Tactical problems

[jee]

The guide I referr is fmscout
Tassotti sets OIs and training.
THe plan. I've had a lot of plans and no one of them worked. My main plan is having 2 tactics: 1 attacking 1 counter (for away and difficult match). When i say attacking i mean scoring goals. When I say counter i mean safe tactic, but not parking the bus only.
I watched like 20 matches but i don't get any info from them Only it seems, no matter who is the opponent, their strikers are a pele-maradona mix. my 2 cd and my defensive midfielder can't stop one of this guys.
It is not 442, it is 4411, you are right.
Anyway, let's try a safe tactic, at least we are going to draw 0-0. The main idea is solid defense, and attacking with counterattacks and/or crosses. The main scorer should be the SS.
Same 4411
I changed from control to counter
I removed play out of defence
I changed my cm-su to dlp-su, so he should hold the position covering the flank.
Changed Fb to support. Flanks covered.
Be more disciplined. Solid defence.
Exploit flanks. I still have 2 wingers an fb support and we planned crosses.
Low crosses. I find them more effective and my playyers are not tall.


The results:
H 0-1 Goal from cross
A 1-0 Goal from cross
H 0-0 Lots of chances missed. My striker is missing a lot, no matter who plays (bacca, balotelli or luiz adriano)
H 2-2 This is exactly what we don't want to happen. Both goals conceeded from crosses
A 2-0. Very nice... Both goals from crosses.


Now we should remember that flanks should be covered with this tactic.
Anyway, Tassotti won't set OIs any more.
I set no OIs.
Let's see.


H 1-0. First win.
A 1-0.
H 0-0
A 4-1.


Ok, that's enough.


Tell me what's wrong because i understand nothing.

 

[vasilli07]

I think you should play it a simple way. Keep your TIs to the minimum and don't use any OIs which could disrupt your tactics.

Instead of just following the guide, why not think of 1 formation you want to use and improve it from there? Copying abit here and there won't help you too much especially if you want to learn to create a tactic. Try your tactics with a test save with FMT as it doesn't has any tactics familiarity.

 

[jee]

Ok.
Let's start from zero (again).
I play with Milan. I have a good team so I'm expected to win most of the matches, so I'll use an attacking tactic because the opponent will often be defensive.
Tactic: 1-4-1-2-2-1
sk-su
cwb-at cd-de cd-de cwb-at
a-de
bbm-su apm-su
if-su if-su
cf-su
control, flexible, shorter passing, be more expressive, roam from positions. Other TIs by default. No OIs.
The plan is attacking, exploit flanks, overlap and crosses. We are supposed to have at least 4 players inside the box to finish.

Let's see:
A 1-2 Very lucky. They had a lot of chances and more possession.
H 0-1. Same chances, same possession. They scored from an own goal after a cross.
H 2-0 Complete domination. We could have won 5-0 but bacca missed a lot of chances.
A 1-0. Bad game. Normal result 3-0.
H 0-1 Same possession, more chances for me. They scored from a penalty.
A 0-2. More chances for me, more possession for them. Scored from crosses.
H 2-1 More chances for me, more possession for them. Scored from crosses.
H 4-0 Complete domination.
A 1-3 Same chances, same possession. Our crosses, nice.
H 1-1
A 0-2 Less possession but more chances for me. Easy win.
H 1-1 We deserved to win. We even missed a penalty.

Conclusions:
- not bad results. 7-2-3. This is more or less what i expect milan can do without transfers.
- Good defense, but i expected to score more. 19-8. Attacking tactic? What?
- if are main scorers
- if and cwb-at nice combination
- CF usually low rates (under 7).
- I repeat: I understand nothing. This is an attacking tactic. Why i'm so solid in defence? Why i'm not scoring more? Why my results away are better than at home?


What do you think?

 

[WJ]

- I repeat: I understand nothing. This is an attacking tactic. Why i'm so solid in defence? Why i'm not scoring more? Why my results away are better than at home?

Are you watching games??? If you did, you'd know the answer to this?

 

[jee]

Are you watching games??? If you did, you'd know the answer to this?

I have already explained this: I get no conclusion from watching games.

My games are:
When attacking:
short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside

When defending
short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside
or
1 guy against my two cd-de and defensive mid. He starts running and shoots. Then goal/outside/gk

How am i expected to answer that questions?

 

[WJ]

I have already explained this: I get no conclusion from watching games.

My games are:
When attacking:
short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside

When defending
short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside
or
1 guy against my two cd-de and defensive mid. He starts running and shoots. Then goal/outside/gk

How am i expected to answer that questions?

What highlights level?

You need to watch games and see the context within them. All you post are results. Where's the context?

The AI could score early and shut up shop for the entire game. They could start off with the bus parked, but in the 85th minute throw people forward and score. Match stats then won't tell you much.

Your question was why you're not scoring more. The only bit of info we have is "short passing, short passing, short passing, cross.". So you're one dimensional and you're crossing into a packed box. What are you expecting? At some point they do seem to crack under the barrage of crosses and you specifically set up to do this, so there isn't a problem?

 

[jee]

What highlights level?

You need to watch games and see the context within them. All you post are results. Where's the context?

The AI could score early and shut up shop for the entire game. They could start off with the bus parked, but in the 85th minute throw people forward and score. Match stats then won't tell you much.

Your question was why you're not scoring more. The only bit of info we have is "short passing, short passing, short passing, cross.". So you're one dimensional and you're crossing into a packed box. What are you expecting? At some point they do seem to crack under the barrage of crosses and you specifically set up to do this, so there isn't a problem?

I watch full games and that's what I see, no matter the opponent. short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside
The opponent does exactly the same. Maybe 1 or two times per game sends a long ball to his striker who suddenly becomes maradona (1 man against 3 players and he scores)

I score more or less depending on how effective crosses are. I conceed more or less depending on how effective crosses are and how often maradona appears.

That's my conclusion.

 

[WJ]

Like I said, you set up specifically to bomb crosses in, so that is what's happening. The players are doing exactly what you asked.

 

[jee]

Like I said, you set up specifically to bomb crosses in, so that is what's happening. The players are doing exactly what you asked.

Which of the following orders make my players bomb crosses?

control, flexible, shorter passing, be more expressive, roam from positions.

 

[WJ]

Which of the following orders make my players bomb crosses?

control, flexible, shorter passing, be more expressive, roam from positions.

The fact that you're attacking with everyone playing somewhat patiently and bombing your fullbacks forward that much. They'll overlap and be in a lot of space. Their role is to cross often. That is what they're doing.

 

[WJ]

I watch full games and that's what I see, no matter the opponent. short passing, short passing, short passing, cross. And then randomly: goal/missed chances/keeper/defence/outside
The opponent does exactly the same. Maybe 1 or two times per game sends a long ball to his striker who suddenly becomes maradona (1 man against 3 players and he scores)

I score more or less depending on how effective crosses are. I conceed more or less depending on how effective crosses are and how often maradona appears.

That's my conclusion.

To bring the thread back to something constructive:

1 - What is your plan for how you want to play? You change a lot, but never do we get a plan for how you want the tactic to function. If you can post that, at least we can point out what will and won't work and what may be unrealistic to expect.

2 - Once you have that vision, it's then much easier to see (especially since you watch full matches) when a player isn't doing what you intended him to do. Again, these specific instances can help shape your tactic into something better.

------

What if you don't have a vision?

There still needs to be some idea of how you can fit the players into a formation. Even if it's not perfect yet. Even if you don't know every role and every duty 100%.

Once you have that base, watch it in action. If you have a 4-2-3-1, as an example, look to see when your MCL has the ball, who his options are. Does he have enough options? If not, can you improve this in any way by changing another player's role or duty? If you have enough passing options, look at who they are. Are they all in separate spaces instead of bunching in one area? Are they in space?

When you lose the ball, pause the game. How many are breaking forward? How many do you have back to stop this? Are there players close enough to take pressure off of those who stayed back?

------

If you can already spot issues, that's more than half the 'work' done. If you're struggling to find fixes for the issues, that's fine and understandable.

What you can do is post the PKM of the match and the time in the match the issues is occurring. We can then download the file and watch the match in FM to see what you saw and help you by showing you what the issue is and what could be done.

We'd still need a screenshot or something of the tactic used though, as you can see more than the match and the match stats.

 

[rockhardo]

First

I have been successful using poacher. I had Ayonze Perez on Newcastle and he was top scorer 4 season on a row. Last season he scored 37 goals in Premier League. In all games together he scores as a poacher ca. 50-60 goals per season. I think its pretty well?

The formation is: 4-2-3-1

FB-SU, LD-CO, BBD-DE, FB-DE
AP-SU, BWM-DE
IF-AT, EG-AT, W-SU
P-AT
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]control or attack, fluid, mixed passing, normal speed, slightly higer defensive line, low crosses, early crosses, exploit flanks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Slight problem is that i usually dot have better possession and i might need help with that?[/FONT]

I also have counter tactic (4-1-2-2-1) when my team is underdog.

 

[WJ]

I have been successful using poacher. I had Ayonze Perez on Newcastle and he was top scorer 4 season on a row. Last season he scored 37 goals in Premier League. In all games together he scores as a poacher ca. 50-60 goals per season. I think its pretty well?

The formation is: 4-2-3-1

FB-SU, LD-CO, BBD-DE, FB-DE
AP-SU, BWM-DE
IF-AT, EG-AT, W-SU
P-AT
control or attack, fluid, mixed passing, normal speed, slightly higer defensive line, low crosses, early crosses, exploit flanks.

Slight problem is that i usually dot have better possession and i might need help with that?

I also have counter tactic (4-1-2-2-1) when my team is underdog.

It'll be better to create your own thread instead of hijacking someone else's.

This can help: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...tics/350220-looking-tactical-help-advice.html

 

[jee]

I've had a lot of plans and i've explained them. No one of them worked as I expected.

I find totally useless watching games. ALWAYS happens the same. The only thing I've understood is that if fm16 thinks your tactic is good, then your crosses will be effective, your long shots will be effective, your gk will make unbelieveable saves and the referee wil show red cards to the opponent.

If fm16 thinks your tactic is not good, then your crosses will go always to the opponent, your keeper won't make a single save, opponent strikers become maradona and referee will show you red cards.

Nothing about movements, passing options... 100% random. Always is the same for both teams: short passing short passing cross. Long ball to striker against 3 defenders and maradona appears. Doesn't matter if i win or lose: it's always the same pattern.

Anyway, i'll try again. Playing with Milan.

THE PLAN: Simple football. solid defence. two attacking systems: direct balls to target man and exploit flanks+crosses.

tactic 442

gk-de
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-su bwm-de dlp-su wm-su
dlf-su tm-at

standard, short passing, overlap

The plan is simple football.
4 defenders, fb should focus on defence but must always support wingers overlapping
4 midfielders, two wings to exploit flanks, one creative but holding position dlp and 1 bwm to help defence
2 strikers. DLF to link with midfielders, tm who should be de destination of long balls and the destination of crosses to finish.

I set short passing and overlap to avoid too many long balls to target man. I've noticed if you have a target man your players don't stop sending long balls, so short passing should compensate this. Overlapping will help us to exploit flanks.

Tell me please what do you think about the plan and if you think TIs, roles and duties are suitable.

 

[WJ]

Players will hoof it to the target man when they run out of options or don't see any options so AGAIN, you may be setting TIs that aren't necessary. Just watch a match to see if it is needed first?

It's not random so stop saying that.

 

[jee]

Hi,
could anybody be so nice to try this tactic and explain me what the **** is wrong?

Thank you very much.


Note: I've watched 10 full matches and I don't find any concrete issues so there is nothing I can fix. Of course I see I'm losing the ball quickly but no idea about the reason. Maybe I'm stupid but there is no info in watching games for me.

 

[jee]

HI,
can anybody help me please? I'm only losing, losing and losing. No matter the tactic, no matter the team.

How do you get info from watching games? What should I pay attention to? My team plays well, but i'm losing consistently so, of course, there is something i'm missing.

Thank you very much.

 

[WJ]

Did you miss post 31?!

 

[Conflictinbanno]

Anyway, i'll try again. Playing with Milan.

THE PLAN: Simple football. solid defence. two attacking systems: direct balls to target man and exploit flanks+crosses.

tactic 442

gk-de
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-su bwm-de dlp-su wm-su
dlf-su tm-at

standard, short passing, overlap

The plan is simple football.
4 defenders, fb should focus on defence but must always support wingers overlapping
4 midfielders, two wings to exploit flanks, one creative but holding position dlp and 1 bwm to help defence
2 strikers. DLF to link with midfielders, tm who should be de destination of long balls and the destination of crosses to finish.

I set short passing and overlap to avoid too many long balls to target man. I've noticed if you have a target man your players don't stop sending long balls, so short passing should compensate this. Overlapping will help us to exploit flanks.

Tell me please what do you think about the plan and if you think TIs, roles and duties are suitable.

Okay, your plan sort of has it's own contradictions and a screenshot would help clarify this a bit better. First issue, you want in defence them to primarily concentrate on defending but to support wingers overlapping, this is a little bit awkward to achieve, a FB won't overlap the winger very often on a support duty (I would say I see it maybe a little more when the LM/RM is on support as well as the FB but if the wide player is on attack then it will very rarely happen), so maybe if you want to encourage it more, you could opt for wing backs on support or maybe opt for a FB on attack.

With your midfield firstly you want the BWM midfielder to help defence, it can work a little bit, but a BWM is much more likely to push out of his position to close the ball down, the DLP will help a little with this as he doesn't roam but when defending near your box, you could see it leave the DLP alone and provide the opposition space, personally a CM/D will be better for this to protect your back four. With the wide two you say you want the two wings to exploit the flanks, why not as a result have one on an attack duty to really exploit the flank? Also I'm not sure why you have used a winger and a wide midfielder, a WM has 0 PI's attached to the role, where as a Winger has dribble more, cross more and some others, have you used a WM because you want him to function differently? Or is it down to personnel and not having a suitable winger on the other side? (I only ask as I have one player in my side who has to play as a WM because he has no pace so I'd rather he doesn't have some of the PI's a winger gets, however I added PI's to him to make him play like a deeper crossing winger without the dribbling aspect.
The DLP is perfectly fine for what you want, someone to create but hold position.
On to the strikers, the DLF/S makes sense and he should do that pretty well (you have other roles that can do that in ways as well but it fits what you have said), the TM however will distract from your want for short passing, players will look for him when they can so they will sometimes ignore the TI in favour of going for the simple short pass sometimes, from what you want though, you could easily look at a role like AF as it should be a target in the box as well as the DLF and could be a target if they go long as he will be on the defence quite a bit.

Next the TI's the short passing one is fine and I can perfectly understand wanting to use that, but like I said, a TM could stop this having an effect. Overlapping is one I would question personally, it can help you exploit the flanks but it depends how you want to do this, as it would encourage the wide midfielders to hold onto the ball until the full back passes them, which as I stated above probably won't happen that often, also players will still overlap and pass it out there without the TI, the TI just encourages it to happen more so I think until you settle on the wide midfielders and full backs I wouldn't use that TI, if you ended up with a formation where your FB's were more like WB's then maybe it could be more suitable.

 

[jee]

Okay, your plan sort of has it's own contradictions and a screenshot would help clarify this a bit better. First issue, you want in defence them to primarily concentrate on defending but to support wingers overlapping, this is a little bit awkward to achieve, a FB won't overlap the winger very often on a support duty (I would say I see it maybe a little more when the LM/RM is on support as well as the FB but if the wide player is on attack then it will very rarely happen), so maybe if you want to encourage it more, you could opt for wing backs on support or maybe opt for a FB on attack.

With your midfield firstly you want the BWM midfielder to help defence, it can work a little bit, but a BWM is much more likely to push out of his position to close the ball down, the DLP will help a little with this as he doesn't roam but when defending near your box, you could see it leave the DLP alone and provide the opposition space, personally a CM/D will be better for this to protect your back four. With the wide two you say you want the two wings to exploit the flanks, why not as a result have one on an attack duty to really exploit the flank? Also I'm not sure why you have used a winger and a wide midfielder, a WM has 0 PI's attached to the role, where as a Winger has dribble more, cross more and some others, have you used a WM because you want him to function differently? Or is it down to personnel and not having a suitable winger on the other side? (I only ask as I have one player in my side who has to play as a WM because he has no pace so I'd rather he doesn't have some of the PI's a winger gets, however I added PI's to him to make him play like a deeper crossing winger without the dribbling aspect.
The DLP is perfectly fine for what you want, someone to create but hold position.
On to the strikers, the DLF/S makes sense and he should do that pretty well (you have other roles that can do that in ways as well but it fits what you have said), the TM however will distract from your want for short passing, players will look for him when they can so they will sometimes ignore the TI in favour of going for the simple short pass sometimes, from what you want though, you could easily look at a role like AF as it should be a target in the box as well as the DLF and could be a target if they go long as he will be on the defence quite a bit.

Next the TI's the short passing one is fine and I can perfectly understand wanting to use that, but like I said, a TM could stop this having an effect. Overlapping is one I would question personally, it can help you exploit the flanks but it depends how you want to do this, as it would encourage the wide midfielders to hold onto the ball until the full back passes them, which as I stated above probably won't happen that often, also players will still overlap and pass it out there without the TI, the TI just encourages it to happen more so I think until you settle on the wide midfielders and full backs I wouldn't use that TI, if you ended up with a formation where your FB's were more like WB's then maybe it could be more suitable.

Thank you very much.

I changed to

Gk-de
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
wm-at cm-de apm-su wm-su
f9-su af-at

And the reasons:

Fb: I don't care if they don't overlap. I can exploit flanks with my wm-at. I also removed overlap TI.
wm: w-su were too attacking, When deffending they don't help fb enough. With wm-at it seems it improved.
cdm-de: I totally agree with you.
apm-su. dlp-su is too static, and doesn't link enough with strikers. I think one of my issues was that strikers were disconnected from the rest of the team.
F9: similar to dlf. Not a big difference.
AF: When playing with a tm i see my players sending stupid long balls.

Now, results are better, but not enough.

I still feel my strikers are disconnected. When deffending I have two lines of 4 men and my strikers waiting and doing absolutely nothing. Ho can i involve them also in defending?
Opponents are creating too many chances. Every match, at least 10 shots, 1-2 ccc. Defence is not solid enough. I don't know why. They create chances from counters and also from short passing short passing short passing cross. There is no pattern.
Maradona issue: a solo striker creates HUGE problems to my cd-de and cm-de. For instance, gilardino scored two goals after facing my 3 most deffensive players in a counter all alone (gilardino against romagnoli,zapata and de jong)
Scoring problems. I don't create enough chances. My teams plays short passing, short passing, short passing cross. Nothing else. Too predictable.
Opponent usuallys sits very deep, so i'm never able to counter attack.
I lose possession (60-40). This is not a possession based tactic, but maybe this stats are too much.

Let me know if you need a screenshot or anything