Tactical problems
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WJ
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Okay, so we get 2 random PKMs. What are they? Why upload these 2 matches? What tactics did you use? Did you make any changes in-match? What issues did you see?
You expect people to take the time to watch your matches for no reason other than to help you, but you can't take the time to read posts properly and respond with something of your own.
You expect people to take the time to watch your matches for no reason other than to help you, but you can't take the time to read posts properly and respond with something of your own.
My view
Just want to share my 2 cents.
I know this is a discussion on tatics.
but FM is more than that. You need the right players. Right morale level. Right training. Right OI (this is more tactics based)
Team need to be used to your tactics.
Team need to trust you as a manager. (depends on your past history when you start the game)
There are just a lot of other factors that come into play.
Not doing well might not be just because of failed tactics.
It can mean a lot of things.
Best of luck.
Just want to share my 2 cents.
I know this is a discussion on tatics.
but FM is more than that. You need the right players. Right morale level. Right training. Right OI (this is more tactics based)
Team need to be used to your tactics.
Team need to trust you as a manager. (depends on your past history when you start the game)
There are just a lot of other factors that come into play.
Not doing well might not be just because of failed tactics.
It can mean a lot of things.
Best of luck.
I agree with all. Fm16 is not only about tactic but it seemed i was missing some fm16 basic principles, so i would be very pleased if you were so nice to tell me if you see any of fm16 basic principles missing in my tactic.
You asked me to post matches and I did. Why this two? The last two matches i played.
I don't see any issue, that's the exact reason why i post them: I wonder if you can see any issue there.
The main problem is, as i said a lot of times, my right central midfielder (most defensive) and my two cd-de get low ratings. THat's the reason why i'm conceeding and allowing too many chances. I don't know why they play so bad. And again, that's the reason why i need help. I posted the matches because you needed more info. I don't know (because i'm a bad manager) if you need anything else. Tell me if you need.
This is a tactic problem, not the players because whoever plays there, gets low ratings. That's why i don't focus (at least for the moment) in other things. It's obvius there is a problem there and it is the tactic.
Morale: I start with great morale every season. Results don't change during the season, despite the moral is low.
training: i train my players in the roles they play. match prep: defesive col
OIs: you guys told me not to use them. If now i should, explain me why.
I used as the most defensive cm: bwm-su, bwm-de and cd-de. I tried with poli, de jong and nocerino. Several combination of these. Results were more or less the same: too many chances and goals conceeded, low ratings.
Again, there is a tactical problem, everything else is working good. I score goals, i create chances, fb and wm play well, my strikers have 7.5 rating average.
Again: the problem are my right central midfielder (most defensive) and my two cd-de
You asked me to post matches and I did. Why this two? The last two matches i played.
I don't see any issue, that's the exact reason why i post them: I wonder if you can see any issue there.
The main problem is, as i said a lot of times, my right central midfielder (most defensive) and my two cd-de get low ratings. THat's the reason why i'm conceeding and allowing too many chances. I don't know why they play so bad. And again, that's the reason why i need help. I posted the matches because you needed more info. I don't know (because i'm a bad manager) if you need anything else. Tell me if you need.
This is a tactic problem, not the players because whoever plays there, gets low ratings. That's why i don't focus (at least for the moment) in other things. It's obvius there is a problem there and it is the tactic.
Morale: I start with great morale every season. Results don't change during the season, despite the moral is low.
training: i train my players in the roles they play. match prep: defesive col
OIs: you guys told me not to use them. If now i should, explain me why.
I used as the most defensive cm: bwm-su, bwm-de and cd-de. I tried with poli, de jong and nocerino. Several combination of these. Results were more or less the same: too many chances and goals conceeded, low ratings.
Again, there is a tactical problem, everything else is working good. I score goals, i create chances, fb and wm play well, my strikers have 7.5 rating average.
Again: the problem are my right central midfielder (most defensive) and my two cd-de
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WJ
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Nobody told you not to use OIs.
As for the 2..... RANDOM..... matches, and that's what they are, I'll go through them as posted.
AC Milan v Roma
The first thing I notice, is that they start of very, very defensive. Defensive mentality, most likely. How are you breaking through packed defences with your tactic? 4 of their back 5 has Defend duties. They do no get forward. You have, at best, 4 players attacking their back 5. You're already outnumbered and you're not even doing anything clever to even things up at all.
Bacca, the DLF/S, is on his own. He's completely uninvolved. ONE look at the stats will show you (although I saw this by watching the first 15 mins on Comprehensive) that he doesn't feature at all. In 60 mins, he made 23 passes. Both him and Bonaventura (the MR - WM/S) do not receive passes.
Why do you not see this? Why don't you attempt anything about it? Honda, the SS/A who is supposed to be the scorer, is more of a creator. He can almost never pass to the DLF/S, because he's just not in space. That means the passes go wide. It's either a through ball to the MR (that never gets there) or a pass to Suso at ML who cuts inside to try and dribble through 3-4 players.
The MR just seems too wide as he's outside the fullback most of the time. The DLF is just not open enough. Hold position to get him deeper?
What do you care so much about ratings? Poli, the BWM/D was actually decent in the first half. In the whole match he had the joint highest avg rating?
The defenders had very little to do.
This is a typical defending situation:
View attachment 174035
Easy then. Not much to do.
This is a typical attack:
View attachment 174034
4 v 8.
Why can't the DR be more involved with runs forward? Why can't the MR be narrower to be a passing option? Why can't the DLF be deeper and more available for a pass?
In actual practice, the SS/A is the one setting up chances for everyone. The DLF for the most part doesn't do much and at best is a target for through balls. This is the opposite of what you intended them to do. Why do you not see this in a match? The SS/A does not have many options when he gets the ball. That needs to change so he can pass to someone and then burst forward to become a goal threat.
The 2nd match, although you won 3-0, is the same thing. The SS/A is the creator. The MR uninvolved. The BWM/D has a very high match rating, contrary to what you claim. The DCs did well and had avg ratings to match, again contrary to what you claim. I have no idea why you posted this match though.
As for the 2..... RANDOM..... matches, and that's what they are, I'll go through them as posted.
AC Milan v Roma
The first thing I notice, is that they start of very, very defensive. Defensive mentality, most likely. How are you breaking through packed defences with your tactic? 4 of their back 5 has Defend duties. They do no get forward. You have, at best, 4 players attacking their back 5. You're already outnumbered and you're not even doing anything clever to even things up at all.
Bacca, the DLF/S, is on his own. He's completely uninvolved. ONE look at the stats will show you (although I saw this by watching the first 15 mins on Comprehensive) that he doesn't feature at all. In 60 mins, he made 23 passes. Both him and Bonaventura (the MR - WM/S) do not receive passes.
Why do you not see this? Why don't you attempt anything about it? Honda, the SS/A who is supposed to be the scorer, is more of a creator. He can almost never pass to the DLF/S, because he's just not in space. That means the passes go wide. It's either a through ball to the MR (that never gets there) or a pass to Suso at ML who cuts inside to try and dribble through 3-4 players.
The MR just seems too wide as he's outside the fullback most of the time. The DLF is just not open enough. Hold position to get him deeper?
What do you care so much about ratings? Poli, the BWM/D was actually decent in the first half. In the whole match he had the joint highest avg rating?
The defenders had very little to do.
This is a typical defending situation:
View attachment 174035
Easy then. Not much to do.
This is a typical attack:
View attachment 174034
4 v 8.
Why can't the DR be more involved with runs forward? Why can't the MR be narrower to be a passing option? Why can't the DLF be deeper and more available for a pass?
In actual practice, the SS/A is the one setting up chances for everyone. The DLF for the most part doesn't do much and at best is a target for through balls. This is the opposite of what you intended them to do. Why do you not see this in a match? The SS/A does not have many options when he gets the ball. That needs to change so he can pass to someone and then burst forward to become a goal threat.
The 2nd match, although you won 3-0, is the same thing. The SS/A is the creator. The MR uninvolved. The BWM/D has a very high match rating, contrary to what you claim. The DCs did well and had avg ratings to match, again contrary to what you claim. I have no idea why you posted this match though.
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Hi,
thank you very much in advance.
Sorry but i don't see any of this issues. Not even now, after you said it, i watch a game and i see great combinations between my ss and dlf. I see my mr involved, with great crosses. Maybe i'm stupid but i don't see this.
Anyway, if my attack is such a disaster, how my team managed to score 5 goals i 2 matches? How managed to create so many chances? We played against Roma, who was the 1 or 2 in the league.
Why i didn't win against roma? Because they scored 2 goals. This a a defence problem. My attack is ok, and the main reason why is say this is because we are one of the top scoring teams in the league consistently.
If my defence is ok, why i concedeed 2 goals?
Note that in this 2 matches my cd-de and bwm-de played probably their best games in the season. Their average rating is below 7.
thank you very much in advance.
Sorry but i don't see any of this issues. Not even now, after you said it, i watch a game and i see great combinations between my ss and dlf. I see my mr involved, with great crosses. Maybe i'm stupid but i don't see this.
Anyway, if my attack is such a disaster, how my team managed to score 5 goals i 2 matches? How managed to create so many chances? We played against Roma, who was the 1 or 2 in the league.
Why i didn't win against roma? Because they scored 2 goals. This a a defence problem. My attack is ok, and the main reason why is say this is because we are one of the top scoring teams in the league consistently.
If my defence is ok, why i concedeed 2 goals?
Note that in this 2 matches my cd-de and bwm-de played probably their best games in the season. Their average rating is below 7.
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WJ
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Then you're not looking.
Are you trolling? You must be. Either that or you're not able to read what I wrote. Your 'combinations' are reversed. The SS/A is trying to set everyone up. That's not how you intended it, so how is that acceptable? The DLF is uninvolved for most of the matches. How is that acceptable? The MR is uninvolved for most of the matches. How is that acceptable?
In the 2nd half especially, you were aggressively closed down and there were very few combinations by anyone.
I never said it was a disaster. You posted random matches and I posted what I saw. You gave NO other info, so I had nothing to work with.
Good for you. You didn't win because they scored 2 goals. Here's an image of the build up to the second:
View attachment 173871
Please tell me you can see the #14 in acres of space. You put Abate at MR, but he's doing nothing. Couldn't you be narrower? Couldn't you ask either the SS/A or MR to mark a midfielder? That unmarked midfielder received the ball here and delivered the through ball that cost you the game.
I never said 'the defence is ok'.
Dzeko, their striker, kept dropping deep and finding space because your BWM/D is far too happy chasing up field to go get the ball. He does that well, but Dzeko kept finding space and held it up well.
If you'd bothered to OI the wide players, maybe you would have defended the 2 crosses better that caused the first goal.
So why complain about it and then post the only two games where this isn't a problem? I'm wasting my time watching these games.
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Hi,
I really appreciate your answers, but please, believe me: if i say i don't see it is because i don't. If i don't give more info is because i don't have it. Maybe it's there but i don't see it. All info i get is from what you say; on my own i only see short passing short passing short passing cross. Maybe i'm stupid, but i never had this problems with previous versions of fm.
I'll start posting some matches and my conclusions. Let's see if it helps me to give you more info.
Milan Atalanta 1-1
I think we played really well. We had a lot of chances and they didn't even cross their half. They made only 2 shots on goal. They scored from a very long shot. We missed a lot of chances. Unlucky?
Udinese Milan 3-1
Min 2 penalty and red card. We didn't play as bad as it seems, but we are a conceeding machine.
Milan Roma 1-1
Equaled game. We played well. For me this is ok.
Genoa Milan 2-2
Conceeding party.
Milan Chievo 2-0
All matches should be like this.
Sassuolo Milan 0-1
We were very lucky to win.
Juventus Milan 3-3
Just watch the game. Total disaster.
This matches display all i say is real: we don't have any problem attacking, the problem is the defence. I don't know what is wrong. I only know i'm conceeding too much and i don't know why.
I really appreciate your answers, but please, believe me: if i say i don't see it is because i don't. If i don't give more info is because i don't have it. Maybe it's there but i don't see it. All info i get is from what you say; on my own i only see short passing short passing short passing cross. Maybe i'm stupid, but i never had this problems with previous versions of fm.
I'll start posting some matches and my conclusions. Let's see if it helps me to give you more info.
Milan Atalanta 1-1
I think we played really well. We had a lot of chances and they didn't even cross their half. They made only 2 shots on goal. They scored from a very long shot. We missed a lot of chances. Unlucky?
Udinese Milan 3-1
Min 2 penalty and red card. We didn't play as bad as it seems, but we are a conceeding machine.
Milan Roma 1-1
Equaled game. We played well. For me this is ok.
Genoa Milan 2-2
Conceeding party.
Milan Chievo 2-0
All matches should be like this.
Sassuolo Milan 0-1
We were very lucky to win.
Juventus Milan 3-3
Just watch the game. Total disaster.
This matches display all i say is real: we don't have any problem attacking, the problem is the defence. I don't know what is wrong. I only know i'm conceeding too much and i don't know why.
Yes but not all.
I didn't touch anything in attack. Maybe my players are not doing exactly what i planned but we are scoring enough. So, if it works, don't touch it.
In defence, i've noted my ss-at and dlf-su were not involved in defending. That means we were defending only with 8 players + gk. What i did is set my two strikers to man marking two of the opponent central midfielders. I though that my two central midfielders could also defend better because we should outnumber the opponent in the midfield.
Well, this was the theory. The result was a complete disaster. Watch Juventus match, it was ridiculous. It is weird because i thougt setting man marking could weaken my attack but it didn't happen.
I also dropped my two central midfielders to avoid space between defence and midfield. I didn't feel any change.
I also set my wm-su narrower in one match (don't remembre which). Then the opponent was outnumbering me in the flanks with easy crosses, so i discarted it.
I'm really disappointed. I think this game is too difficult. You need to be tweaking your tactic every 10 mins. I don't have enough time to do it. I have a job, family and friends. I just want to find a tactic that more or less can work with most of the teams. Note that i bought the game on christmas and i haven't started and real save yet. Last year i set a 4-2-3-1, i had some problems at first but i made some changes and it worked.
Imposible this year.
I didn't touch anything in attack. Maybe my players are not doing exactly what i planned but we are scoring enough. So, if it works, don't touch it.
In defence, i've noted my ss-at and dlf-su were not involved in defending. That means we were defending only with 8 players + gk. What i did is set my two strikers to man marking two of the opponent central midfielders. I though that my two central midfielders could also defend better because we should outnumber the opponent in the midfield.
Well, this was the theory. The result was a complete disaster. Watch Juventus match, it was ridiculous. It is weird because i thougt setting man marking could weaken my attack but it didn't happen.
I also dropped my two central midfielders to avoid space between defence and midfield. I didn't feel any change.
I also set my wm-su narrower in one match (don't remembre which). Then the opponent was outnumbering me in the flanks with easy crosses, so i discarted it.
I'm really disappointed. I think this game is too difficult. You need to be tweaking your tactic every 10 mins. I don't have enough time to do it. I have a job, family and friends. I just want to find a tactic that more or less can work with most of the teams. Note that i bought the game on christmas and i haven't started and real save yet. Last year i set a 4-2-3-1, i had some problems at first but i made some changes and it worked.
Imposible this year.
WJ
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So you watch an entire match and all you have to write is a single sentence? I wrote a very long post just based on one match and it wasn't even my tactical system, nor my save.
You make random changes and you can't be bothered to write anything down, yet expect me to watch matches and maybe guess what they were?
You didn't outnumber the Juventus midfield. They had FOUR midfielders in the centre of the pitch to your TWO. With your strikers marking the other two, it would have been EQUAL. That's what should have happened. Your plan wasn't thought out properly (or at all) and you couldn't have checked in-match that what you did worked. Your strikers did mark 2 midfielders very tight. The other 2 midfielders had all the space in the world to supply the fairly attacking fullbacks or the 2 strikers on attack duties.
In that Juventus game, you quickly went 3-0 up. You must, surely, surely have expected them now to go for broke and throw men forward? Did you do anything about it?
You thought your attacking was fine in the Juventus game? It was ****. All 3 your goals were from set-pieces.
They kept putting you under huge amounts of pressure because you left 2 central midfielders unmarked. Their DL kept surging forward into oceans of space and had all the time in the world to feed Morata and Mandzukic. Count your self lucky that they had sendings off, otherwise they would have run away with it.
---
So to sum up, your defensive plan wasn't thought through properly. Your attack isn't good. You're trying to short pass, short pass, short pass with a 2 man midfield against teams who have 3 or even 4 central midfielders. They are playing a very good short passing game because you're giving them the space to do so.
---
The Atalanta game I also quickly went through as you actually managed to type out more than one sentence about it. For some reason, you focus on the result. Did you not watch the match?
They started the match on a Contain Mentality and 5 players on Defend duties, as far as I could see. They weren't really trying to attack. You were allowed time on the ball, because they gave you that time. Even so, they had 7 shot attempts.
You played well? No CCCs and 2 half chances only.
It looks like you changed something here; OIs maybe? Kurtic was aggressively closed down every time he touched the ball. You didn't attempt to tight mark these midfielders, so while your players started closing down, they left gaps to pass to the next midfielder.
Your goal was incredibly lucky, straight in from a cross. Ordinarily you couldn't find space in the middle, so it went wide where you had to cross. You had 2 players in the box vs 5. Sometimes 3 vs 6.
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You're better off using a better formation if you want to play this way. Short passing against midfields that outnumber you. Trying to press midfields that outnumber you. It just isn't going to work.
I repeat the same things over and over and you either don't read it or ignore it. You can't be bothered to type anything and give out any information regarding thought processes, changes and opinions.
It's lazy. You make changes and they clearly don't work. Players are left in huge spaces and you do nothing about it. Your attack is **** and even after I point out specifically what's wrong, you still can't see it. I have a busy life too. Family, friends, work and 3 hour classes after work. I'm done.
You make random changes and you can't be bothered to write anything down, yet expect me to watch matches and maybe guess what they were?
You didn't outnumber the Juventus midfield. They had FOUR midfielders in the centre of the pitch to your TWO. With your strikers marking the other two, it would have been EQUAL. That's what should have happened. Your plan wasn't thought out properly (or at all) and you couldn't have checked in-match that what you did worked. Your strikers did mark 2 midfielders very tight. The other 2 midfielders had all the space in the world to supply the fairly attacking fullbacks or the 2 strikers on attack duties.
In that Juventus game, you quickly went 3-0 up. You must, surely, surely have expected them now to go for broke and throw men forward? Did you do anything about it?
You thought your attacking was fine in the Juventus game? It was ****. All 3 your goals were from set-pieces.
They kept putting you under huge amounts of pressure because you left 2 central midfielders unmarked. Their DL kept surging forward into oceans of space and had all the time in the world to feed Morata and Mandzukic. Count your self lucky that they had sendings off, otherwise they would have run away with it.
---
So to sum up, your defensive plan wasn't thought through properly. Your attack isn't good. You're trying to short pass, short pass, short pass with a 2 man midfield against teams who have 3 or even 4 central midfielders. They are playing a very good short passing game because you're giving them the space to do so.
---
The Atalanta game I also quickly went through as you actually managed to type out more than one sentence about it. For some reason, you focus on the result. Did you not watch the match?
They started the match on a Contain Mentality and 5 players on Defend duties, as far as I could see. They weren't really trying to attack. You were allowed time on the ball, because they gave you that time. Even so, they had 7 shot attempts.
You played well? No CCCs and 2 half chances only.
It looks like you changed something here; OIs maybe? Kurtic was aggressively closed down every time he touched the ball. You didn't attempt to tight mark these midfielders, so while your players started closing down, they left gaps to pass to the next midfielder.
Your goal was incredibly lucky, straight in from a cross. Ordinarily you couldn't find space in the middle, so it went wide where you had to cross. You had 2 players in the box vs 5. Sometimes 3 vs 6.
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You're better off using a better formation if you want to play this way. Short passing against midfields that outnumber you. Trying to press midfields that outnumber you. It just isn't going to work.
I repeat the same things over and over and you either don't read it or ignore it. You can't be bothered to type anything and give out any information regarding thought processes, changes and opinions.
It's lazy. You make changes and they clearly don't work. Players are left in huge spaces and you do nothing about it. Your attack is **** and even after I point out specifically what's wrong, you still can't see it. I have a busy life too. Family, friends, work and 3 hour classes after work. I'm done.
So you watch an entire match and all you have to write is a single sentence? I wrote a very long post just based on one match and it wasn't even my tactical system, nor my save.
I have explained it a lot of times. I can't write anything else because i don't see anything special. For instance: the match against Roma we talked about a few posts before, I don't understand how you can realize what my players did wrong in the second goal. You are 100% right, but it is impossible for me to see this things during the match.
You didn't outnumber the Juventus midfield. They had FOUR midfielders in the centre of the pitch to your TWO. With your strikers marking the other two, it would have been EQUAL. That's what should have happened. Your plan wasn't thought out properly (or at all) and you couldn't have checked in-match that what you did worked. Your strikers did mark 2 midfielders very tight. The other 2 midfielders had all the space in the world to supply the fairly attacking fullbacks or the 2 strikers on attack duties.
Ok, not outnumber. The plan was not outnumbering, the plan was, at least, not being outnumbered and involve strikers in defence (mainly the second).
Then, what should i have done? I don't get it.
In that Juventus game, you quickly went 3-0 up. You must, surely, surely have expected them now to go for broke and throw men forward? Did you do anything about it?
Yes, I did. I changed from counter to defensive and set more direct passing and pass into space. I thougt if the started attacking more agressive i needed to focuse in defense. Also, they were supposed to close down more (direct passing to avoid) and allowing a lot of spaces (pass into space). Was it a good idea? According to the result, no.
You thought your attacking was fine in the Juventus game? It was ****. All 3 your goals were from set-pieces
My initial plan is solid defence. So, i'm not going to worry about my attacking against Juve playing away. I just expected to draw 0-0. That's why i said attacking was good because i didn't expect to score.
They kept putting you under huge amounts of pressure because you left 2 central midfielders unmarked. Their DL kept surging forward into oceans of space and had all the time in the world to feed Morata and Mandzukic. Count your self lucky that they had sendings off, otherwise they would have run away with it
I don't understand why 2 cm were unmarket. I have my 2 strikers and my two cm. Why are 2 alone? Is 4 against 4. The Dl should be covered by my wm, am i wrong?
So to sum up, your defensive plan wasn't thought through properly. Your attack isn't good. You're trying to short pass, short pass, short pass with a 2 man midfield against teams who have 3 or even 4 central midfielders. They are playing a very good short passing game because you're giving them the space to do so.
I find this very interesting. I assume that a flat 442 doesn't suit with short passing? If so, then it is completely unrealistic. Of course is possible to play short passing with a 442. Although you are outnumbered in the central midfield, you can also short pass to the flanks. Or back.
Anyway, i'm not specially interested in short passing. I just set it because, when i started to build the tactic, it gave me better results.
The Atalanta game I also quickly went through as you actually managed to type out more than one sentence about it. For some reason, you focus on the result. Did you not watch the match?
I focus on the result because football is about results. Anyway, i didn't see anything special during the match. We had possession and created chances. Not a lot, you are right, but i don't care about it. For me 1 goal is enough because the plan is a clean sheet. And, as long as we are scoring, at least, 1 goal per game, for me, attacking is, let's say, enough not a disaster.
And yes, i watch full match. Not always 90 minutes per game, but at least 60-70 mins.
I ask: do you think using 442 is possible to get clean sheets consistently? If it is not possible, tell me, because i'll change the plan or the tactic.
It looks like you changed something here; OIs maybe? Kurtic was aggressively closed down every time he touched the ball. You didn't attempt to tight mark these midfielders, so while your players started closing down, they left gaps to pass to the next midfielder.
I set no OIs. I set my strikers man marking. THe same as juventus.
You're better off using a better formation if you want to play this way. Short passing against midfields that outnumber you. Trying to press midfields that outnumber you. It just isn't going to work.
I find this very interesting. I'll change short passing, ok, but i never try to press midfields. At least, consciusly. Am i doing that? How? With my strikers man marking? With my bwm?
It's lazy. You make changes and they clearly don't work. Players are left in huge spaces and you do nothing about it. Your attack is **** and even after I point out specifically what's wrong, you still can't see it. I have a busy life too. Family, friends, work and 3 hour classes after work. I'm done.
I really appreciate your help, i was complaining about the difficulty of the game. Note that i watch games with a paper and a pen trying to write notes. When the match ends, i think, what are your conclusions? And i'm sorry but i have no clear conclusion. And when i think i have one, it is wrong.
That's why i'm asking for help. I played fm the last, i don't know, 7 years(?) and i never experienced this. That's why i'm so disappointed.
While i was writing all this, i've made some changes in my tactic, trying to match with your advices:
- changed from standard to counter (more defensive mentality)
- changed from short passing to combination
- changed my strikers to dlf-su and af-at. Player instructions for dlf-su: hold position and move into channels. I set Bacca as dlf-su because one of his preferred moves is move into channels.
- Set closing down less and changed the bwm-de to cm-d, to avoid closing down too much.
Are good ideas? Or again, i am wrong? I feel i'm taking shots in the dark.
Don't need an answer, i already know. I've played a match and lost 4-0 against Torino and i've been sacked. Tomorrow i will start a new test save.
I have explained it a lot of times. I can't write anything else because i don't see anything special. For instance: the match against Roma we talked about a few posts before, I don't understand how you can realize what my players did wrong in the second goal. You are 100% right, but it is impossible for me to see this things during the match.
You didn't outnumber the Juventus midfield. They had FOUR midfielders in the centre of the pitch to your TWO. With your strikers marking the other two, it would have been EQUAL. That's what should have happened. Your plan wasn't thought out properly (or at all) and you couldn't have checked in-match that what you did worked. Your strikers did mark 2 midfielders very tight. The other 2 midfielders had all the space in the world to supply the fairly attacking fullbacks or the 2 strikers on attack duties.
Ok, not outnumber. The plan was not outnumbering, the plan was, at least, not being outnumbered and involve strikers in defence (mainly the second).
Then, what should i have done? I don't get it.
In that Juventus game, you quickly went 3-0 up. You must, surely, surely have expected them now to go for broke and throw men forward? Did you do anything about it?
Yes, I did. I changed from counter to defensive and set more direct passing and pass into space. I thougt if the started attacking more agressive i needed to focuse in defense. Also, they were supposed to close down more (direct passing to avoid) and allowing a lot of spaces (pass into space). Was it a good idea? According to the result, no.
You thought your attacking was fine in the Juventus game? It was ****. All 3 your goals were from set-pieces
My initial plan is solid defence. So, i'm not going to worry about my attacking against Juve playing away. I just expected to draw 0-0. That's why i said attacking was good because i didn't expect to score.
They kept putting you under huge amounts of pressure because you left 2 central midfielders unmarked. Their DL kept surging forward into oceans of space and had all the time in the world to feed Morata and Mandzukic. Count your self lucky that they had sendings off, otherwise they would have run away with it
I don't understand why 2 cm were unmarket. I have my 2 strikers and my two cm. Why are 2 alone? Is 4 against 4. The Dl should be covered by my wm, am i wrong?
So to sum up, your defensive plan wasn't thought through properly. Your attack isn't good. You're trying to short pass, short pass, short pass with a 2 man midfield against teams who have 3 or even 4 central midfielders. They are playing a very good short passing game because you're giving them the space to do so.
I find this very interesting. I assume that a flat 442 doesn't suit with short passing? If so, then it is completely unrealistic. Of course is possible to play short passing with a 442. Although you are outnumbered in the central midfield, you can also short pass to the flanks. Or back.
Anyway, i'm not specially interested in short passing. I just set it because, when i started to build the tactic, it gave me better results.
The Atalanta game I also quickly went through as you actually managed to type out more than one sentence about it. For some reason, you focus on the result. Did you not watch the match?
I focus on the result because football is about results. Anyway, i didn't see anything special during the match. We had possession and created chances. Not a lot, you are right, but i don't care about it. For me 1 goal is enough because the plan is a clean sheet. And, as long as we are scoring, at least, 1 goal per game, for me, attacking is, let's say, enough not a disaster.
And yes, i watch full match. Not always 90 minutes per game, but at least 60-70 mins.
I ask: do you think using 442 is possible to get clean sheets consistently? If it is not possible, tell me, because i'll change the plan or the tactic.
It looks like you changed something here; OIs maybe? Kurtic was aggressively closed down every time he touched the ball. You didn't attempt to tight mark these midfielders, so while your players started closing down, they left gaps to pass to the next midfielder.
I set no OIs. I set my strikers man marking. THe same as juventus.
You're better off using a better formation if you want to play this way. Short passing against midfields that outnumber you. Trying to press midfields that outnumber you. It just isn't going to work.
I find this very interesting. I'll change short passing, ok, but i never try to press midfields. At least, consciusly. Am i doing that? How? With my strikers man marking? With my bwm?
It's lazy. You make changes and they clearly don't work. Players are left in huge spaces and you do nothing about it. Your attack is **** and even after I point out specifically what's wrong, you still can't see it. I have a busy life too. Family, friends, work and 3 hour classes after work. I'm done.
I really appreciate your help, i was complaining about the difficulty of the game. Note that i watch games with a paper and a pen trying to write notes. When the match ends, i think, what are your conclusions? And i'm sorry but i have no clear conclusion. And when i think i have one, it is wrong.
That's why i'm asking for help. I played fm the last, i don't know, 7 years(?) and i never experienced this. That's why i'm so disappointed.
While i was writing all this, i've made some changes in my tactic, trying to match with your advices:
- changed from standard to counter (more defensive mentality)
- changed from short passing to combination
- changed my strikers to dlf-su and af-at. Player instructions for dlf-su: hold position and move into channels. I set Bacca as dlf-su because one of his preferred moves is move into channels.
- Set closing down less and changed the bwm-de to cm-d, to avoid closing down too much.
Are good ideas? Or again, i am wrong? I feel i'm taking shots in the dark.
Don't need an answer, i already know. I've played a match and lost 4-0 against Torino and i've been sacked. Tomorrow i will start a new test save.
Last edited:
Are you playing the full FM? Is your tactic familiarity maxed out? Milan brought in quite a number of new players so team gelling could be an issue as well. And you also have the manager rep issue to contend with in your 1st few seasons.
Have you tried managing another team to test your tactics fundamentals? Maybe a different league, a team with few transfers this season.
Have you tried managing another team to test your tactics fundamentals? Maybe a different league, a team with few transfers this season.
WJ
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You're not supposed to get to the END of a match and try to remember conclusions. Take note of what's happening right in front of you... as they are happening. What's the point of getting to the end of the match and only then think about it; only then try to make changes? It's too late then!
WJ
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Then you're not watching properly. How can you not see the unmarked midfielder? He's unmarked! He receives the ball and no one is even close to him! Pay attention to these things. It's completely useless to watch a full match and not look at what's happening in front of your eyes. You keep staring at results instead of these important factors IN a match, WHILE it's happening, BEFORE the final result.
This is what I mean. There's just no thinking. This is the reason I'm out. I'm not going to waste more of my free time to watch matches anymore.
Your strikers did mark 2 midfielders very tight. The other 2 midfielders had all the space in the world to supply the fairly attacking fullbacks or the 2 strikers on attack duties.
This is what I wrote. So with your 2 strikers marking 2 midfielders and the other 2 in acres of space why isn't there a little light that goes off thinking 'I need to mark the other 2'? You went with the specific man-marking option, so may as well follow through with it. I mean, at the very least, mark the more advanced central midfielder. The playmaker at the back could have been left alone maybe.
You're focusing on how you attack, rather than how you defended. You still left the central midfielders open.
Again, I wrote this:
They kept putting you under huge amounts of pressure because you left 2 central midfielders unmarked. Their DL kept surging forward into oceans of space and had all the time in the world to feed Morata and Mandzukic. Count your self lucky that they had sendings off, otherwise they would have run away with it.
This is why you lost. Again, I told you exactly why.
Hi,
as i said yesterday, i started a new test save.
I decided to start from 0 (that's more or less where we were...), so i set the tactic with no PI, TIs and OIs.
The tactic is 4-4-2 flat
gk-de
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
wm-su cm-de dlp-su wm-su
dlf-su p-a
No instructions. Let's see the issues and then tweak.
My players: Lopez, abate, zapata, romagnoli, de sciglio, bonaventura, de jong, bertolacci, kucka, bacca, balotelli
I lost 0-2 against Atalanta.
Atalanta played a 3-3-2-1-1 defensive and deep
General conclusions:
I didn't play very well but i had more chances. I clearly didn't deserve to lose. I had problems with their wingbacks. I didn't create chances. My strikers were disconnected. They outnumbered me in the middle.
I took the following notes:
Free kick against. I clear to corner. They finish from the corner kick but lopez saves.
Kucka has tried 2 long shots.
They are playing very narrow.
Their two wing backs are alone all the time.
I'm outnumbered in the midfield.
They play out the defence with short passing.
They outnumber my in their box
They find easy passes in the midfield and wing backs
I create no chances
Abate is overlapping good
I keep trying long shots
They play out the defence with short passing.
THey outnubmer me in the midfield.
Easy passes among their midfielders and wingbacks
They do easy crosses but they are not dangerous because their striker is isolated.
I don't have passing options.
Their striker is isolated.
I don't create chances, i don't have passing options.
I could trigger a counter but they reorganized the defense very quick
Good cross from bonaventura and balotelli finishes, but out.
Mi right side creates more than the left.
Abate is good overlapping.
They are losing the ball very quickly.
Their wingbacks are alone.
HALF TIME
Abate is good overlapping.
THeir striker is isolated.
My crosses go to the opponent
My crosses go the opponent because i'm outnumbered in the box
My atacking is focused in the flanks because they are playing very narrow.
Abate is good overlapping but crosses go to the opponent.
They do a short passing combination, kurtic (cm) receives in the front of the box, shoot and scores.
Bacca rates 6.3. Substituted by Cerci.
Bellini (right wing back) receives alone and crosses. I have my two cd and my right fb inside the box. They have only their striker (pinilla) who manages to finish and scores.
Romagnoli rates 6.1. Substituted by mexes.
Kucka rates 6.5. Substituted by suso.
My passes are imprecise.
Now they are trying direct passing and pass into space.
Abate is good overlapping but crosses go to the opponent.
Bellini receives second yellow card.
Their wing backs receive easy passes.
Good combination in my left side. Suso misses the chance.
I have too many players at back and too few in the front.
My passes are imprecise.
My two strikers don't participate.
Good chance from suso after a cross.
Good long shot from bonaventura.
Goog long shot from Balotelli
Good chance from Mexes after a corner kick.
as i said yesterday, i started a new test save.
I decided to start from 0 (that's more or less where we were...), so i set the tactic with no PI, TIs and OIs.
The tactic is 4-4-2 flat
gk-de
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
wm-su cm-de dlp-su wm-su
dlf-su p-a
No instructions. Let's see the issues and then tweak.
My players: Lopez, abate, zapata, romagnoli, de sciglio, bonaventura, de jong, bertolacci, kucka, bacca, balotelli
I lost 0-2 against Atalanta.
Atalanta played a 3-3-2-1-1 defensive and deep
General conclusions:
I didn't play very well but i had more chances. I clearly didn't deserve to lose. I had problems with their wingbacks. I didn't create chances. My strikers were disconnected. They outnumbered me in the middle.
I took the following notes:
Free kick against. I clear to corner. They finish from the corner kick but lopez saves.
Kucka has tried 2 long shots.
They are playing very narrow.
Their two wing backs are alone all the time.
I'm outnumbered in the midfield.
They play out the defence with short passing.
They outnumber my in their box
They find easy passes in the midfield and wing backs
I create no chances
Abate is overlapping good
I keep trying long shots
They play out the defence with short passing.
THey outnubmer me in the midfield.
Easy passes among their midfielders and wingbacks
They do easy crosses but they are not dangerous because their striker is isolated.
I don't have passing options.
Their striker is isolated.
I don't create chances, i don't have passing options.
I could trigger a counter but they reorganized the defense very quick
Good cross from bonaventura and balotelli finishes, but out.
Mi right side creates more than the left.
Abate is good overlapping.
They are losing the ball very quickly.
Their wingbacks are alone.
HALF TIME
Abate is good overlapping.
THeir striker is isolated.
My crosses go to the opponent
My crosses go the opponent because i'm outnumbered in the box
My atacking is focused in the flanks because they are playing very narrow.
Abate is good overlapping but crosses go to the opponent.
They do a short passing combination, kurtic (cm) receives in the front of the box, shoot and scores.
Bacca rates 6.3. Substituted by Cerci.
Bellini (right wing back) receives alone and crosses. I have my two cd and my right fb inside the box. They have only their striker (pinilla) who manages to finish and scores.
Romagnoli rates 6.1. Substituted by mexes.
Kucka rates 6.5. Substituted by suso.
My passes are imprecise.
Now they are trying direct passing and pass into space.
Abate is good overlapping but crosses go to the opponent.
Bellini receives second yellow card.
Their wing backs receive easy passes.
Good combination in my left side. Suso misses the chance.
I have too many players at back and too few in the front.
My passes are imprecise.
My two strikers don't participate.
Good chance from suso after a cross.
Good long shot from bonaventura.
Goog long shot from Balotelli
Good chance from Mexes after a corner kick.
WJ
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That's a start at least. I'm surprised you've stuck with the formation, but you've pretty much re-created the 4-4-2 that hasn't worked for you though. The same problems persist with lack of passing options (something that cam up frequently in your notes) and a DLF that doesn't link up.
Your right side side seems somewhat sorted with the Abate overlap, but I'm still not sure how much your MR is involved.
You mention the left isn't doing much. What are they supposed to do? What can the ML do well? What can he do to be more of a threat? Why not have him as a more attacking option by either adding Get Further Forward or even better, an Attack duty? If you do, consider switching the 2 forwards roles. The Poacher can benefit from crosses by the more attacking wide midfielder and they won't get in each other's way. The DLF can link up (as per me and Conflictinbanno's earlier posts) with the DLP/S and the wide midfielder.
Constant inaccurate passes could be because of team gelling and an unfamiliar tactic, so this should get better with time.
You mention that your crosses are poor. Think about the type of crosses you can use to try and help:
Low crosses are great when your players aren't good in the air or have decent Heading attributes. They can get cleared easily by the nearest defender though, so not a good idea against a packed defence.
Floated crosses are great if you have a tall player capable of out-jumping the defenders. It gives him time (the defenders too though) to get under the ball and compete for the ball, but he must still have the attributes to jump higher and get to the ball over the defenders.
Whipped crosses require capable wingers who has (preferably) the technique and definitely the balance to cross at pace, with pace. The cross will be whipped in, at pace, giving defenders little time to react. Good news against a packed area, but will require attackers with decent off the ball to be in space, anticipation obviously and also very good Heading skills as it will be more difficult to head accurately. These are the most inaccurate crosses, but the aim is to create havoc.
Hopefully some of that helps.
Your right side side seems somewhat sorted with the Abate overlap, but I'm still not sure how much your MR is involved.
You mention the left isn't doing much. What are they supposed to do? What can the ML do well? What can he do to be more of a threat? Why not have him as a more attacking option by either adding Get Further Forward or even better, an Attack duty? If you do, consider switching the 2 forwards roles. The Poacher can benefit from crosses by the more attacking wide midfielder and they won't get in each other's way. The DLF can link up (as per me and Conflictinbanno's earlier posts) with the DLP/S and the wide midfielder.
Constant inaccurate passes could be because of team gelling and an unfamiliar tactic, so this should get better with time.
You mention that your crosses are poor. Think about the type of crosses you can use to try and help:
Low crosses are great when your players aren't good in the air or have decent Heading attributes. They can get cleared easily by the nearest defender though, so not a good idea against a packed defence.
Floated crosses are great if you have a tall player capable of out-jumping the defenders. It gives him time (the defenders too though) to get under the ball and compete for the ball, but he must still have the attributes to jump higher and get to the ball over the defenders.
Whipped crosses require capable wingers who has (preferably) the technique and definitely the balance to cross at pace, with pace. The cross will be whipped in, at pace, giving defenders little time to react. Good news against a packed area, but will require attackers with decent off the ball to be in space, anticipation obviously and also very good Heading skills as it will be more difficult to head accurately. These are the most inaccurate crosses, but the aim is to create havoc.
Hopefully some of that helps.
Hi,
i'm not going to change the formation. Flat 442 and my plan are inalienable. Remember the plan:
Solid defence, easy football. 442
gk
fb. Mainly defensive but also helping attacking if needed.
cd
two central midfielders. One focused in defense one more attacking but still helping defence.
two men on the wings who exploit flanks
two strikers. One big man, scoring and more static. Other smaller, talented, creator, fast...
This is how football has been played for decades. Must work in 99% of teams. I'm not going to move from this.
I'm not going to set an asymetric tactic, so i want two fb to be support and my two wings (or wingmans, here i'm flexible) in support or attack both.
I'm not sure if crosses are poor. Crosses go to the opponent because they outnumber me dramatically inside the box.
I watched another game.
Tactic: 442
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-su cm-de rmp-su w-su
af-at dlf-su
Note i placed dlf and rpm same side. Only 1 TI: slightly higher defence. No PI no OI.
I play away against udinese. My line up: lopez, de sciglio, zapata, romagnoli, antonelli, bonaventura, de jong, bertolacci, suso, luiz adriano, bacca. Udinese plays 4411
My notes:
They are closing down me with high defence.
Udinese have ccc after free kick
Bertolacci is everywhere
They are trying to send long balls and counters.
Bertolacci is everywhere.
Cross by Bonaventura and Bertolacci scores
They are trying direct passes but without any danger
When we are attacking left flank bonaventura has acres of space but my players never see him alone.
Bertolacci is everywhere
My strikers are not involved in defence
They are trying to send long balls and counters.
Dangerous crosses by Bonaventura
My wingers have space to cross
Suso Bertolacci Antonelli combination, this last crosses and luiz adriano scores
Great exploting flanks
They keep sending long balls
I outnumber them in the flanks attacking and defense
They don't have passing options so send long balls.
My flanks are very dangerous
Bacca maybe is not enough involved. He should help bertolacci to create. We are only attacking by the flanks.
They had only 1 chance after free kick. I had 4 shots 2 on goal 1 ccc 2 goals.
HALF TIME
They are pushing forward
Great cross suso, bacca misses.
They are trying more short passing.
Bonaventura chance
They are more open so i find more spaces in the midlle
Luiz adriano, bertolacci bacca combination. Bacca misses.
Their striker is isolated.
Antonelli penalty. They score. 1-2
Bacca 6.7 rating. Substituted by cerci.
De jong low rate 6.6
I substitute antonelli. Abate in, de sciglio to the left.
Not much happening.
They have more space in the flanks. Dangerous crosses.
Cerci seems more involved than bacca
De jong out. Substitued by poli
Great bertolacci cerci combintation. Cerci misses.
They are pushing forward a lot. I have spaces. I send long balls.
Final 1-2
I attach the game. let me know your opinions.
i'm not going to change the formation. Flat 442 and my plan are inalienable. Remember the plan:
Solid defence, easy football. 442
gk
fb. Mainly defensive but also helping attacking if needed.
cd
two central midfielders. One focused in defense one more attacking but still helping defence.
two men on the wings who exploit flanks
two strikers. One big man, scoring and more static. Other smaller, talented, creator, fast...
This is how football has been played for decades. Must work in 99% of teams. I'm not going to move from this.
I'm not going to set an asymetric tactic, so i want two fb to be support and my two wings (or wingmans, here i'm flexible) in support or attack both.
I'm not sure if crosses are poor. Crosses go to the opponent because they outnumber me dramatically inside the box.
I watched another game.
Tactic: 442
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-su cm-de rmp-su w-su
af-at dlf-su
Note i placed dlf and rpm same side. Only 1 TI: slightly higher defence. No PI no OI.
I play away against udinese. My line up: lopez, de sciglio, zapata, romagnoli, antonelli, bonaventura, de jong, bertolacci, suso, luiz adriano, bacca. Udinese plays 4411
My notes:
They are closing down me with high defence.
Udinese have ccc after free kick
Bertolacci is everywhere
They are trying to send long balls and counters.
Bertolacci is everywhere.
Cross by Bonaventura and Bertolacci scores
They are trying direct passes but without any danger
When we are attacking left flank bonaventura has acres of space but my players never see him alone.
Bertolacci is everywhere
My strikers are not involved in defence
They are trying to send long balls and counters.
Dangerous crosses by Bonaventura
My wingers have space to cross
Suso Bertolacci Antonelli combination, this last crosses and luiz adriano scores
Great exploting flanks
They keep sending long balls
I outnumber them in the flanks attacking and defense
They don't have passing options so send long balls.
My flanks are very dangerous
Bacca maybe is not enough involved. He should help bertolacci to create. We are only attacking by the flanks.
They had only 1 chance after free kick. I had 4 shots 2 on goal 1 ccc 2 goals.
HALF TIME
They are pushing forward
Great cross suso, bacca misses.
They are trying more short passing.
Bonaventura chance
They are more open so i find more spaces in the midlle
Luiz adriano, bertolacci bacca combination. Bacca misses.
Their striker is isolated.
Antonelli penalty. They score. 1-2
Bacca 6.7 rating. Substituted by cerci.
De jong low rate 6.6
I substitute antonelli. Abate in, de sciglio to the left.
Not much happening.
They have more space in the flanks. Dangerous crosses.
Cerci seems more involved than bacca
De jong out. Substitued by poli
Great bertolacci cerci combintation. Cerci misses.
They are pushing forward a lot. I have spaces. I send long balls.
Final 1-2
I attach the game. let me know your opinions.
WJ
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That's vague. HOW are they going to exploit the flanks? You've now gone from Wide Midfielders to Wingers. Why? What do you actually want/need them to do?
It hasn't. The formation, yes. This way? No. Traditionally, the 442 is attacking down the wings and quite direct. Yours isn't at all. That's not saying it can't work, but you're not direct and you don't have wingers bombing down the line.
From the looks of it, you still haven't addressed any of the issues I brought up with your 442. You're setting up as if you want to play a sort of possession style. For that you need players to link well.
Your 'notes' don't really say much. It's vague again.
"Bertolacci is everywhere". What does that mean? And are you happy with that?
"My strikers aren't involved in defence". Okay, so? Is that acceptable? Are you changing something? Remember, they're strikers.
"Bonaventura is in acres of space but my players don't see him". This is at least a proper note. Look at why they're not passing. Player in the way? Too far? Too dangerous? Elsewhere you say that he put in great crosses and combining very well with the others, so he must be getting the ball though?