Is this year's version a gamble for plug n play tactics?

Yes, there have been some changes. Not saying none of it applies, but I'm not going to spend a bunch of time reading thru the old guide to see. That's on you. Do some reading of guides for FM17 tactics and see.
 
goal326499 said:
it is explained in detail here:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...ics/205292-team-shape-roles-duties-guide.html

However, you may be right, and the guide may not be correct
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I know about the guide. That's why I asked what I did.

Just the changes to Team Shape alone means that this is outdated. The forcing of only certain roles and especially duties for certain Mentalities and Shapes is just wrong on so many levels.

It just forces people into a little box with a one-dimensional tactic. You're better off with a proper, newer guide dealing with proper footballing terms.
 
I don't see team shape changed at all, judging by ingame info, upon which the guide is based.

If I may be offtopic, when you apply for Microsoft certification, they give you a test and answers. Hardware and software issues and proper way of solving them. If wj is correct then there is more then one way of solving your issue, but if you want things done properly, you need to think within restrictions. I never play a defensive centre back in a very fluid tactic, as very fluid means the whole team must work for one another and do a lot more then just clear the ball. If you have a very fluid setup and some players being team players and all, and some not giving a ****, it will not end well. They must all be on the same page or the whole structure will collapse like a house of cards. So, even outdated, I think the guide will always be true, even 50 years from now.
 
the in-game descriptions don't provide everything. Things have changed. Things that have an impact. But if you want to believe otherwise and keep doing things as you are doing and facing frustrating, that's up to you.

The ME is designed not to be simple and linear and a "box". Its not "do this and win". Its not even "do this and that will happen". There are so many variables involved. Changing one thing impacts multiple other factors. Its similar to real football in that sense. Thinking within restrictions is limiting and if everyone approached things that way, football would never have evolved tactically. This guide - or any tactical - provide some guidelines on how to approach the process. They don't provide answers. They don't provide "do this and you win, don't do this or you won't". And they shouldn't.
 
goal326499 said:
I don't see team shape changed at all, judging by ingame info, upon which the guide is based.
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It has changed though. I'm telling you it has. You can check in-game that it has. Why are you trying to be difficult? The guide is outdated.

You can find the info on team shape in here: https://community.sigames.com/topic/374464-frequently-asked-questions/ and https://community.sigames.com/topic/401273-what-is-team-shape/ and probably a million other places.

goal326499 said:
If I may be offtopic, when you apply for Microsoft certification, they give you a test and answers. Hardware and software issues and proper way of solving them. If wj is correct then there is more then one way of solving your issue, but if you want things done properly, you need to think within restrictions. I never play a defensive centre back in a very fluid tactic, as very fluid means the whole team must work for one another and do a lot more then just clear the ball. If you have a very fluid setup and some players being team players and all, and some not giving a ****, it will not end well. They must all be on the same page or the whole structure will collapse like a house of cards. So, even outdated, I think the guide will always be true, even 50 years from now.
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You posted tactics and you've been told exactly why that guide is not good... at all. Still you defend it? A proper guide using proper footballing concepts will hold true, yes. This is not such a guide.
 
First of all, thank you very much for your replies :) Did not expect so much responses and such an active discussion. So in order to make it more clear, what I mean, I have just uploaded some screenshots of my early first season with Everton. Defeat is no problem, I am thinking on a long-term and it rather disturbs me the way we are going down after the first 2 brilliant matches... Just have a look, especially outplayed at home against West Ham with the same tactic I used in the first two matches...
Would be glad if you guys could recommend something... Btw, I am playing fairly narrow. Also I would still like to use my own tactic :)
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The first is, never determine solely by those overly simplistic stats whether anybody outplayed anyone (including the broken CCC stat... long-term that conversion doesn't look much different to SOT anyhow). What it may boil down at the end of the experience considering the initial question: "P&P tactics a gamble?" may still what was posted this time last year. If you would end up tweaking for hours on end for that one "p&p super tactic" to win leagues with mediocre teams first season, be prepared to go through similar (or download what's there!). Even more so if you are focused on maximizing possession and shot stats (which is admittedly too easy to do with extreme tactics). Creating space is different. Everton are an above average team. They're not expected to statistically dominate everything, in particular away were AI plays more aggressive. A dominating team creates a wealth of high probability shots in space, quality trumps quantity. In FM there can be easily a whole lot of fake domination and there's no stat to show for it. :mad: It's incredibly hard to let go off those simple stats once you've grown accustomed to focus so much on them, but the least thing is having that long shot stat enabled at all times.


15ZlPGL.jpg


This goes both ways, (too?) easy to amass shots, the quality is another matter (in particular if forwards then go nervous/frustrated after missing loads). It's only that the classic "super tactics" never "encouraged" anything similar against them in their quest for always superior possession and shot counts. That said, the counter mentality doesn't by default encourage to hold a load of possession. The defending guys are encouraged to clear under pressure (or are at least at mixed passing by now). It also makes the team drop deeper without tweaking, inviting the opponent some into your half, which can lead to additional shots (the question then is how good those, see above). That can be tweaked some. Without some further encouragement it's not something I'd personally expect to "dominate" the possession stats with either way, unless the opposition would drop deep itself, which differs from match to match. :)
 
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I think you still fail to understand my point of view.

If you used this guide, you could create a traditional English 442. Highly structured. And yes, football has evolved. If you wanted to do what wj suggests, have movement, create and exploit space, that would correspond to fluid fluidity, and yes, that is better. The best is very fluid, which is basically fluid plus all players roaming and looking for space. And no, not all teams can do that or have the players capable of it. In low league, you must play highly structured because you have bad players, so its still viable to someone. Of course you wont play it in Prem. My attila tactic proves it. I won with a highly structured tactic a promotion in vanarama with it, First season, but i do expect do get relegated back if i keep on using it at higher levels.
 
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goal326499 said:
I think you still fail to understand my point of view.
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You think those options to do something which they don't. For that you aren't at fault, the game's documentation is meh. You've been linked officialy FAQs where it explains stuff. Not sure what could make this more clear. You'd need movement on any shape setting for any coherent attacking play (let alone a side not defending in flat lines all the time). If you think that's how the Croatia national team plays that's wrong. If you think that there's any side in football not occupying the pitch with the only wide guys sitting back 90 minutes on any level that's wrong. Linking duties to shapes as that guide suggests harms any tactical coherency on any version of FM. This guide is a car crash as it contradicts everything given by the actual creators as well as most basic team sports logics. What is intriguing is why do you come in and post this when you are so successful? Your "issues" are completely different at the core to Uygar89 who has been looking for "plug&play super tactics" (oft the statistically dominating kind) and despite overall huge success invites randomness and at least for individual matches frustration (which is the gamble of that way of playing)?

goal326499 said:
I have no idea how you manage to play this game.
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@uygar89: try this:

View attachment 95592

@ vantiggelen: in LLM, you dont have players capable of what you are talking about, nor you have opponents that require such skill to beat them, that is why traditional English 442 was effective for a while, and still is at some low level somewhere.
 
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Respectfully, all of this is wrong again.
goal326499 said:
If you used this guide, you could create a traditional English 442. Highly structured. And yes, football has evolved.
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You don't know what a 'traditional' 442 is then. Because with that guide, you're not going to create it. Fullbacks aren't as un-involved (defend duties, really?) as that guide wants them to be. A traditional 442 has always had a creator/destroyer or destroyer/runner etc partnership. You guide doesn't care about this. A traditional 442 has always had either big man/little man or creator/scorer. Your guide doesn't care about that either.

A 442 is about partnerships, but your guide ignores all of this.

goal326499 said:
If you wanted to do what wj suggests, have movement, create and exploit space, that would correspond to fluid fluidity, and yes, that is better. The best is very fluid, which is basically fluid plus all players roaming and looking for space. And no, not all teams can do that or have the players capable of it. In low league, you must play highly structured because you have bad players, so its still viable to someone. Of course you wont play it in Prem. My attila tactic proves it. I won with a highly structured tactic a promotion in vanarama with it, First season, but i do expect do get relegated back if i keep on using it at higher levels.
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This is just BS. Lower league teams can play any Team Shape. You're just making up things. Lower league teams can use any role too. And any Mentality.
 
goal326499 said:
in LLM, you dont have players capable of what you are talking about, nor you have opponents that require such skill to beat them, that is why traditional English 442 was effective for a while, and still is at some low level somewhere.
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You realise that team shape just alters individual players' Mentality and their Creative Freedom, right? It's not complicated. Nothing about that suggests that an "LLM player" can't do it.
 
Solid tactic

I have created a tactic that seems to be very, very strong. I create loads of chances as you can see in the screenshots. Almost all of those are coming from through balls from the center of the field. It is great to watch this type of football as I have loads of possession with short passes and I will have runs from the front 5 players straight towards the opponents' goal.
I would say that you can fairly easily plug and play it.
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^^ Yeah, going that route I'd take that or try similar Uygar. Packing the middle is fairly exploity in FM 2017. But as said, that gamble is,any future version you're back to the drawing board. In football that wouldn't work. Cramming the middle would be very easy to defend. Certainly not to the extent again that bad teams dramatically overachieve, and you would just hit the space bar in essence after starting up the game. Here it works because flooding the middle drags players everywhere, and that middle has been severely weakened in FM 2017 in favor of how the flanks are defended. Exploit tactics on FM 2016 almost all aimed the flanks (and fell apart when FM 2017 was due). [This has already been reported as a "bug" by many, so is not expected to work long-term, is all].

It's still not without pitfalls though. Exploits aren't universal. Come against an AI manager that drops deep and whose formation stuffs that middle, and you can have this. Especially if that crucial opening goal doesn't come. That's not due to the game artificially nerfing chance conversion. That's due to all of those players then trying to squeeze through a brick wall with no space, the super tactics aiming at that one exploit found out for it's one-dimensionality, and every shot from play going off being hurried in no space, or from set piece spammage after the defenders clear over and over.

As said, viable playing. The gamble is the same as previous. Looking for that universally super tactic is a never ending exercise in frustration, particular if it has been before. The stuff that works universally looks the same any version. So far anyway. :D No need to spend endless hours testing on this. Fire it up, ready to roll. Exploiting draws all the other stuff kinda moot anyhow, including the transfer markets. At the bottom line it isn't much different to going into the editor outright, so I dunno how some wait weeks, months for that one "cheat" tactic so that they can at all enjoy this. Must be a psychological thing.
 
Ok, so I started a new save yesterday, this time, I really promised to mysel that I won't quit quickly after losing games... So even though I could only manage one win in the first 7-8 games, I then started to watch games in full mode and tried to analyze what is really happening and why I am getting so much pressure and can't rarely create something... I learned and learned and tweaked my 4411 Allegri tactic always and we started a real run :) so happy that it finally worked out. Am looking forward how the scnd season will be :) If the results can be verified, then I will gain my trust in the FM match engine again :) View attachment 95361View attachment 95360View attachment 95359
 
That work ball into box will lower your number of shots taken, so if you come upon a Club difficult to play through you may not fire a single shot during the whole match. Also, play narrower Works until opponent kills the middle play, then youre screwed. My suggestion would be to not use any TI's as they all work in one match and possibly not in the other. Fluid plus perhaps defensive mentality is what I would suggest
 
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