The Chelsea Thread

[sunilvk7]

He didnt drop deep against us, he merely drifted in to the channel and let Gerrard through.

Exactly, Drogba is a completely different type of forward, thats why it worked. Which was exactly my point. Direct balls into a physical player who drops deep. Which suits Drogba, and not Torres.

And its nothing to with attitude. Torres has been told to lead the line, if you actually look back earlier in the season, he did try dropping deep, and it left them with no presence forward, and he was told to stay up front. Its not his game to drop deep, its not what you ask him to do. The once place Torres hasn't been lacking is work rate and approach.

Ok, let me put it like this, Torres dropped deep and to the wide areas. He made LB look like mug twice or thrice beating with skills. I was luck WTF has he done (He did 360 to beat 2 players I think).

Point about Drogba is, he is a target man also when things are not working he drops deep. Saying direct balls to the physical player is an insult to Drogba. He received ball to the feet, did flick ons, beat his man with power and skills and made others around him play and brought them into the game. Its not just lumping ball forward. Even at the start of last season we saw Drogba doing this and in 2009-10 he excelled in everything. Point is when things are not going well, players should try something else rather than sticking to one position.

See third point is something we can speculate. We have no idea what AVB has told him, its not like AVB gave his team talk in public. If he did job as AVB told he would have played second half.

When team is moving the ball and creating you need player in the box, when the team is not able to string passes and wants some help in the midfield, thats when you need your strikers to drop and help them.

This will go no where though, at the end of the day Torres was poor yesterday (For whatever reasons) and AVB took him off. If like people said it was for lack of service then he should have changed his midfield but he didn't see the need for it.

 

[sunilvk7]

The once place Torres hasn't been lacking is work rate and approach.

I'm not saying anything about his work rate. When things are not going well, when you are not getting enough touches on the ball then it is common sense to drop deep and get involved in the game rather than getting isolated which is exactly he did yesterday.

 

[Mike.]

Ok, let me put it like this, Torres dropped deep and to the wide areas. He made LB look like mug twice or thrice beating with skills. I was luck WTF has he done (He did 360 to beat 2 players I think).

Point about Drogba is, he is a target man also when things are not working he drops deep. Saying direct balls to the physical player is an insult to Drogba. He received ball to the feet, did flick ons, beat his man with power and skills and made others around him play and brought them into the game. Its not just lumping ball forward. Even at the start of last season we saw Drogba doing this and in 2009-10 he excelled in everything. Point is when things are not going well, players should try something else rather than sticking to one position.

See third point is something we can speculate. We have no idea what AVB has told him, its not like AVB gave his team talk in public. If he did job as AVB told he would have played second half.

When team is moving the ball and creating you need player in the box, when the team is not able to string passes and wants some help in the midfield, thats when you need your strikers to drop and help them.

This will go no where though, at the end of the day Torres was poor yesterday (For whatever reasons) and AVB took him off. If like people said it was for lack of service then he should have changed his midfield but he didn't see the need for it.

I will make it really really simple.

Firstly dropping deep into the wide areas = moving into channels. Which is what he did all yesterday.

Torres first and foremost relies on quick split balls through the middle, or passes into the aforementioned channels.

Chelsea were unable to create a platform and play these kind of passes, due to their own poor personal play, and the fact that only Mata is really capable of this kind of play, the rest of midfield is very functional.

What Chelsea do well is the long direct pass into a powerful forward, that is what their midfield was built for before AVB. (Direct ball into Drogba is not an insult, because that is exactly what they did second half. )

Therefore you remove Torres, and play Drogba to accomodate your weaknesses in midfield. He cannot change the midfield because they dont possess the players to create more of the first kind of play.

On the third point, dig into articles from November.

 

[sunilvk7]

I will make it really really simple.

Firstly dropping deep into the wide areas = moving into channels. Which is what he did all yesterday.

"Torres dropped deep and to the wide areas.". That's what he did or used to do it.

Torres first and foremost relies on quick split balls through the middle, or passes into the aforementioned channels.

Chelsea were unable to create a platform and play these kind of passes, due to their own poor personal play, and the fact that only Mata is really capable of this kind of play, the rest of midfield is very functional.

How many times have we seen Torres pouncing on quick split balls in the last 1 year? You can't blame team all the time for Torres. Even with Spain he did sweet **** all, I dont think there is any team that can better them in creating (maybe apart from Germany).

What Chelsea do well is the long direct pass into a powerful forward, that is what their midfield was built for before AVB. (Direct ball into Drogba is not an insult, because that is exactly what they did second half. )

Therefore you remove Torres, and play Drogba to accomodate your weaknesses in midfield. He cannot change the midfield because they dont possess the players to create more of the first kind of play.

Then I think I saw different midfield against Us at OT when they ripped open our defense for fun. No they removed Torres to play better player and who can at least score a goal, if not someone who can bring other to play. They removed probably worst player on the pitch to improve the team, the player who can help the team if things are not going according to the plan by altering his game rather than getting isolated.

On the third point, dig into articles from November.

I have not read anything like that, well forget all this, even our own Hernandez drops little deep, plays one two to get involved in the game when he fail to move the ball. That's what a forward should be doing. He can't stick with "I will only stay at the shoulders of the defenders".

I haven't seen any players who has been nothing but poor to average getting so many excuses with entire blame on the team. Lack of service is a valid excuse for any forward, but not for a year long. He has missed simplest of chances and even the team was scoring he was not able to. That says to me that Torres was the player under performing (even team too, but not to an extent Torres is).

 

[Mike.]

"Torres dropped deep and to the wide areas.". That's what he did or used to do it.


How many times have we seen Torres pouncing on quick split balls in the last 1 year? You can't blame team all the time for Torres. Even with Spain he did sweet **** all, I dont think there is any team that can better them in creating (maybe apart from Germany).



Then I think I saw different midfield against Us at OT when they ripped open our defense for fun. No they removed Torres to play better player and who can at least score a goal, if not someone who can bring other to play. They removed probably worst player on the pitch to improve the team, the player who can help the team if things are not going according to the plan by altering his game rather than getting isolated.



I have not read anything like that, well forget all this, even our own Hernandez drops little deep, plays one two to get involved in the game when he fail to move the ball. That's what a forward should be doing. He can't stick with "I will only stay at the shoulders of the defenders".

I haven't seen any players who has been nothing but poor to average getting so many excuses with entire blame on the team. Lack of service is a valid excuse for any forward, but not for a year long. He has missed simplest of chances and even the team was scoring he was not able to. That says to me that Torres was the player under performing (even team too, but not to an extent Torres is).

Oh for gods sake. I am talking about this game, not any other. Everything else is irrelevant. And they didnt rip through the midfield. 2 goals game from a defensive error, one from a cross, their attacks came from the flank and set pieces

 

[sunilvk7]

Ok Mike, Whose mistake is that if a player gets only 15 touches on the ball and gets completely isolated from the game?

IMO its the player who gets isolated.

 

[Mike.]

Ok Mike, Whose mistake is that if a player gets only 15 touches on the ball and gets completely isolated from the game? IMO its the player who gets isolated.

Then your opinion is massively flawed, unless you bother to look at why he was isolated. Which is what i pointed out already. Torres was never going to physically bully both of their centre halves, coming deep and central would be a no go. Chelsea as a side could not exploit wide of behind because of their midfield. So you bring on a player who covers the weaknesses of your creative play. Torres yesterday merely exposed the overall weaknesses of their team play

 

[Mike.]

For the record i could go on and on about what Torres is doing wrong, but that wasn't the issue yesterday

 

[sunilvk7]

Then your opinion is massively flawed, unless you bother to look at why he was isolated. Which is what i pointed out already. Torres was never going to physically bully both of their centre halves, coming deep and central would be a no go.

Well I know whose opinion is massively flawed here btw. Thanks for the answer.

So when is it Fernando Torres's fault when he gets isolated? Leave about this game, I'm asking in general.

 

[Mike.]

Ok Mike, Whose mistake is that if a player gets only 15 touches on the ball and gets completely isolated from the game?

IMO its the player who gets isolated.

Also when i say your, i mean you plural, as in anyone who doesnt look at why

 

[sunilvk7]

Also when i say your, i mean you plural, as in anyone who doesnt look at why

Ok, tell me when can Torres be at fault when he gets isolated.?

 

[Mike.]

Well I know whose opinion is massively flawed here btw. Thanks for the answer.

So when is it Fernando Torres's fault when he gets isolated? Leave about this game, I'm asking in general.

Most of the time he isnt getting isolated, but his complete lack of confidence, leaves him struggling when under heavy pressure centrally, he lacks the confidence in his first time shot, or difficult first touch. As ive said before, not the same situation as yesterdays game

 

[Mike.]

Ok, tell me when can Torres be at fault when he gets isolated.?

A striker should never really be left isolated by his side. You know how a certain striker plays, the midfield are the link of the side, their onus is to link the side. Chelsea's midfield lack the ability right now to that with Torres, unless Mata is playing directly behind him

 

[sunilvk7]

A striker should never really be left isolated by his side. You know how a certain striker plays, the midfield are the link of the side, their onus is to link the side. Chelsea's midfield lack the ability right now to that with Torres, unless Mata is playing directly behind him

Yes, Striker should never be left isolated, but if we see Torres of old and yesterday's Torres you see what he was lacking. Confidence to get involved. Even when Liverpool midfield was not up to the task he used to get lot more involved. That's the reason I expected more from him.

p.s: I'm not having a go at Torres. I did believe it was the midfield problem, but when we have seen Torres missing simplest of chances or half chances you know something is not right with the player. What you said is more suited to Darren bent type of player not Torres tbh. He has more to his game to get involved, like I said his confidence is shot into pieces. That's why he didn't get involve more than he did.

 

[Mike.]

Yes, Striker should never be left isolated, but if we see Torres of old and yesterday's Torres you see what he was lacking. Confidence to get involved. Even when Liverpool midfield was not up to the task he used to get lot more involved. That's the reason I expected more from him.

p.s: I'm not having a go at Torres. I did believe it was the midfield problem, but when we have seen Torres missing simplest of chances or half chances you know something is not right with the player. What you said is more suited to Darren bent type of player not Torres tbh. He has more to his game to get involved, like I said his confidence is shot into pieces. That's why he didn't get involve more than he did.

But he was involved, he actually made the right runs, and wasnt picked out.
Liverpool still provided him with better service than yesterday. The midfield was appauling last night, Mata excluded. I ve already talked about what he should be doing when he gets the ball, but you cannot hold him at fault for the manner in which he doesnt recieve the ball, not when he's working hard the way he is now. If Torres was working this hard for United, He'd be back by now.

 

[GodCubed]

Yes, Striker should never be left isolated, but if we see Torres of old and yesterday's Torres you see what he was lacking. Confidence to get involved. Even when Liverpool midfield was not up to the task he used to get lot more involved. That's the reason I expected more from him.

A striker can only get so involved. You can expect Rooney to peel off into midfield and offer a short counter attacking option or win the ball back. He's a deep-lying creative forward, it's what he does. Asking Torres to do it is massively counterintuitive. He CAN do it, but for the love of god wh would you want him to? It robs him of his strengths: pace, power and off the shoulder intelligence, and accentuates his creative weaknesses. It'd be like asking Hernandez or Darren Bent to do the same. Torres is a better player and more rounded than both of them, but the point still stands.

p.s: I'm not having a go at Torres. I did believe it was the midfield problem, but when we have seen Torres missing simplest of chances or half chances you know something is not right with the player. What you said is more suited to Darren bent type of player not Torres tbh. He has more to his game to get involved, like I said his confidence is shot into pieces. That's why he didn't get involve more than he did.

Yes, his confidence is shot. Asking him to drop deep and away from goal so that he doesn't even have a chance to score is hardly going to send him a message of confidence.

 

[sunilvk7]

A striker can only get so involved. You can expect Rooney to peel off into midfield and offer a short counter attacking option or win the ball back. He's a deep-lying creative forward, it's what he does. Asking Torres to do it is massively counterintuitive. He CAN do it, but for the love of god wh would you want him to? It robs him of his strengths: pace, power and off the shoulder intelligence, and accentuates his creative weaknesses. It'd be like asking Hernandez or Darren Bent to do the same. Torres is a better player and more rounded than both of them, but the point still stands.



Yes, his confidence is shot. Asking him to drop deep and away from goal so that he doesn't even have a chance to score is hardly going to send him a message of confidence.

I'm not saying he should be doing it all the time, but when the times like yesterday he was completely isolated and hardly saw the ball, he can drop little deeper to get more touches on the ball and help the midfield.

He CAN do it, but for the love of god wh would you want him to? It robs him of his strengths: pace, power and off the shoulder intelligence, and accentuates his creative weaknesses

Yesterday he could have played 1000 mins but he would have been isolated. So I dont see any reason why he should stay in the same position waiting to make runs when it was not happening in the midfield.

Well looks like what we expect from Torres is polar opposite, so I dont think we will agree on this subject.

 

[sunilvk7]

But he was involved, he actually made the right runs, and wasnt picked out.
Liverpool still provided him with better service than yesterday. The midfield was appauling last night, Mata excluded. I ve already talked about what he should be doing when he gets the ball, but you cannot hold him at fault for the manner in which he doesnt recieve the ball, not when he's working hard the way he is now. If Torres was working this hard for United, He'd be back by now.

Check how Liverpool played against ManUtd in 2010-11 at OT under Hodgson. They were in tatters, but Torres was way more involved in the game. No way this Chelsea midfield was worse than Liverpool at OT.

That is what he is capable of, in that aspect Torres didn't do what he was capable of.

 

[cfc12345]

Tbh the only times I have ever seen Torres getting service he has scored apart from when he did everything right but missed the open goal against Utd. Against West ham Anelka put him through he scored, against Utd once again Anelka looked for him he scored and against Swansea mata looked for him and he scored. Other then that I have not really seen our midfield look to put him on goal in the year he has been at the club tbh.

EdIt: also his two goals against Genk

 

[Athe~]

He was feeding off scraps up front. Got 15 touches of the ball. That is terrible service. If Danny Welbeck got 15 touches, SAF would have been ripping into the midfield.

While I don't necessarily agree with the analysis posted here, it's not like Torres was getting himself into positions were he could get the ball.