Is this year's version a gamble for plug n play tactics?

[Uygar89]

Some of you might know me from previos versions, especially for fm11 and fm12 I managed to create a very solid plug and play tactic. Since the old tactic table has gone, I found it very hard to create a solid and consistent plug and play tactic... I am studying in my master's degree also working more than 20 hours a week and I just want to enjoy the game and do not want to analyze every single game, as my play time is limited. I noticed that especially in this year' fm it seems impossible to create a solid and consistent tactic. I do not expect wonders as I did in fm11 or fm12, but at least I expect that a tactic will bring me 2-3 victories in a row, especially when you have dominated dortmund and won 5-0, you expect to win your next game aswell. But what happens is not only a defeat, but which takes the joy out of me is rather the way we lose... its not like previous fm's where you dominate completely and the opposition scores with its very first attack, but rather suddenly the team, which is in the relegation zone comes to you and totaly outplays you, having more than 20 shots on target, while I can not create anything. its the same tactic I beat dortmund 5-0 with and wolfsburg 4-1 away... I am playing a 5122 and expect at least to stay solid defensively but nevery works, as I can never win back the ball from the opposition...

 

[goal326499]

I have no idea how you manage to play this game. I only purchased it so that I can play network games, but when steam is online, which is required, my tactics are not my tactics. My standard mentality plays out as counter one match then attack the next match. ETC. So, I don't really see a point in discussing tactics anymore.

 

[WJ]

I have no idea how you manage to play this game. I only purchased it so that I can play network games, but when steam is online, which is required, my tactics are not my tactics. My standard mentality plays out as counter one match then attack the next match. ETC. So, I don't really see a point in discussing tactics anymore.

Stop spreading this ****, because that's what it is - ****. There's no difference in being online or not.

 

[vanTiggelen]

The gamble is the same as previoius. Don't suscribe to the game's really simple tactical logics, and you will experience randomness. Plus the hundred shots no goal matches (which is never down to creating a wealth of space for quality shots). I don't get that "time" argument though. Scouting the web / testing for that all conquering ME/AI busting super tactics already takes a hundred amounts of more time than just putting up your own reasonably base core. Once you're able to do that, you can do that every time off any formation in 30 seconds. Additionally, every patch can draw it bust, which multiplies all of that. Balanced cores on this look the same as on FM 2011, FM 2009, 2008, etc.

Also whilst it may be true that you may not immediately get miracle results as player quality actually matters, by the time somebody has finally settled for his ideal plug&play tactics you may have already finished multiple saves/seasons where you have witnessed a progressively, natural rise from bottom to top. All of that without ever suddenly getting completely outplayed by much inferior opposition to boot as that's only possible going an illogical Plug&play route that has holes everywhere. Actually, your assistant wouldn't suffer with that if all you do was holidaying between transfer windows.

 

[goal326499]

Actually, my neighbour comes over every day, and we play for a few hours. In fact, he just left moments ago. We both watch our matches and have played a number of leagues of all kinds. What happens is that we both setup our tactics, and we both play the way we want to, until something happens, and we both witness his or mine match where the team suddenly stops playing what it was ordered to do, we get trashed 8:0 until 80ish minute, when hocus pocus, the tactic returns to what it was setup to be and the match ends 8:2. When my neighbour leaves, I play solo, and all kinds of weird **** just like that is happening. From GKs dropping the ball out of his hands instead of doing a goal kick, to players that seem confused or doing an autogoal, or passing around in my box until they lose the ball and we conceede. I kept telling myself that's it's prolly the games way of doing things when you screw something up tactically, so I played seasons with only fluidity and mentality changed. Same thing. Then I swithed off my network adapter and played one match with my defensive tactic, and we won 4:0 a match that I usually lose or conceede in plenty if I play online. However, I refused to play like that and went back online because I bought the ****** game to play network games. What am I supposed to conclude?

 

[vanTiggelen]

Also goes back to previous likely. Don't subscribe to the game's simple tactical logics, and you will experience randomness. [There is no such thing as an artifical way of the game showing you anything. There is at best a bug, but no]. For instance:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...5595-attila-attacking-tactic.html#post3089042

Whilst that may be effective depending on how opponents line up in this version due to an imo major defensive weakness in the ME, and this clearly is a flawed computer take, show me one side in all history of football that channels the entire play through the middle off a narrow formation with both sole wide players glued to the backline never going forward and providing width. It's astonishing the conspiracies going around, that network adapter thing is a new one though. It might actually be rooted in something very much happening. AI managers operate completely different to the human opponents you face online. The last few online tournaments I never faced anybody shutting up shop, always on the attack, and a lot are on similar p&p tactics, whilst AI switch their tactics oft multiple times a match. Offline who cares. I prefer to play the game online only with people I know due to exploits. Sucks the fun out of it if somebody can download and steamroll a much superior side. If this were a multiplayer game exclusively, this game were dead.

A constant point of debate seems to be how much should be spoon fed and what should be not. Some would say you should struggle some if you were struggling with team sport basics (or how to translate them into the game). Personally I would have never had a problem with the game optionally spoon feeding at least the basics completely. Places to start. https://community.sigames.com/topic/373937-tactic-building-and-training-guides-start-here/

 

[WJ]

You "conclude" things after playing a match. One. Well done.

Actually, my neighbour comes over every day, and we play for a few hours. In fact, he just left moments ago. We both watch our matches and have played a number of leagues of all kinds. What happens is that we both setup our tactics, and we both play the way we want to, until something happens, and we both witness his or mine match where the team suddenly stops playing what it was ordered to do, we get trashed 8:0 until 80ish minute, when hocus pocus, the tactic returns to what it was setup to be and the match ends 8:2.

But then, what about the match where suddenly in the 80th min, the tactic "works" again? This just shows that it's either a lack of understanding about what's happening in the match or you're not paying attention. Remember that the AI changes things up. No game is ever the same and also AI changes will influence things.

I've seen the sort of tactics you come up with, so you will get a "random" game here and there.

 

[goal326499]

The tactics I post in the share section are ****, just like the rest of them there. They work only under specific circumstances, just like the other tactics there. I simply followed the guiness beer joke/rule. If you aint having a beer, neither shall I.

Everyone seems focused on trolling here, or hiding what they know like it will cost them their jobs or lives if they reveal anything useful. And not only here, almost every website, blog, or article I've read is bogus or semi true. IT made my job of learning tactics very difficult, so in previous years I have posted much junk, and false info that I've read somewhere, or at least misunderstood what was written. I have no ill intention, and if I ever instructed someone wrongly, its because my own knowledge is wrong. But when I do learn a thing or two, I notice people are putting other people off the mark for some reason, like WJ here. And not only that, but he and some others tend to argue and curse, like they have no manners or class whatsoever. But nevermind them, I care not becuase you Know what they say about opinions and who has them.

 

[WJ]

The tactics I post in the share section are ****, just like the rest of them there. They work only under specific circumstances, just like the other tactics there. I simply followed the guiness beer joke/rule. If you aint having a beer, neither shall I.

Everyone seems focused on trolling here, or hiding what they know like it will cost them their jobs or lives if they reveal anything useful. And not only here, almost every website, blog, or article I've read is bogus or semi true. IT made my job of learning tactics very difficult, so in previous years I have posted much junk, and false info that I've read somewhere, or at least misunderstood what was written. I have no ill intention, and if I ever instructed someone wrongly, its because my own knowledge is wrong. But when I do learn a thing or two, I notice people are putting other people off the mark for some reason, like WJ here. And not only that, but he and some others tend to argue and curse, like they have no manners or class whatsoever. But nevermind them, I care not becuase you Know what they say about opinions and who has them.

You've been told more than once, by more than one person that there's no difference between being online or offline. You keep sticking your fingers in your ears though.

 

[goal326499]

AI managers operate completely different to the human opponents you face online. The last few online tournaments I never faced anybody shutting up shop, always on the attack, and a lot are on similar p&p tactics, whilst AI switch their tactics oft multiple times a match. Offline who cares. I prefer to play the game online only with people I know due to exploits. Sucks the fun out of it if somebody can download and steamroll a much superior side. If this were a multiplayer game exclusively, this game were dead.

I wasn't talking about matches against human opponents. I was talking about simply the fact my PC was online. I have no issues with learning, but not all managers always win. In fact, I don't Know of a single manager who never lost a game. So, they are the masters and I'm the student? I don't think that will work, at least in my own case. So, if my sideback never leaves his position to offer width, who are you or anyone else for that matter, to say that's wrong?

 

[goal326499]

View attachment 95693

here, test this against the AI or human, whichever you prefer, with any kind of a team, and tell me whats wrong with it

 

[vanTiggelen]

I wasn't talking about matches against human opponents. I was talking about simply the fact my PC was online. I have no issues with learning, but not all managers always win. In fact, I don't Know of a single manager who never lost a game. So, they are the masters and I'm the student? I don't think that will work, at least in my own case. So, if my sideback never leaves his position to offer width, who are you or anyone else for that matter, to say that's wrong?

The game's engine is tried to be based on football logics. There have to be some logics, or anything would just work fantastically. Sports isn't a sandbox, or else everybody would just line up the way they want. Any narrow formation has struggled for width, which either are provided by central midfielders stretching (limited to do in FM), or the backs. If they didn't, any opposition could sit deep, pack the area in front of their goal and force them to long shots. Typically, that is also what is happening on FM. If that is effective some currently, this would be mainly down to a temporary defensive weakness, but it's not football logics. It would also depend hugely how an opponent lines up, as some opposition formations pack that middle area, some not. Naturally it's not just a game of tactics, as better dribblers etc. pull defenders around anyway some.

But this goes some back to the opening post. The "plug & play" tactics you typically find, unlike yours, they don't even try to play "football". They aim to game the ME. Whilst there is nothing wrong with that, any patch can kill, and you're back to the drawing board. It's a viable style, but long-term how's that any less time consuming. There is no requirement to spend hours fiddling on the perfect tactics™. In the above case with a Defend duty FBs as per their description are encouraged to stay back. In an older release I had an AI manager playing similar, never much advancing his wide guys, so he could only pass through the middle packed with defenders. For 45 minutes, he didn't even get a single shot off. You don't need to listen to anyone. But the best places imo remain as linked to, and in this case you'd likely get very similar replies.

 

[goal326499]

I'm not using other peoples tactics dude. Everything is my own "invention". And it's supposed to be good at real football, not just the ME. The screenie I posted is a tactic that wasn't designed to do anything special or beat the ME. The support duties are usually the transition or creators players, and they have been given enough width with standard mentality to do their thing effectively without making us leaky. They create, one of the two strikers score. No need to provide width with sidebacks and they are more useful as cover. It is my beleif they shouldnt be asked to do more then defend in a highly structured fluidity, as that is the basics of basics, defenders defend, mids support and strikers attack. And It will fit every team, from the lowest league to the top equally because of it. The formation has players in every important area so gaps that you usualy find in highly structured tactics are eliminated. In fact, it is my beleif that with properly chosen roles and duties and fluidity for a formation, you can play just about anything succesfully with standard mentality. It doesn't even matter if they are restricting you to long shots or not, you aren't ordering them control nor attack. Give it a try.

View attachment 95690

btw this one might also work, but haven't tested it and don't recommend it.

 

[WJ]

I'm not using other peoples tactics dude. Everything is my own "invention". And it's supposed to be good at real football, not just the ME. The screenie I posted is a tactic that wasn't designed to do anything special or beat the ME. The support duties are usually the transition or creators players, and they have been given enough width with standard mentality to do their thing effectively without making us leaky. They create, one of the two strikers score. No need to provide width with sidebacks and they are more useful as cover. It is my beleif they shouldnt be asked to do more then defend in a highly structured fluidity, as that is the basics of basics, defenders defend, mids support and strikers attack. And It will fit every team, from the lowest league to the top equally because of it. The formation has players in every important area so gaps that you usualy find in highly structured tactics are eliminated. In fact, it is my beleif that with properly chosen roles and duties and fluidity for a formation, you can play just about anything succesfully with standard mentality. It doesn't even matter if they are restricting you to long shots or not, you aren't ordering them control nor attack. Give it a try.

You talk about this reducing "gaps", but you've selected Very Structured, which further separates Attacking, Support and Defend Duties, so you're creating more gaps than what you close.

You really need width in any formation and the fullbacks are key, but you've left them back, so there's no support from wide. If the middle is clogged, there's no "out" ball available.

The forwards BOTH just charge forward, leaving the midfield behind. They're disconnected and there's very little link play going on.

The AMC is supposed to link, but he'll move forward too late, mostly because of the poor choice of shape. You'd have been better off with the other extreme, Very Fluid. The ideal situation and what actual teams IRL do, is to have a Striker drop off so 1 player should have a Support Duty.

Now of course, this team attacks with only the 2 forwards, so is incredibly one-dimensional. You'll create chances because the focus is on the middle and the defenders will all get rid of the ball ASAP. Teams that attack you or are moderately aggressive, will give up chances against you. You're going to basically hope for a defender to hoof it for the 2 forwards to manufacture something between themselves against 2 or 3.

The real weakness is against teams who will park the bus against you. Your 2 fowards are going to struggle against 6 defensive players and you don't have enough going forward or enough ball retention to do anything about it.

So as far as plug 'n play goes, not great at all.

The basic Defend duties for Defenders, Support for Midfield and Attack for Forwards, is never a good idea.

 

[goal326499]

wj, can you explain what I did wrong here?

View attachment 95688

 

[Bigpapa42]

I was going to post something similar to what WJ did about the posted narrow tactic. No width and oddly balanced. You want balance through the side, not just separated into attack, support, and defense. No linking of play. Not enough movement horizontally. Having 2 players with the exact same role n duty can work, but its often missing opportunities to have them compliment each other rather than trying to do the exact same thing.

 

[Bigpapa42]

wj, can you explain what I did wrong here?

View attachment 1114194

Not WJ, but I see some immediate issues.

Your only width is from 2 support playmakers. They won't provide enough.

No shield in front of your 3 CBs and no defending wide at all. When both CMs are forward, you are left unbelievably exposed through the middle.

3 forwards but all Defensive Forwards.... why?

No one has much for passing outlets. So a CB gets the ball to a WP... Who can he pass to? The BBM or back to the CB. And those might be fairly long passes.

Again, why the same role and duty across bands like that?

 

[WJ]

wj, can you explain what I did wrong here?

View attachment 1114194

Same thing again. There's no variation and no one is creating or exploiting space.

It all comes back to that 'guide' of yours. If you find something that works, it's not because you're using a footballing concept to do it.

Not even gonna waste time to check it out. The errors are basic.

 

[goal326499]

It really was an interesting match

 

[WJ]

It really was an interesting match

The match doesn't matter. Bigpapa42 touched on key points and asked important questions. You should be thinking about that and trying to answer it in a way that isn't vague and makes sense in practice.

None of the "because it's a flat formation you need to be fluid" nonsense. There should be proper reasoning for the same duties for strikers, the wides, the midfield and the centrebacks.

I cannot see you explaining how you came up with that if you're going to talk about space (and you need to talk about space) but maybe give it a shot. Maybe it opens your eyes to things?