JD'S 4-1-2-2-1 - The Guardiola model

[USMNT]

You have a point but then again you could argue that with a top tactic you can throw in youngster's and they can shine. Take Jordan Rossiter for example - only 18 but excels in midfield when I play him. His stats are far from peaking - in fact most league one players have more rounded stats but the tactic takes away any issues. I can field a team of youngsters with an average age of under 21 and still win against most sides in the league cup or f.a cup.

Lol you are confusing me. I didn't say any of that lol. Didn't saying anything about youngsters not being able to shine, or even anything about first team players. Just mentioned that with youngsters, they still have room to grow rather than say a 32 year old first teamer. so, with that youngster, even if he is already a top level starter, still has a lot of room to grow. Therefore, you can individual train him for the role he plays in your tactic so that it makes him better at that role. If you use a F9, why train him as a poacher? Train his abilities that are significant to that F9

I stated that the immediate effectiveness of a tactic comes from the current ability of the players. General and Individual training take a while to go in effect. Takes a while for players to develop. So, your current season's success is from your tactic and the players you have. Individual training and general training will play no part. match training will though.

Also talked about how individual training will impact the long term development of your players, but not immediate development. Therefore, it does very little for your immediate success of your team and a given tactic.

 

[Jake]

Disagree, agree, listen to advice, ignore it, whatever, i don't really care.

Stop calling people ****** carlos.

 

[USMNT]

My appologies to the OP and Mods. Didn't intend to hijack the thread and derail it. Was just trying to make it clear about how individual training has very little short term and immediate impact on your tactic and its success since it seems like some people are worried about individual training and if they don't have it set a certain way then their tactic won't work.

 

[jdcurly]

I though you were saying that youngsters need to be coached for a period before they are ready and so I stated that this tactic negates any need for that and you can play your 2nd or 3rd string and still get great performances. Anyway, before this 'debate' carries on without any direction, has anyone actually tried the tactic yet??!! lol

 

[miguelalves]

Plug and play. Training is set to 75% - 25% in favour of more match training and I do not set any OI's. Team talks I deal with: If winning at home by one goal at HT I tell the player's they've not been good enough, regardless of the opposition. If winning by one goal away I encourage to keep it up. Anything better, home or away I tell them I am pleased with their performance.

screenshots of possession % plz

 

[USMNT]

I though you were saying that youngsters need to be coached for a period before they are ready and so I stated that this tactic negates any need for that and you can play your 2nd or 3rd string and still get great performances. Anyway, before this 'debate' carries on without any direction, has anyone actually tried the tactic yet??!! lol

Nope. Didn't say that. Sorry for not being too clear Said that as a youngster, you are undeveloped in the sense that you are still many CA points away from reaching your potential. So therefore, you can mold him into the exact role you want and need, where as Messi is who he is and if he lacks in a certain role, he is near his max CA, so it is unlikely to have him master that role that he is currently lacking in. Where as with a youngster, you can take an 18 year old AMF who is currently a 1 star out of 4, training him to be a WBL left, use his current attacking mentality and make him one **** of an attacking wingback.

Or you can even individually training a starter who is still young. My save is Liverpool. Sterling has been stellar, but still has many CA points to develop until he is max'd out. So, i have him set to be the role he plays in Individual training. Pointless for me to do that for say, Steven Gerrard since he is practically max'd out and/or declining. For him it is just about staying in match shape and strong.

 

[jdcurly]

Playing the game as I type and here's a ss of the match I have just finished vs Everton.

 

[miguelalves]

Since you've mentioned full-backs and wingers I guess you are replicating a 433 or a 4231 or a 4141. The first was used with Barcelona, turning into a 343 with Busquets droping between the CDs, and the others were used last season with Bayern. Right now, Guardiola is more about a 3421, 3412, 3331, this last one being quite impossible to replicate in FM because there aren't the player roles such as Central Defender Box-to-Box and something to make Bernat who is playing in the middle but acts like a wing-back. Maybe new roles will come in FM16.

 

[jdcurly]

Pointless for me to do that for say, Steven Gerrard since he is practically max'd out and/or declining. For him it is just about staying in match shape and strong.

Funny thing is - I put both Gerrard and Sterling on stamina focus, same with Markovic. Gerrard so that I can get the last drop of talent from him each week without having to rotate him and sterling because his stamina is only 11 at the start. I let the rest of his stats develop through playing.

 

[jdcurly]

Since you've mentioned full-backs and wingers I guess you are replicating a 433 or a 4231 or a 4141. The first was used with Barcelona, turning into a 343 with Busquets droping between the CDs, and the others were used last season with Bayern. Right now, Guardiola is more about a 3421, 3412, 3331, this last one being quite impossible to replicate in FM because there aren't the player roles such as Central Defender Box-to-Box and something to make Bernat who is playing in the middle but acts like a wing-back. Maybe new roles will come in FM16.

This is why the full backs are set to 'Get further forward' but not to look for the overlap. Take Alaba for example, he isn't a midfielder, but what he does do is push up to join the line of existing midfielders. That way if a move breaks down, and you will see this when watching the matches, you have enough players close enough to win the ball back within a few seconds, and high up the pitch, which prevents the counter.

 

[USMNT]

Funny thing is - I put both Gerrard and Sterling on stamina focus, same with Markovic. Gerrard so that I can get the last drop of talent from him each week without having to rotate him and sterling because his stamina is only 11 at the start. I let the rest of his stats develop through playing.

ya, that is a good focus for Gerrard. You don't need to do it for Sterling. Develop his more important attributes. He will gain stanima from the season as well indirectly from training. But ya, there is no one way to do it. Right now I am running a 3 striker tactic and I have sterling playing it and therefore have him training to learn Striker and have his individual training set to the role he is in the tactic. He is doing amazing.

 

[jdcurly]

ya, that is a good focus for Gerrard. You don't need to do it for Sterling. Develop his more important attributes. He will gain stanima from the season as well indirectly from training.

I choose to do it the other way around though, always have. Stamina first, other stats develop on their own over time.

 

[USMNT]

I choose to do it the other way around though, always have. Stamina first, other stats develop on their own over time.

I understand your way too. There is more than just one or two right ways to do things in this game. I do it that way with some players and the way I explained with others, often switching and changing lol.

I am training Sterling to be a Striker, and the role he plays in F9. So, I have individual set to F9.

 

[avaldeso]

Dude, seriously? You haven't learned by now? In every single tactic thread in this forum you have asked about individual training, infact, that is all you post about on here. And, every time you ask, someone details it out for you. Yet, you still keep asking. Regardless of the tactic, your individual training approach should be the same. Also, you do realize that general and individual training does nothing the the immediate success of a tactic right? Also, what fun is it if you are having someone else play the game for you? Find out what your player needs working on, train him on that. Set it to average, see how he reacts, set it to high, see how he reactcs. Also pay attention to the workload level. I personally set my individual training to the roles that they will be playing in this tactic, especially the young undeveloped and far from max potential ones. Also, it seems like you think that there is only one way to do individual training and it must be done uniquely for each and every tactic or else it won't work. You do understand what individual and general training does, right? it isn't for the tactic. Every time someone makes a tactic thread you post the question "what do you do for individual training" as if there needs to be a specific way to fit that tactic, and that this tactic completely relies on individual and general training.

But aside from all that, if you don't know, test out different variations yourself. That is the only way you are going to learn. Don't you ever get tired asking the same question over and over and do you ever wonder why it is not sticking to your brain each time we all detail it out for you?

Bravo!!!! Encore!!! Dude nice answer!! hahahaha, will test your tactic just for this comment! Playing with Derby in Sky Bet Championship 1st season, league leaders, but i want more domination!

 

[jdcurly]

I understand your way too. There is more than just one or two right ways to do things in this game. I do it that way with some players and the way I explained with others, often switching and changing lol.

I am training Sterling to be a Striker, and the role he plays in F9. So, I have individual set to F9.

I have bought Gabriel Barbosa so I leave him as a winger and rotate between Sturridge, Barbosa and Balotelli as the F9.

 

[miguelalves]

This is why the full backs are set to 'Get further forward' but not to look for the overlap. Take Alaba for example, he isn't a midfielder, but what he does do is push up to join the line of existing midfielders. That way if a move breaks down, and you will see this when watching the matches, you have enough players close enough to win the ball back within a few seconds, and high up the pitch, which prevents the counter.

Indeed, that's the all good common sense ^^) The thing is not with instructions, its really with the absence of player roles to replicate the current Bayern, for example even if you use the PI Run Wide with the Ball to the DM position he will not act as wing-back (maybe the Roaming Playmaker can do it, placed in an inside position and going wider), the Central Defender acting like a box-to-box is impossible unless the player is trained with a few ppm.

 

[miguelalves]

Playing the game as I type and here's a ss of the match I have just finished vs Everton.

You've already got the results, now you need the possession %

 

[jonnyharb]

Dude, seriously? You haven't learned by now? In every single tactic thread in this forum you have asked about individual training, infact, that is all you post about on here. And, every time you ask, someone details it out for you. Yet, you still keep asking. Regardless of the tactic, your individual training approach should be the same. Also, you do realize that general and individual training does nothing the the immediate success of a tactic right? Also, what fun is it if you are having someone else play the game for you? Find out what your player needs working on, train him on that. Set it to average, see how he reacts, set it to high, see how he reactcs. Also pay attention to the workload level. I personally set my individual training to the roles that they will be playing in this tactic, especially the young undeveloped and far from max potential ones. Also, it seems like you think that there is only one way to do individual training and it must be done uniquely for each and every tactic or else it won't work. You do understand what individual and general training does, right? it isn't for the tactic. Every time someone makes a tactic thread you post the question "what do you do for individual training" as if there needs to be a specific way to fit that tactic, and that this tactic completely relies on individual and general training.

But aside from all that, if you don't know, test out different variations yourself. That is the only way you are going to learn. Don't you ever get tired asking the same question over and over and do you ever wonder why it is not sticking to your brain each time we all detail it out for you?

Bravo for saying something mate! I've noticed the same since FM14, same question every day, every tactic haha

 

[jdcurly]

You've already got the results, now you need the possession %

54% is fine against an Everton side that likes to pass it around and keep it. Plus if you read Pep Confidential at any time Guardiola loathes Tikka Takka. Says 'It's ****' in fact. Passing for the sake of it. He has a 15 pass rule. Move the ball and opposition around with 15 passes and then strike.

 

[miguelalves]

It's not about passing for the sake of it, the idea of having the ball is a defensive idea (if the opponent doesn't have it, can't score), so it's more like passing the ball (the 15 passes) and strike, regain possession, pass the ball, strike, regain possession, pass the ball, strike, that's why his teams have about 70% possession. In FM some things are limited, possession is linked to the opposition closing down more or less: if they close down less, our team will have more possession and player roles that give more vertical movement will be ok; if they close down more player roles must be set to give more horizontal movement (support roles).