The Chelsea Thread

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I'm not BSing my way out of anything. Torres is ****. If watching him isn't enough, his shitness can be objectively measured. He tried to reinvent himself from finisher to link-up/hold the ball kind of striker, but it didn't really work either.

Has for Spain.

Vicente Del Bosque is no mug. If Torres was as bad as you say, he wouldn't have been picked, and he most certainly wouldn't have been picked ahead of the likes of Negredo, Llorente or Aduriz unless he had at very least SOMETHING tangible to offer. We can debate the relative merits of those players forever, but the point remains that for Torres to even be in with a shout of beating out players of that quality, let alone actually doing so, he must retain quite a bit of quality.
 
Has for Spain.

Vicente Del Bosque is no mug. If Torres was as bad as you say, he wouldn't have been picked, and he most certainly wouldn't have been picked ahead of the likes of Negredo, Llorente or Aduriz unless he had at very least SOMETHING tangible to offer. We can debate the relative merits of those players forever, but the point remains that for Torres to even be in with a shout of beating out players of that quality, let alone actually doing so, he must retain quite a bit of quality.

Sid Lowe had some excellent words to say about Spains #9 and says its the toughest position to play as its the most un-used and has to be involved in other aspects of the game. Something which Chelsea fans slate Torres for as whenever we attack he is always 10-15 yards behind where a striker should be.
 
Has for Spain.

Vicente Del Bosque is no mug. If Torres was as bad as you say, he wouldn't have been picked, and he most certainly wouldn't have been picked ahead of the likes of Negredo, Llorente or Aduriz unless he had at very least SOMETHING tangible to offer. We can debate the relative merits of those players forever, but the point remains that for Torres to even be in with a shout of beating out players of that quality, let alone actually doing so, he must retain quite a bit of quality.

Right, except Fabregas also sometimes starts ahead of those guys and he's not a striker at all. VdB's approach to many things is rather unusual so its hard to draw serious conclusions about how much quality Torres might have retained as a forward. Del Bosque seems to be a lot more concerned about backroom politics and mantaining group coherence then most managers, which is why (well-liked) Reina is always in the squad even though logically you would take younger 3rd goalkeeper so they can smell big tournament.
 
Hey there, Rafa ;)

Incidentally, saying that Torres is **** isn't an objective truth. There is no "****-o-meter" that we can consult that would prove this. Yes, we can look at his goal output etc but this doesn't necessarily accurately predict what his performances at the WC are going to be like.

As for Villa - how many times have we seen players who are "old" play brilliantly at international tournaments? You only have to look at any seemingly perpetually ageing Italy squad to see examples of this.

Tl;dr, don't underestimate world champions

Or the seemingly perpetually ageing Miroslav Klose to see an example of this.
 
Or the seemingly perpetually ageing Miroslav Klose to see an example of this.

Then again, I'm pretty sure players who are about to enter peak of their career, don't decide to become pensioners in MLS.
 
It's pretty unbelievable that people are arguing that Torres' is a good player ....
 
I'm not BSing my way out of anything. Torres is ****. If watching him isn't enough, his shitness can be objectively measured. He tried to reinvent himself from finisher to link-up/hold the ball kind of striker, but it didn't really work either.

How does one objectively measure a player's effectiveness? You'll have to enlighten us because you appear to be the only one who can do it.
 
Right, except Fabregas also sometimes starts ahead of those guys and he's not a striker at all. VdB's approach to many things is rather unusual so its hard to draw serious conclusions about how much quality Torres might have retained as a forward. Del Bosque seems to be a lot more concerned about backroom politics and mantaining group coherence then most managers, which is why (well-liked) Reina is always in the squad even though logically you would take younger 3rd goalkeeper so they can smell big tournament.

Fabregas starts ahead of those guys sometimes because he's essentially a forward anyway now. But that's irrelevant; Fabregas plays very well as a striker, so it's unsurprising that he occasionally plays there, and moreover it's not a slight on Torres given that Fabregas excels as a striker for Spain. If Del Bosque was playing Fabregas there and he'd never even played as a striker before AND was terrible AND he kept on getting started there, then perhaps you'd have a point. As it is, Fabregas - a better player than Torres - occasionally being played ahead of Torres in a position he's very familiar with and performs very well in (in a different style of role as well) is entirely fair.

You're right about Del Bosque's team building policy, but it's been repeated so often now it's gotten to the point where people assume he'd just leave out quality players in favour of worse ones just because of that, which isn't the case at all. Taking Pepe Reina, a third choice keeper whose only job is pretty much to maintain squad harmony, is a whole world away from taking a striker who could reasonably be expected to start. This is especially true when you consider that Spain are already taking a young keeper in De Gea.

Frankly, who in the Spain squad can we reasonably say only got in because of Del Bosque not wanting to leave any 'squad harmony' guys out? Raul Albiol, maybe, but he's a very experienced defender in his prime who's had an excellent season for Napoli. David Villa, perhaps, but he's a **** of a player for the big occasion and has a fantastic international strike rate, as well as being able to play anywhere in the front three or even just behind. Apart from that, the only other possibility is Torres, and if we're using just him as an example of Del Bosque taking players on squad harmony basis rather than quality, then it's a pretty shaky argument, especially when you consider he left out stalwarts like Arbeloa, Jesus Navas, Llorente and Negredo.

I don't buy the argument that Del Bosque would sacrifice quality for harmony one bit, not in regards to Torres. The reason he's going is because he plays well for Spain, fulfils an important role that Spain benefit from better than the alternatives (Llorente isn't mobile enough and doesn't dribble like Torres, Soldado's had a truly terrible season and is only a goal poacher anyway, Aduriz never seems to get a chance at international level and is even older than Villa, which by your book apparently makes him incapable of doing anything other than falling asleep and ******** himself) with the possible exception of Negredo, who I'm a big fan of and is multitalented. I suppose the major reason for not taking Negredo is that his second half of the season was very poor, and that he's probably a bit too similar to Diego Costa, who is a superior player.

Then again, I'm pretty sure players who are about to enter peak of their career, don't decide to become pensioners in MLS.

That counts for absolutely nothing towards their quality. Players like Rafael Marquez have gone to the MLS and been **** because they've declined massively, whereas you get others like Henry, Dempsey, Cahill and so on that have excelled because they're still good players.
 
Rumours of fabregas coming in are starting to pick up pace. Would be delighted if he was to join.
 
Rumours of fabregas coming in are starting to pick up pace. Would be delighted if he was to join.

I wouldn't read too much into it. This'll run all summer, because regardless of who he goes to it won't happen until after the World Cup (I'd say, anyway). About six clubs have already been 'strongly linked' after all. :P
 
I wouldn't read too much into it. This'll run all summer, because regardless of who he goes to it won't happen until after the World Cup (I'd say, anyway). About six clubs have already been 'strongly linked' after all. :P

Nah not going to get too excited but potentially having matic and Fabregas in central midfield makes me want to believe it's true haha
 
So franks leaving chelsea premiership will not be the same without him in it very special player especially at the peak of his powers
 
That's very easy. You check if your striker has less goals then Liverpool defenders. If he does, he's ****.

In other words, no you don't know the secret to objectively measuring a player's effectiveness. Instead you're going to take your own subjective notions of what makes a good striker and pretend that they're more than that.
 
It's time to say goodbye to Chelsea football clubs greatest ever player :( thank you for the memories legend we will never see another player like you at the club again. Hopefully Frank is given a testimonial and if so there is no doubt I will attend.
 
If Del Bosque was playing Fabregas there and he'd never even played as a striker before AND was terrible AND he kept on getting started there, then perhaps you'd have a point.

If you tried to twist this a bit more your keyboard would bend. Del Bosque plays Fabregas, a midfielder, as a striker ahead of Torres, and actually sees is as viable or even superior alternative. That's exactly the point.

Frankly, who in the Spain squad can we reasonably say only got in because of Del Bosque not wanting to leave any 'squad harmony' guys out?David Villa, perhaps, but he's a **** of a player for the big occasion and has a fantastic international strike rate

Except most of it was years ago. When was the last time he even scored for Spain vs. serious opponent.

I don't buy the argument that Del Bosque would sacrifice quality for harmony one bit, not in regards to Torres. The reason he's going is because he plays well for Spain, fulfils an important role that Spain benefit from better than the alternatives (Llorente isn't mobile enough and doesn't dribble like Torres, Soldado's had a truly terrible season and is only a goal poacher anyway, Aduriz never seems to get a chance at international level and is even older than Villa, which by your book apparently makes him incapable of doing anything other than falling asleep and ******** himself) with the possible exception of Negredo, who I'm a big fan of and is multitalented. I suppose the major reason for not taking Negredo is that his second half of the season was very poor, and that he's probably a bit too similar to Diego Costa, who is a superior player.

You're making it all far too binary. There's plenty of expamples of how Torres stature helps him stay in the squad. Del Bosque took Torres straight after injury to 2010 World Cup and continued to play him even though he was clearly not match fit. He played him in Euro 2012 despite the fact Negredo, Lorrente, Soldado all had great seasons. Reputation is not the only thing that allows Torres to make the squad, but it does help him.

Also, Torres dribbling, really? He can't dribble his way out of a toilet.

That counts for absolutely nothing towards their quality. Players like Rafael Marquez have gone to the MLS and been **** because they've declined massively, whereas you get others like Henry, Dempsey, Cahill and so on that have excelled because they're still good players.

It kind of does. Its a retirement league, you go there if you think you no longer have what it takes to really compete the top level. It doesn't mean you're suddenly down to the level of guy from a sunday league, and you can probably still show the young lads a thing or two - just Henry did on his Arsenal-returns. But ultimately people go there if they think their career and ability as a footballer is only going to go down. Di Natale and Klose stick around because they're still pretty **** good. Clearly Villa himself doesn't feel that way.
 
If you tried to twist this a bit more your keyboard would bend. Del Bosque plays Fabregas, a midfielder, as a striker ahead of Torres, and actually sees is as viable or even superior alternative. That's exactly the point.

That's like calling Michu a midfielder. Fabregas has played 10 games as an out and out striker this year, and the rest were all as a floating attacking midfielder just off the striker. It's not like Sergio Busquets has been being played ahead of Torres. Fabregas is an accomplished striker, and one who plays very well there.

Except most of it was years ago. When was the last time he even scored for Spain vs. serious opponent.

Not sure, but then again Spain haven't played very many serious opponents. In the last year the only serious opponents Spain have played are Italy (Villa not picked due to injury), Chile (rested), Brazil in the Confed. Cup final (on the bench) and Uruguay (rested). Lambasting him for not scoring when he's not played any games is farcical.

You're making it all far too binary. There's plenty of expamples of how Torres stature helps him stay in the squad. Del Bosque took Torres straight after injury to 2010 World Cup and continued to play him even though he was clearly not match fit. He played him in Euro 2012 despite the fact Negredo, Lorrente, Soldado all had great seasons. Reputation is not the only thing that allows Torres to make the squad, but it does help him.

You're just coming up with reasons and avoiding the obvious one. The main reason Torres has been played is because he is GOOD. The 2010 World Cup he was short of fitness, but Del Bosque himself said at the time that Torres, despite his injury, always made it hard for the opposition defenders, mostly because of his range of skills. That's why he got the main striking role ahead of Llorente and notably a prime David Villa. There was plenty of talk at the time about dropping Torres, but Del Bosque kept him because he made the team function better. It's not like there hasn't been a precedent for including cohesive strikers over goalscoring ones, either: Stephane Guivarc'h was one of France's most important players, after all.

He played in Euro 2012 for the same reason. Soldado didn't know what passing was, Llorente was too flat-footed and Negredo flattered to deceive at international level. Torres just worked better, and Del Bosque recognised that.

Also, Torres dribbling, really? He can't dribble his way out of a toilet.

He can, though.

It kind of does. Its a retirement league, you go there if you think you no longer have what it takes to really compete the top level. It doesn't mean you're suddenly down to the level of guy from a sunday league, and you can probably still show the young lads a thing or two - just Henry did on his Arsenal-returns. But ultimately people go there if they think their career and ability as a footballer is only going to go down. Di Natale and Klose stick around because they're still pretty **** good. Clearly Villa himself doesn't feel that way.

Or he just would like one last pay day to end his career. I know which I think is more likely, especially given that by most peoples' standards Villa had a good season.
 
It's time to say goodbye to Chelsea football clubs greatest ever player :( thank you for the memories legend we will never see another player like you at the club again. Hopefully Frank is given a testimonial and if so there is no doubt I will attend.

A bit harsh on legends like Osgood, Kerry, Bobby, Ron etc. But I see what you mean. Absolute legend for this club, absolutely love the man and wish him all the best and hope he'll be at the club someday as a coach.
 
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