Woah woah woah. Barca got beat last year by Hercules aswell and they went on to do what? Win the league with a gazillion points down to the 3rd/4th team. Also, Barca beat Villareal 5-0 and Atletico 5-0. Two teams which are supposed to be fighting for Champions League places. Real Madrid have been in a bit of a bad stint, but it won't last.
Liga BBVA 2010-2011 Thread.
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Woah woah woah. Barca got beat last year by Hercules aswell and they went on to do what? Win the league with a gazillion points down to the 3rd/4th team. Also, Barca beat Villareal 5-0 and Atletico 5-0. Two teams which are supposed to be fighting for Champions League places. Real Madrid have been in a bit of a bad stint, but it won't last.
Jamie, you have a very idealised version of La Liga in mind, imo. I loved La Liga, back in the day were there was competition. An Atlético/Real derby you say? Right now, Atlético will most likely get trumped big time, just like they got screwed by Barça. The argument of a two horse race looking weak? Are you for real?
Barcelona scored 22 goals in 4 matches, I mean, really, that's an average of over 5 goals/game. Madrid have an average of 4/game, which is lower but it's still impressive. Betis beat weak teams, Malaga maybe the exception, but they'll get blown away, just like everybody else. Betis is topping the league, sure, just like Valencia were at this stage last season. Do I need to remind you of the huge gap between 2nd and 3rd place last season?
And you may be happy watching teams compete for 3-7th place, but I'm certainly not. It used to be a very interesting league to watch, because every position 1-20 was pretty much up for grabs. Not so long ago, Depor won it once and they were runners-up twice on the next two seasons. Valencia won it a couple times, and Real Sociedad nicked second place what, 10 years ago?
But right now, as far as I'm concerned, La Liga ist tot. Heil the Bundesliga.
Barcelona scored 22 goals in 4 matches, I mean, really, that's an average of over 5 goals/game. Madrid have an average of 4/game, which is lower but it's still impressive. Betis beat weak teams, Malaga maybe the exception, but they'll get blown away, just like everybody else. Betis is topping the league, sure, just like Valencia were at this stage last season. Do I need to remind you of the huge gap between 2nd and 3rd place last season?
And you may be happy watching teams compete for 3-7th place, but I'm certainly not. It used to be a very interesting league to watch, because every position 1-20 was pretty much up for grabs. Not so long ago, Depor won it once and they were runners-up twice on the next two seasons. Valencia won it a couple times, and Real Sociedad nicked second place what, 10 years ago?
But right now, as far as I'm concerned, La Liga ist tot. Heil the Bundesliga.
They didn't beat Malaga, it was Mallorca, which only solidifies your point. I wouldn't be so confident about the Bundesliga though, right now it looks like it could turn into a 1 horse race.
Yeah, sorry, meant to say Mallorca. And the Bundesliga looks pretty much in Bayern's hands, but I've grown a soft spot for Gladbach and I can see them doing well. One could call their victory over Bayern lucky (I certainly would!) but they've been doing well ever since, and in recent years, if there's been a constant in the Bundesliga is that a team can finish pretty much anywhere.
Not so long ago Barce/Madrid dominated in the 90's and it didn't last.
Atletico broke the dominance of Madrid/Barce then and won it in 95-96 when everyone said it was impossible to get in the top 2.
Valencia won it twice in the 2000's against the odds of the Galactico's and a talented Barce, who's to say they can't do it again?
I have an idealised opinion on La Liga?
Maybe it's because I watch most of the games and know the clubs situations well, you can't judge a league based on two teams that arguably would monopolize other leagues. As for the average goals per game, before the Barce game Atleti had the best defensive record in La Liga stats can be deceiving. The competition factor you're talking about has been the same for the past 20 years, this isn't a new found criticism of La Liga. You have to understand everything from the culture to the structure of the league to understand just how good the quality is.
Barce are essentially a National Team in themselves as are the Basque club of Bilbao. These aren't just football clubs these are peoples clubs, everyone feels connected to them from the vendor outside to the guy down the street selling special food on matchday. The link of 'basque' and 'catalan' is alot stronger than the links English fans feel.
You need to put perspective on Barce beating Villareal and Atletico (At home), Villareal never turned up and played a system that played into Guardiola's hands and Manzano got it all wrong last night.
You can't just talk down a league for being a 2 club league 4 games into the season when you don't really appreciate the league. Essentially what I'm saying is I don't think anyone has the right to criticize La Liga for being a 2 club league and nothing beyond that until they watch a few non FCB/RM games.
Since 04 there has been the same number of winners in both La Liga and the BPL. If you want stats to tell the story then there's one.
Real Madrid and Barcelona are very vulnerable, away from home. Just as you say Madrid will 'pick it up and get firing' I can argue Atletico/Valencia will start firing just as hard.
Atletico Madrid have spent in excess of 60 million euro's and Malaga around the same, how you can say the gaps getting bigger and the quality of the league is dwindling is beyond me. Even Bilbao spent some money, unheard of, on Herrera for 7m euros. The league's quality is there throughout that's indisputable. What are you asking for exactly? Malaga to spend an extra 60m to close the gap? Atletico to bankrupt themselves? Madrid to stop spending? Barce to stop being so good?
Atletico broke the dominance of Madrid/Barce then and won it in 95-96 when everyone said it was impossible to get in the top 2.
Valencia won it twice in the 2000's against the odds of the Galactico's and a talented Barce, who's to say they can't do it again?
I have an idealised opinion on La Liga?
Maybe it's because I watch most of the games and know the clubs situations well, you can't judge a league based on two teams that arguably would monopolize other leagues. As for the average goals per game, before the Barce game Atleti had the best defensive record in La Liga stats can be deceiving. The competition factor you're talking about has been the same for the past 20 years, this isn't a new found criticism of La Liga. You have to understand everything from the culture to the structure of the league to understand just how good the quality is.
Barce are essentially a National Team in themselves as are the Basque club of Bilbao. These aren't just football clubs these are peoples clubs, everyone feels connected to them from the vendor outside to the guy down the street selling special food on matchday. The link of 'basque' and 'catalan' is alot stronger than the links English fans feel.
You need to put perspective on Barce beating Villareal and Atletico (At home), Villareal never turned up and played a system that played into Guardiola's hands and Manzano got it all wrong last night.
You can't just talk down a league for being a 2 club league 4 games into the season when you don't really appreciate the league. Essentially what I'm saying is I don't think anyone has the right to criticize La Liga for being a 2 club league and nothing beyond that until they watch a few non FCB/RM games.
Since 04 there has been the same number of winners in both La Liga and the BPL. If you want stats to tell the story then there's one.
Real Madrid and Barcelona are very vulnerable, away from home. Just as you say Madrid will 'pick it up and get firing' I can argue Atletico/Valencia will start firing just as hard.
Atletico Madrid have spent in excess of 60 million euro's and Malaga around the same, how you can say the gaps getting bigger and the quality of the league is dwindling is beyond me. Even Bilbao spent some money, unheard of, on Herrera for 7m euros. The league's quality is there throughout that's indisputable. What are you asking for exactly? Malaga to spend an extra 60m to close the gap? Atletico to bankrupt themselves? Madrid to stop spending? Barce to stop being so good?
The bolded only makes our point stronger. If they had the best defensive record previously, but Barca still scored 5 goals on them, then that only shows an extra gap in quality.
You also talk about how we shouldn't judge the league after a few games, yet i your previous post you say that because Betis is leading and Real lost to Levante the 2 horse race thing has never been less true?
To your last statement: We haven't said anything about Barca or Real Madrid to stop being so good, we're challenging your views saying it's a close league, which it's not.
First of all I'm Basque, and I've still friends/kin back in Spain so believe me, I have a pretty good idea of the relation between Athletic and the community. It's different from Barcelona's, though, who, as a big club, have caught the eyes and hearts of many a spaniard, plus the animosity between spaniard and basque is unrivalled (Although Catalans do resent the spaniards, don't get me wrong, but the struggle between basque and spaniard has a very ****** background).
That aside, let's go back to topic.
Jamie, I have posted those stats while defending La Liga last season, but some things can't be defended anymore. The gap between the top 2 and the rest will grow larger by the year, at this rate. You can't compare this to past years' situations, not anymore.
Unless some things change for the better La Liga will become a 'strong' version of the SPL. I think what I'd ask is quite clear. Less inequality in TV rights, which may not guarantee anything, but it will certainly help close the gap. You claim that Atlético spent 60m - Are you forgetting the fact they sold arguably their two best players, and unless they spent they would be utterly ******? They didn't spend, they merely replaced. Barça on the other hand bought Fabregas and Alexis Sanchez. Madrid got Coentrao, Sahin, Varane... The gap is big, and it's getting bigger.
That aside, let's go back to topic.
Jamie, I have posted those stats while defending La Liga last season, but some things can't be defended anymore. The gap between the top 2 and the rest will grow larger by the year, at this rate. You can't compare this to past years' situations, not anymore.
Unless some things change for the better La Liga will become a 'strong' version of the SPL. I think what I'd ask is quite clear. Less inequality in TV rights, which may not guarantee anything, but it will certainly help close the gap. You claim that Atlético spent 60m - Are you forgetting the fact they sold arguably their two best players, and unless they spent they would be utterly ******? They didn't spend, they merely replaced. Barça on the other hand bought Fabregas and Alexis Sanchez. Madrid got Coentrao, Sahin, Varane... The gap is big, and it's getting bigger.
Ride The Walrus
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Can't be bothered reading through all this text.
I'll weigh in;
Barcelona/R.Madrid will dominate for the foreseeable future, biggest clubs, can't see any other club bar Malaga and those two winning the league in the next 20 years.
Though, Athletic bilbao are my Spanish club.
I'll weigh in;
Barcelona/R.Madrid will dominate for the foreseeable future, biggest clubs, can't see any other club bar Malaga and those two winning the league in the next 20 years.
Though, Athletic bilbao are my Spanish club.
My Betis point and the stats point were don't bring up stats or current form because in La Liga it often goes out of the window, the big 2 Betis point was meant to be delivered with a pinch of irony. The Atletico stat point was simple, La Liga is 4 games old and records at this point are pretty pointless so the average goals stat on Madrid/Barce are fairly irrelevant.
'If you want to judge on current form Betis are going to run away with it'
I don't judge on current form so I wouldn't hold that view. What the Barce 5-0 result shows is at home Barcelona are pretty strong and Manzano has learned that his tactics and selection were completely wrong, nothing more nothing less.
You saying it's not a tight league is just what I'm saying which is people who don't watch the 3-2 thrillers at the San Mames and the non 'big 2' games really don't know about La Liga. The gap between 17th and 1st in 09/10 was 62 points, the gap in 10/11 was 52 points. The league is getting closer by the season and it is really tight in it's individual groups. The gap in the Premier League was 40 points, that's a 12 point difference between leagues. It's not as clear cut and noncompetitive as people think.
'If you want to judge on current form Betis are going to run away with it'
I don't judge on current form so I wouldn't hold that view. What the Barce 5-0 result shows is at home Barcelona are pretty strong and Manzano has learned that his tactics and selection were completely wrong, nothing more nothing less.
You saying it's not a tight league is just what I'm saying which is people who don't watch the 3-2 thrillers at the San Mames and the non 'big 2' games really don't know about La Liga. The gap between 17th and 1st in 09/10 was 62 points, the gap in 10/11 was 52 points. The league is getting closer by the season and it is really tight in it's individual groups. The gap in the Premier League was 40 points, that's a 12 point difference between leagues. It's not as clear cut and noncompetitive as people think.
Ride The Walrus
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Iniesta/Thiago/Fabregas/Masch still there, as well as youth players, and possible signings.
I'm sure they've thought ahead to replacements, both in their youth system, and if they're not up to it; Giorgio Chiellini. Mark my words
TV revenue's like I've said before I'm fairly sure wont help little clubs get bigger or make the league more sustainable. There needs to be LFP regulation and responsible ownership in the league before the TV revenue gets changed.
Atletico re invested most, if not all, of the money they brought in which alot of clubs don't do (Example: Arsenal). They bought exceptionally well and sold exceptionally well, Barce may have strengthened in Sanchez/Fabregas and Madrid with Varane/Sahin/Coentrao but those buys are not going to have an impact on a mid week game between Valencia and Racing are they?
Barce and Madrid buying doesn't guarantee success, everyone thought the gap would get astronomical when Barce signed Zlatan and it didn't quite happen. The gap between the 2 and the rest has actually been shrinking bit by bit and the prophetic predictions of this dominance going on was foretold in the 90's when the pair were dominating the league in the same fashion.
We'll see come January where everyone stands in the table and what the results have been.
That's because TV rights for teams 3-20 are not so disproportionate. And competition where you can only get so far (3rd) is not really a competition. But it's not really the point - La Liga is a two horse race, in the end, nobody remembers who was 9th or 12th, it's the champions who get their name in the cup. And that's how it will remain if things do not change.
---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------
Hadn't read your last reply - I'll tell you what. We'll drop the issue here, come back in January, and if you're right, I'll change my name to Strawb... erm, something.
That's what outsiders and Madrid/Barce fans will remember, yes.
What La Liga fans remember from last season is The Beast saving Malaga, Rossi tearing teams apart for the Submariners and Almeria collapsing under pressure.
Not to mention Osvaldo's season at Espanyol finishing with 74% of his shots on target and a bag load of goals.
All I'm saying is La Liga fans remember more than who finished 1st or 2nd they remember the journey, Hercules looking good at the start but ultimately falling short because of tantrums and bankruptcy is a fine example.
What La Liga fans remember from last season is The Beast saving Malaga, Rossi tearing teams apart for the Submariners and Almeria collapsing under pressure.
Not to mention Osvaldo's season at Espanyol finishing with 74% of his shots on target and a bag load of goals.
All I'm saying is La Liga fans remember more than who finished 1st or 2nd they remember the journey, Hercules looking good at the start but ultimately falling short because of tantrums and bankruptcy is a fine example.
In a few years time, nobody will remember that. Except maybe the fans of those teams, or anyone with a soft spot for those particular players. But in the last case you don't need to like the league, I certainly love Rossi but La Liga... well, my views are there.
luke the blanco
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Totally agree, whereas most guys on this thread and site avidly watch EPL not all who argue against la liga watch it... For us supporters we remember all of the teams and i'm not going to say i remember all the memories but its the same as in EPL... the journey is the same as in other leagues and i know a tonne of Betis and Valencia fans who would argue that the EPL is only defended so avidly because you have no true idea what La Liga is truly about...
And I know a gazillion fans of several spanish clubs who think their league is as competitive as a race between a turtle and Usain Bolt.
Laudrup's bit the dust, I should have said 'by next week'.
The Anzhi job is actually available and he has managed in Russia before at Spartak so that could be a very plausible destination with Carlos as his assistant.
Problem with Mallorca is the people running the club think they have everything figures out, they're in administration and trying to spend £3m on Belgian strikers and Ghanain 13 year olds. If you gave that club an extra £30m in TV money they would not spend it repaying their £180m debts or pay off their immediate creditors. They would either blow it on a striker they can't afford, like Valdez last season at Hercules, or funnel it away into a property company.
El Loco is still unsackable at Bilbao, unless a significant run of defeats in the next 10 games he should be safe. Quique is waiting in the wings just in case he does walk from the job (I think he will walk before he gets sacked).
The Mallorca director phoned up Martin O'Neill and offered him £2k a week and no budget, told him that he (Director) would have complete controls of transfers etc. Pretty sure O'Neill turned him down.
Another candidate was told he had the job, arrived at the training ground to sign a contract and got told he wasn't wanted anymore (3 hours later).
The calmest club in Spain right now is probably Malaga, unless you count Toulalan throwing a 250 guest party on his private backyard/beach.
With your fav novel and pop corn. Its that easy.
I can play as GK and CB at the same time for Barca. I mean not ball playing CB, Limited defender with Cover duty.