Few basic tactic creation suggestions (for newbies)

[WJ]

Well, I tried reading the above guides, but I fail to draw a conclusion from them, although I just brieffly skipped through them. Can one of you make a simpler guide for newbies? I'm not looking for much text, I just need to be pointed in the right direction. for example, why did callamity pick attack in the above example? Is it because of formation? And why did he pick structured? Is it because of mentality and what is the link between the two? Also, I'd be interested to find out how can i make a tactic that will have defensive solidity first and foremost, let's say with control mentality? And what would be an appropriate formation for it and why? Also, any TI that need to be picked, I need to know why. I'm not looking into creating real life examples, I want to understand why stuff works or doesn't. In a few simple sentences, if possible. Thanks.

I can't tell you why he chose attacking (I wouldn't have) but it's quite clear why he chose structured. He has 4 playmakers! He's limiting creative freedom in the team, giving only the playmakers (who have a lot of CF) the freedom to deviate from their instructions, if they feel the need to. So he's allowing pkaymakers the freedom to make plays. Everyone else will stick to their task/instructions. There's no link between that and mentality and there shouldn't be.

 

[miguelalves]

The Mentality Laddder from Hand of God is also a must read

 

[callamity]

The Mentality Laddder from Hand of God is also a must read

agreed, probably one of the best more in depth ones out there.

 

[callamity]

Well, I tried reading the above guides, but I fail to draw a conclusion from them, although I just brieffly skipped through them. Can one of you make a simpler guide for newbies? I'm not looking for much text, I just need to be pointed in the right direction. for example, why did callamity pick attack in the above example? Is it because of formation? And why did he pick structured? Is it because of mentality and what is the link between the two? Also, I'd be interested to find out how can i make a tactic that will have defensive solidity first and foremost, let's say with control mentality? And what would be an appropriate formation for it and why? Also, any TI that need to be picked, I need to know why. I'm not looking into creating real life examples, I want to understand why stuff works or doesn't. In a few simple sentences, if possible. Thanks.

Im on my lunch so will need to be quick, I can't answer all of this because it would require a very long post for everything you have asked for here mate.

As it happens I was trying out one of the popular downloaded tactics in the forum, it wasnt working so well and I won 1 game in my first 9 was about to be sacked. Now I find the tactics I download to be over the top on instructions, team and player aswell as OI's. So to sit and watch games to find out what exactly was wrong with this tactic I had downloaded I couldnt be assed.

Choosing Attack

I decided that I'd start from scratch, I was on the verge of loosing my job so decided instead of sitting in I should be more aggressive. The 4231 puts alot of bodies in the attacking strata, and allows for a high press, one of the easiest to implement forms of football for this years match engine. My defenders will look for short passes aiming to keep the ball and give it to more creative players for example the DLP. My attacking players will play more direct, at a higher tempo looking to create chances and score goals.

The above is essentially how the "attack" mentality is set out to play without TI's or PI's or OI's.

That is why I chose attacking.

Choosing player roles.

As you mentioned the default player roles when you choose a formation tend to be ok and generally do the basics of what you need from the formation, I personally do not like automatic duties on players however.

As a rule of thumb I normally play (if using a back 4 or 5) 1 support and 1 attack duty in the defensive wide area's as per wwfans guide, and started with this initially as I was setting up the defense.

So I had a tactic that looked like

View attachment 297674

As my left back was going to be attacking I moved the defensive duty centre midfield player to the left side to provide cover.
and had this

View attachment 297673

This is when your pairs and combinations guide really compliments your tactic creation as it teaches you how to set up your partnerships. in the 4231 I see 5 sets of partnerships in my interpretation of them.

View attachment 297672

The core of the team consist of 3 pairs:

The white pair, 2 CB's
straight forward. will break up attacks, defend the box recycle possession

The red pair 1 CM(D) 1 CM (S)
! player to sit and protect the back 4 on defend duty. 1 support player to provide runs from deep etc.

The yellow Pair

The AMC on attack will make runs beyond the striker, press high up the pitch and look to play in the striker. The deeplying forward on support will hold up the ball much like a more creative target man, bring others into play and link up well with the midfield.

The blue pair are the widemen on both sides.

as I have chosen Advanced playmakers on support, they will look to slow down the attacking moves, provide clever passes and movement. playing narrower than a traditional winger, but not as much of a goal threat as an inside forward. More creator. I need to have width from the fullbacks, this is why they are both set to attacking in my tactic. They will get forward and provide crosses when needs must.


Choosing shape

This has been answered by WJ I think, who has answered correctly and probably more indepth than I will. I always always always refer to wwfans guide when choosing shape. This will tell me how many specialized and how many general roles I have and will provide a recommended shape.


Choosing TI's, PI's and OI's

This might be a bit different to the norm, or the recommended for me I play games on only commentary. I then know what the result will be and when I watch the game back on full I feel I can understand more of what is happening, I will do this for a few games and look for patterns of things that dont work then try to fix them by adding instructions.

 

[miguelalves]

These are the kind of discussions that either can be of use... or can't, it goes either way. But it could be avoided if SI just upgraded the text within the box descriptions about TI, PI, roles and duties, mentality and team shape instead of copy / paste it through the years and adding some new text once they come out with a few new roles. The game itself deserves better and we all deserve better and even a lot of us play it through the years, I'm sure there are always lots of newcomers that instead of having to go through dozens of pages of manuals, would like some visual info of all these items and how they interact with each other and I believe even long term players would like that.

 

[WJ]

These are the kind of discussions that either can be of use... or can't, it goes either way. But it could be avoided if SI just upgraded the text within the box descriptions about TI, PI, roles and duties, mentality and team shape instead of copy / paste it through the years and adding some new text once they come out with a few new roles. The game itself deserves better and we all deserve better and even a lot of us play it through the years, I'm sure there are always lots of newcomers that instead of having to go through dozens of pages of manuals, would like some visual info of all these items and how they interact with each other and I believe even long term players would like that.

For once, I agree with you.

I don't like the term "Mentality" and I don't like "Fluidity". It's misunderstood. ****, I don't even like the term "Duty". Duty is the term that could possibly stay, but needs to be explained better.

 

[wkdsoul]

The Mentality Laddder from Hand of God is also a must read

I linked him that in his other thread

 

[miguelalves]

For once, I agree with you.

I don't like the term "Mentality" and I don't like "Fluidity". It's misunderstood. ****, I don't even like the term "Duty". Duty is the term that could possibly stay, but needs to be explained better.

You'd be surprised with the amount of things you would agree with me

The problem is not with labels, mentality or strategy it's just what it is, a label. The problem is the lack of information to the users about the default settings that are produced by that label. Take the Mentality Ladder article from HoG, without that how many of us would know the specific priority of a player when setting mentality and team shape ? None, or close to none. Something so big like FM can't go on with this kind of flaws and without a few things that are basic and common sense in football and neither you can't have people that really want to build their own tactics spending more time in forums then enjoying the game. This is where I undertsand some frustration / rage threads.

 

[WJ]

You'd be surprised with the amount of things you would agree with me

The problem is not with labels, mentality or strategy it's just what it is, a label. The problem is the lack of information to the users about the default settings that are produced by that label. Take the Mentality Ladder article from HoG, without that how many of us would know the specific priority of a player when setting mentality and team shape ? None, or close to none. Something so big like FM can't go on with this kind of flaws and without a few things that are basic and common sense in football and neither you can't have people that really want to build their own tactics spending more time in forums then enjoying the game. This is where I undertsand some frustration / rage threads.

I haven't read that thread. I "know" how players will behave based on having watched many, many matches in full, in conjuction with knowing tactical basics. If there's something I'm not quite happy with, I tweak it, either by changing the role, duty or with a TI/PI.

I'd call Mentality something that gets the point across that we're talking about risk taking. Riskier tackles, passes, shots, crosser, runs etc.

I'd call Fluidity something closer to what it actually means. Creative licence/freedom or a Specialist vs Generalist approach.

Unfortunately, English isn't my first language and I can't think of a good enough term. I just know that the current terms aren't good enough. If they're kept, it should have much better explanations.

Even duties are a little ambiguous. Newer players especially, don't realise exactly what it means. I've come across people who put all their defenders on Defend duty, "otherwise they won't defend". It sounds incredibly stupid to us, but if you don't know, it's a valid thing to think.

 

[miguelalves]

Fluidity (or now, team shape) is something that doesn't exist in football or, at least when in football people speaks about a team playing a fluid football it's something that doesn't translate to FM. I also don't know a better word, but SI has some professional football colaborators, so it shouldn't be so difficult to look into these issues. My hope is that some SI Forum mods understand these issues and take it to the SI staff.

 

[WJ]

Fluidity (or now, team shape) is something that doesn't exist in football or, at least when in football people speaks about a team playing a fluid football it's something that doesn't translate to FM. I also don't know a better word, but SI has some professional football colaborators, so it shouldn't be so difficult to look into these issues. My hope is that some SI Forum mods understand these issues and take it to the SI staff.

There are good people there, both SI and mods. They really understand football and the intricacies of it. Much, much better than I ever will. I did bring it up over there as well (just before FM15's release), so it is on the radar, but obviously I have no idea what the plans are for future releases.

 

[miguelalves]

There are good people there, both SI and mods. They really understand football and the intricacies of it. Much, much better than I ever will. I did bring it up over there as well (just before FM15's release), so it is on the radar, but obviously I have no idea what the plans are for future releases.

Yes, there are, with laudable work and then... there are others, ok, moving along.

Now, considering fluidity giving more CF to players and asking them to do more than what they are asked to do from their roles, I guess it makes sense players having default PI if the manager goes with a structured team shapes. But if the manager goes with fluid team shapes, then the specialist role becomes irrelevant and those PI might turn available to the manager to choose what he wants from the player. More fluid team shapes, less default PI.

 

[WJ]

Yes, there are, with laudable work and then... there are others, ok, moving along.

Now, considering fluidity giving more CF to players and asking them to do more than what they are asked to do from their roles, I guess it makes sense players having default PI if the manager goes with a structured team shapes. But if the manager goes with fluid team shapes, then the specialist role becomes irrelevant and those PI might turn available to the manager to choose what he wants from the player. More fluid team shapes, less default PI.

Creative freedom has nothing to do with PI. It's giving him the freedom to look outside his PIs. That's all. A player who usually would pass short, sees no good options close by, but a midfielder on a great run. Normally, he'd see the pass, but try to stick to his instructions. In the end, he'll hoof it up field or force a short pass. If he's given the freedom necessary, he'd attempt the longer, riskier pass - a pass, which in all likelihood, has a higher chance of a completion than the other options would have had. It's for those situations, that playmakers have higher CF.

 

[miguelalves]

Creative freedom has nothing to do with PI. It's giving him the freedom to look outside his PIs. That's all. A player who usually would pass short, sees no good options close by, but a midfielder on a great run. Normally, he'd see the pass, but try to stick to his instructions. In the end, he'll hoof it up field or force a short pass. If he's given the freedom necessary, he'd attempt the longer, riskier pass - a pass, which in all likelihood, has a higher chance of a completion than the other options would have had. It's for those situations, that playmakers have higher CF.

I've read that english is not your first language, neither it's mine so I guess either you didn't understand my comment or I didn't explained well enough. Now I'm seeing why you have problems to agree with me
I never said CF has something to do with PI, what I said was if a manager choose more structured team shapes (or more rigid fluidity, if you like) it makes more sense to have default PI automaticaly set to the player's role. More structured will mean, in advance, that I will be using more specialist roles so it's helpful FM setting the PI. But - as an alternative - the manager goes with more fluid team shapes, he should be allowed to set the PI at his own. That's why I concluded, more fluid shapes, less (automaticaly) PI by default.

 

[WJ]

I've read that english is not your first language, neither it's mine so I guess either you didn't understand my comment or I didn't explained well enough. Now I'm seeing why you have problems to agree with me
I never said CF has something to do with PI, what I said was if a manager choose more structured team shapes (or more rigid fluidity, if you like) it makes more sense to have default PI automaticaly set to the player's role. More structured will mean, in advance, that I will be using more specialist roles so it's helpful FM setting the PI. But - as an alternative - the manager goes with more fluid team shapes, he should be allowed to set the PI at his own. That's why I concluded, more fluid shapes, less (automaticaly) PI by default.

No, I understood your point. Fluidity (CF) still has nothing to do with PIs. Players should have exactly the same PIs set in a Very Structured/Rigid system as in a Very Fluid one.

 

[miguelalves]

No, I understood your point. Fluidity (CF) still has nothing to do with PIs. Players should have exactly the same PIs set in a Very Structured/Rigid system as in a Very Fluid one.

Agree when using universal roles, not sure if I agree when using a specialist because in fluid systems his role becomes irrelevant. Since his role becomes irrelevant, the default PI assign to his role also become irrelevant so it should be up to the manager to decide the PI or to have more freedom of action regarding his PI. On top of this, in football I don't a see a manager telling a player "I want you to be an attacking (duty in FM) playmaker (role in FM)" and then the player will automatically look for dribbling quite often so it gets odd where is SI getting these weird ideas. Football is not bounded by roles and / or duties, much less should be a manager bounded.

 

[WJ]

Agree when using universal roles, not sure if I agree when using a specialist because in fluid systems his role becomes irrelevant. Since his role becomes irrelevant, the default PI assign to his role also become irrelevant so it should be up to the manager to decide the PI or to have more freedom of action regarding his PI. On top of this, in football I don't a see a manager telling a player "I want you to be an attacking (duty in FM) playmaker (role in FM)" and then the player will automatically look for dribbling quite often so it gets odd where is SI getting these weird ideas. Football is not bounded by roles and / or duties, much less should be a manager bounded.

I'd love an explanation as to why PIs become irrelevant in a fluid system? Simple answer: they don't. They will follow your instructions (role, duty, PIs) in any system. The more fluid you go, the more creative licence they have to step outside of that, if they feel they need to.

 

[miguelalves]

I'd love an explanation as to why PIs become irrelevant in a fluid system? Simple answer: they don't. They will follow your instructions (role, duty, PIs) in any system. The more fluid you go, the more creative licence they have to step outside of that, if they feel they need to.

Ok, now I'm starting to question if you don't understand what you read or if you do not want to understand.

You said it yourself why it become irrelevant, they step outside of PI and don't forget I'm talking specifically about specialist roles . As for the part " (...) if they feel they need to", there is no one who can make an assessment how is that done and how it works, how in FM a player feels a need of anything. It's a sentence full of nothing. Makes much more sense a manager having more freedom of choice setting the PI if the specialist role is irrelevant because of the very fluid system. The same way it makes more sense the default PI if the system enhances the specialist role.

 

[WJ]

Ok, now I'm starting to question if you don't understand what you read or if you do not want to understand.

You said it yourself why it become irrelevant, they step outside of PI and don't forget I'm talking specifically about specialist roles . As for the part " (...) if they feel they need to", there is no one who can make an assessment how is that done and how it works, how in FM a player feels a need of anything. It's a sentence full of nothing. Makes much more sense a manager having more freedom of choice setting the PI if the specialist role is irrelevant because of the very fluid system. The same way it makes more sense the default PI if the system enhances the specialist role.

I understand very well. You're failing to grasp fundamental concepts here.

In a fluid system, every role (specialist and generalist) has PIs and everyone performs the role according to that. That is the whole point of being given a role!

The only difference is, in a fluid system they have licence to do something different when the occasion calls for it. The player will never just "go rogue" the entire game, disregarding all instructions. Never. That's U/6 football.

 

[miguelalves]

I understand very well. You're failing to grasp fundamental concepts here.

In a fluid system, every role (specialist and generalist) has PIs and everyone performs the role according to that. That is the whole point of being given a role!

The only difference is, in a fluid system they have licence to do something different when the occasion calls for it. The player will never just "go rogue" the entire game, disregarding all instructions. Never. That's U/6 football.

Never said he goes rogue, the role just becomes irrelevant, it's just not enhanced due to the fluid system.