midfielder.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06...pain-start-with-no-striker-italy-use-a-3-5-2/

 

[Joel`]

@Joel
I disagree that revenue = quality and progress. This is not business, this is football. Good marketing and comerce does not mean that the league is the top one or the most quality one. And I agree that Seria A declined, but not this year. Seria A this year was one of the most interesting leagues with the highest quality and you can see this clearly resulting the national team. Juventus brough some top noche players to the squad - Buffon, Bonnuci, Pirlo, Cheillini, Barzagli, Marcisio.

You still need a good product to market. If the EPL is so poor, why has it produced 3 winners, 6 runners up since 2005 in the CL? If you're so against how England played this tournament, you must have adored Inter's 2010 win as well. As proactive as a team can be, what was the Jose quote on that run? "I'd rather us not have the ball because it causes us lose to position" - Paraphrasing. Why do hordes of players speak of their desire or respect for the league, and foreign players flock to the league, arguably a cause of England's international failures.

An opinion is credible when it isn't oozing in bias.

 

[ajt09]

Bottom line is, players from Europe have come to PL, they've become better players, then in some cases gone to some the biggest clubs in the world like Barca, Real Madrid. IF that's not proof of how much English football is improved, well.....I've just wasted goddam 30 seconds typing this. Sicking of hearing this Anti-England anti-PL bollocks. It's completely wrong, and obviously totally flawed in every sense. Just deal with it ffs and stop spouting ****

 

[Tyton]

Seria A this year was one of the most interesting leagues with the highest quality

Yeah, then it turned out people have been fixing games...again.

I've been following Serie A since the early 90s but with amount of rubbish it has been involved lately, no amount of psychobabble is going to convince me to waste one spare moment to even look at it in next 10 years.

 

[Lol_101]

Yeah, then it turned out people have been fixing games...again.

I've been following Serie A since the early 90s but with amount of rubbish it has been involved lately, no amount of psychobabble is going to convince me to waste one spare moment to even look at it in next 10 years.

The latest scandal is only related to Seria B clubs, and is much evil than the one when Juventus got stripped both titles and got demoted.

But Seria A isn't a close to EPL standard. Far different style between both leagues.

 

[insanity]

@Mike
Mike, but it was Italy that were holding the ball and comfortable with the 3-5-2 they did not actually fall into the Spain's tiki-taka. I am not sure if Italy were not the team holding the ball the most against Spain. Spain actually had to react to Italy's tactic for example Alba not moving forward in order to cover the forwards and the team going out with 2 defensive mids. In the same article you linked it is shown that the Spanish def mids have been the most influental players. Although Italy's main formation was the diamond, they also have played the 3-5-2 before. They chosed to play 3-5-2, not forced to play it, they tried to apply their style, they were not forced to get narrow and defend (well after the 70th minute they did actually), so I completely disagree that they were reacting. And again I am sure if Barzagli was available he would have played the covering role while Bonucci being the regista (the ball playing def) and Pirlo and De Rossi dropping deep to take the ball.

Joel, I agree that EPL is a good product. Players might talk stuff, but the main factor is the money,reputation and because if you do not play in Barca or Real you might not win anything in La Liga (players want to win stuff), while Germany is not very popular and the Italian clubs are poor right now. I loved how Inter won the UCL actually and there is a HUGE difference between both styles. England were forced to play so (started with relatively normal d-line and moved to deep, started with a quick attacking mentality changed over the time to defensive not even counter-attacking, started wide but ended narrow), while Inter wanted to play so.

Tyton, I can see how long you have been watching Seria... your information is so correct. I am watching Seria A since 89 actually. And you will be forced to watch Juve dominating UCL this season (if they get a quality forward).

 

[slbenficacoach]

The portuguese and italian refereeing teams are 2 of the 3 possibilities to referee the Euro's final...
The other one is the english team, with Howard Webb.

Seeing that 2 of the semi-finalists are the Portuguese and Italian team, having 2 out of 3 possiblities pointing into the elimination of both of these nations is quite... fishy.

Oh well, UEFA will be UEFA. I just hope Mr Platini doesn't get the final he wants

 

[Mike.]

The portuguese and italian refereeing teams are 2 of the 3 possibilities to referee the Euro's final...
The other one is the english team, with Howard Webb.

Seeing that 2 of the semi-finalists are the Portuguese and Italian team, having 2 out of 3 possiblities pointing into the elimination of both of these nations is quite... fishy.

Oh well, UEFA will be UEFA. I just hope Mr Platini doesn't get the final he wants

Then Webb will referee it. I'm pretty sure it cannot be a ref from the same country as one of the teams. in fairness, he's probably been the best of the bunch. And he wont let the game get slowed down by "tactical falling", as we can describe it.

 

[Mike.]

@Mike
Mike, but it was Italy that were holding the ball and comfortable with the 3-5-2 they did not actually fall into the Spain's tiki-taka. I am not sure if Italy were not the team holding the ball the most against Spain. Spain actually had to react to Italy's tactic for example Alba not moving forward in order to cover the forwards and the team going out with 2 defensive mids. In the same article you linked it is shown that the Spanish def mids have been the most influental players. Although Italy's main formation was the diamond, they also have played the 3-5-2 before. They chosed to play 3-5-2, not forced to play it, they tried to apply their style, they were not forced to get narrow and defend (well after the 70th minute they did actually), so I completely disagree that they were reacting. And again I am sure if Barzagli was available he would have played the covering role while Bonucci being the regista (the ball playing def) and Pirlo and De Rossi dropping deep to take the ball.

Joel, I agree that EPL is a good product. Players might talk stuff, but the main factor is the money,reputation and because if you do not play in Barca or Real you might not win anything in La Liga (players want to win stuff), while Germany is not very popular and the Italian clubs are poor right now. I loved how Inter won the UCL actually and there is a HUGE difference between both styles. England were forced to play so (started with relatively normal d-line and moved to deep, started with a quick attacking mentality changed over the time to defensive not even counter-attacking, started wide but ended narrow), while Inter wanted to play so.

Tyton, I can see how long you have been watching Seria... your information is so correct. I am watching Seria A since 89 actually. And you will be forced to watch Juve dominating UCL this season (if they get a quality forward).

I never said Italy were not comfortable with their alternative. They can play the 3-5-2 well, they wouldnt have played it otherwise. But if you re-watch the game, and listen to Prandelli's words, the formation was about countering Spains style of play. That is reacting. It very nearly won them the game, it created some very good play, but they reacted to Spain with their own tactical game plan. And there is nothing wrong with that, in fact its what I love about Italian football, and why i have watched it for 18 years. But it's still reactive. Reactive isnt a bad thing, im not sure why you are so adverse to it. They even made sure the pitch wasn't watered. Barzagli would have done the same job if fit, but the whole change, was reacting to Spain. Otherwise they would have stayed with the diamond. They went to an alternative because they didnt feel their primary game was up for it, that is reactive.

 

[slbenficacoach]

He probably will, but don't you agree that is is a bit odd?
I know it can't be a referee from Portugal or Italy, in case one or even both reach the finals. But it's a matter of transparency IMO.

Then Webb will referee it. I'm pretty sure it cannot be a ref from the same country as one of the teams. in fairness, he's probably been the best of the bunch. And he wont let the game get slowed down by "tactical falling", as we can describe it.

 

[Mike.]

He probably will, but don't you agree that is is a bit odd?
I know it can't be a referee from Portugal or Italy, in case one or even both reach the finals. But it's a matter of transparency IMO.

Its not odd. The pool of refs have been the same throughout, refs have been ruled out based on peformance. If portugal had been knocked out, you wouldnt have noticed.

 

[Joel`]

@Mike
Joel, I agree that EPL is a good product. Players might talk stuff, but the main factor is the money,reputation and because if you do not play in Barca or Real you might not win anything in La Liga (players want to win stuff), while Germany is not very popular and the Italian clubs are poor right now.

So players only go to the EPL because the alternatives aren't good enough, by your own criteria. In other words, it's the best/second best league. Do you actually think before you type, or are you just trolling?

 

[ajt09]

So players only go to the EPL because the alternatives aren't good enough, by your own criteria. In other words, it's the best/second best league. Do you actually think before you type, or are you just trolling?

I suspect the latter. No-one (except my senior moments) can be that silly tbh

 

[Lol_101]

So players only go to the EPL because the alternatives aren't good enough, by your own criteria. In other words, it's the best/second best league. Do you actually think before you type, or are you just trolling?

Troll Stamp approval.

Seriously though this discussion is totally going off hands now. time to put a stop to it.

 

[Dorado]

Without doubt, the most dangerous of the Spanish national team ...

 

[slbenficacoach]

Cuneyt Çakir is the ref for Portugal-Spain. He had a bad refereeing in Italy-Ireland and wasn't dismissed!

How interesting that the UEFA refereeing comitee has the spanish federation president, Angel Villar as the president, and the vice president is precisely his good old buddy, Senes Erzik, and these two are a part of UEFA's executive comitee for 20 and 22 years respectively.

Hooray for truth.

 

[Mike.]

Cuneyt Çakir is the ref for Portugal-Spain. He had a bad refereeing in Italy-Ireland and wasn't dismissed!

How interesting that the UEFA refereeing comitee has the spanish federation president, Angel Villar as the president, and the vice president is precisely his good old buddy, Senes Erzik, and these two are a part of UEFA's executive comitee for 20 and 22 years respectively.

Hooray for truth.

If you're getting ready for conspiracies in case you lose, sorry but that is a sign of a bad loser. There are lots of people who have known each other for a long time in UEFA, as a result many of them are friends. Stop looking for excuses and conspiracies.

 

[LFCMarshall]

Sounds like your simply readying excuses for when you get beat in your opinion, Referees can change matches, but judging him before the game is ridiculous because you dont know what will happen until the game actually is played...

 

[ajt09]

I would say one thing, some of the officiating has been very poor in parts, with some very strange decisions, and some sides not getting any decisions going their way when they should have been. Hopefully this'll get rectified and not screw up the semis and the final