The Chelsea Thread

[GodCubed]

If Ramires can play in the double pivot then why has he not so yet? For both club and country he has not played their so we tried to find an alternative for him which was right wing and he was brilliant their at the back end of last season so he then gets re-called to Brazil squad to play right wing. He does not have the tackling ability or the passing range to play in the double pivot. I fear for us if we stick with the Mikel-Lampard partnership against Juve as their midfield 3 of Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal will tear us to shreds. One of 2 things needs to happen in my opinion, either play Mikel and Romeu in the two or drop another body in midfield.

Why has he not yet for Chelsea? Dunno. He regularly did for Cruzeiro, and then mostly played a centre-ish shuttling role at Benfica. It isn't a case of him not being able to play there.

I don't buy that he's a bad tackler at all. 170 successful tackles in the past two seasons, when being played in positions which don't reward tackling, lest we forget, is actually pretty remarkable. In fact, in terms of tackles per game, he's been your best tackler for the past two seasons.

Playing against Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal is difficult enough, but playing two similar destroyers with no attacking thrust from deep to test Pirlo and no hassler to harry the three of them? Even harder. Mikel and Ramires would be my choice, with Mata tracking Pirlo assiduously to even up the numbers game.

 

[CJACKO11]

Why has he not yet for Chelsea? Dunno. He regularly did for Cruzeiro, and then mostly played a centre-ish shuttling role at Benfica. It isn't a case of him not being able to play there.

I don't buy that he's a bad tackler at all. 170 successful tackles in the past two seasons, when being played in positions which don't reward tackling, lest we forget, is actually pretty remarkable. In fact, in terms of tackles per game, he's been your best tackler for the past two seasons.

Playing against Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal is difficult enough, but playing two similar destroyers with no attacking thrust from deep to test Pirlo and no hassler to harry the three of them? Even harder. Mikel and Ramires would be my choice, with Mata tracking Pirlo assiduously to even up the numbers game.

Now days i just see Rammy as a box to box midfielder, yes he can get stuck in i agree but his best trait is picking the ball up from deep and driving towards the oppositions box. If we deploy him deeper we lose his best attribute which is a huge shame. It's obviously something Ancelotti, AVB, Di Matteo and Manezes think too that he is not as suited to play in the more defensive role.

 

[Mike.]

Now days i just see Rammy as a box to box midfielder, yes he can get stuck in i agree but his best trait is picking the ball up from deep and driving towards the oppositions box. If we deploy him deeper we lose his best attribute which is a huge shame. It's obviously something Ancelotti, AVB, Di Matteo and Manezes think too that he is not as suited to play in the more defensive role.

When I see Ramires, I see a player not too far from Khedira, but slightly less equipped defensively and better equipped offensively. If Chelsea really want to make their system work, he should be playing deeper.

 

[GodCubed]

Now days i just see Rammy as a box to box midfielder, yes he can get stuck in i agree but his best trait is picking the ball up from deep and driving towards the oppositions box. If we deploy him deeper we lose his best attribute which is a huge shame. It's obviously something Ancelotti, AVB, Di Matteo and Manezes think too that he is not as suited to play in the more defensive role.

Wait, who says he has to play a primarily defensive role? Plenty of players capable in a double pivot - Toni Kroos, Ilkay Gundogan, Abou Diaby, Luka Modric, Yaya Toure - are either equally capable at both ends of the pitch or in fact better offensively than defensively. Picking up the ball deep and driving at the opposition box is exactly the kind of thing being the more offensive player in a pivot can help. Toure, for example. In fact, playing him in a double pivot means he's able to do that way, way more often than out on the wing, since he'll naturally receive the ball in deep positions with space in front of him far more often.

 

[CJACKO11]

When I see Ramires, I see a player not too far from Khedira, but slightly less equipped defensively and better equipped offensively. If Chelsea really want to make their system work, he should be playing deeper.

Wait, who says he has to play a primarily defensive role? Plenty of players capable in a double pivot - Toni Kroos, Ilkay Gundogan, Abou Diaby, Luka Modric, Yaya Toure - are either equally capable at both ends of the pitch or in fact better offensively than defensively. Picking up the ball deep and driving at the opposition box is exactly the kind of thing being the more offensive player in a pivot can help. Toure, for example. In fact, playing him in a double pivot means he's able to do that way, way more often than out on the wing, since he'll naturally receive the ball in deep positions with space in front of him far more often.

Isn't that the problem we have at the moment with Lampaerd though, he is a box to box midfielder who gets caught upfield too often. I know it's all about knowing when to go and when to stay etc and if Rammy is caught upfield he will get back quicker than Lamps. In my opinion the best formation to suit Rammy is a 4-3-3 but do you switch formation to suit just one player, course you don't. Like we have tried to make him a winger with mixed results we may have to give him a different role other wise he will end up a victim of this change and inevitably will be sold.

 

[GodCubed]

Isn't that the problem we have at the moment with Lampaerd though, he is a box to box midfielder who gets caught upfield too often. I know it's all about knowing when to go and when to stay etc and if Rammy is caught upfield he will get back quicker than Lamps. In my opinion the best formation to suit Rammy is a 4-3-3 but do you switch formation to suit just one player, course you don't. Like we have tried to make him a winger with mixed results we may have to give him a different role other wise he will end up a victim of this change and inevitably will be sold.

Except Lampard's a different player. Lampard is a tip of a midfield triangle player. Doesn't mean he's useless anywhere else, just that he's easily at his best there. Ramires, on the other hand, is intelligent enough and versatile enough to play lots of different positions well, and this is one of his best. Moreover, as you mentioned, Ramires' work rate and energy is far higher than Lampard's, as well as his pace, and so he'll get back into position far quicker.

 

[Mike.]

Isn't that the problem we have at the moment with Lampaerd though, he is a box to box midfielder who gets caught upfield too often. I know it's all about knowing when to go and when to stay etc and if Rammy is caught upfield he will get back quicker than Lamps. In my opinion the best formation to suit Rammy is a 4-3-3 but do you switch formation to suit just one player, course you don't. Like we have tried to make him a winger with mixed results we may have to give him a different role other wise he will end up a victim of this change and inevitably will be sold.

Ramires is tactically light years ahead of Lampard. as a shuttler he already knows when to pick his runs. Lampard is an out and out offensive midfielder, he isnt thinking about defending the way Ramires/Toure/Khedira does.

 

[CJACKO11]

Except Lampard's a different player. Lampard is a tip of a midfield triangle player. Doesn't mean he's useless anywhere else, just that he's easily at his best there. Ramires, on the other hand, is intelligent enough and versatile enough to play lots of different positions well, and this is one of his best. Moreover, as you mentioned, Ramires' work rate and energy is far higher than Lampard's, as well as his pace, and so he'll get back into position far quicker.

Ramires is tactically light years ahead of Lampard. as a shuttler he already knows when to pick his runs. Lampard is an out and out offensive midfielder, he isnt thinking about defending the way Ramires/Toure/Khedira does.

I am not saying "don't try it" or "it won't work" just mearly stating that managers recent managers obviously believe he cannot do that role good enough.

 

[Mike.]

I am not saying "don't try it" or "it won't work" just mearly stating that managers recent managers obviously believe he cannot do that role good enough.

He'd do it better than Lampard, bear in mind 3 of those managers were/are not keen on dropping Lampard ( actually one did and was vilified for it) at all. and the 4th is often criticised for having an unbalanced mid.

 

[GodCubed]

I am not saying "don't try it" or "it won't work" just mearly stating that managers recent managers obviously believe he cannot do that role good enough.

Or because they felt the balance in midfield was fine. With the likes of Essien and Meireles both having left and part-time CM Malouda being frozen out, there's plenty to suggest that this is no longer the case.

 

[juventus1980]

Looking forward to the game with Chelsea, they look brilliant going forward and have some very exciting players. Although they do look defensivley weak based on watching the Super cup game and a few other games I've seen in the premiership, hopefully our mediocre forwards can take advantage of that.

Some similarities between the two squads: Chelsea's problems with torres and lack of other forwards is very similar to our problem with a lack of star strikers.

 

[Mike.]

Looking forward to the game with Chelsea, they look brilliant going forward and have some very exciting players. Although they do look defensivley weak based on watching the Super cup game and a few other games I've seen in the premiership, hopefully our mediocre forwards can take advantage of that.

Some similarities between the two squads: Chelsea's problems with torres and lack of other forwards is very similar to our problem with a lack of star strikers.

I think Juve will win the midfield battle, but their forwards will fail to take advantage of it.

 

[CJACKO11]

Looking forward to the game with Chelsea, they look brilliant going forward and have some very exciting players. Although they do look defensivley weak based on watching the Super cup game and a few other games I've seen in the premiership, hopefully our mediocre forwards can take advantage of that.

Some similarities between the two squads: Chelsea's problems with torres and lack of other forwards is very similar to our problem with a lack of star strikers.

I don't think our defence is the weak link it's more the in balance in midfield with Mikel and Lampard. It will be a good match i have no doubt about that, atmosphere should be sensational too as it's the first game of our defence.

 

[juventus1980]

I think Juve will win the midfield battle, but their forwards will fail to take advantage of it.

Giovonco is a very promising number 10 and may be able to exploit John Terry's lack of speed, but I think your right. Goals will come from the midfield as per usual.

I don't think our defence is the weak link it's more the in balance in midfield with Mikel and Lampard. It will be a good match i have no doubt about that, atmosphere should be sensational too as it's the first game of our defence.

It didn't look great against At. Madrid, which is the only very decent team I've seen Chelsea play so far this season. Very nice to be playing the European champions after finishing 7th a few seasons ago.

 

[zzeezzy]

I am looking forward to the Chelsea match to watch Arturo Vidal and Pirlo, if they both play :wub:

 

[Subtle]

The problem with this match is how the **** do we control it? In theory their 3 at the back vs our lone striker should work out well but I can see Torres being entirely stifled and removed from the game. Mike says, quite rightly, that it looks likely that we will lose the midfield battle but Juve's weaker strikeforce will fail to capitalise on this. For me, that's not good enough. I expect the midfield to win the game for us tonight, given Torres' failing and the fact that he will likely be doubled up on throughout the evening. If we're going to win, it will be because of the band of 3 behind him, assuming we play a 4-2-3-1.


The two wingers will need to be quick and clever, able to double up on Juve's wingbacks with support from our own fullbacks. In theory we can pin them back, thereby giving our fullbacks the relative luxury of space and time, or sneak our wingers in the gaps they leave behind. Ideally I'd like to see Hazard playing out wide tonight, with Moses or Bertrand.

Then we come to the central attacking midfielder. Now this is tricky: do you play more of a 4-3-3 with Lampard at the tip, in an effort to pressure Pirlo or do you stick to the 4-2-3-1 and give your no.10 space to play with? You're basically left with a choice between limiting their creativity or increasing your own. It's worth noting here that the usual interplay between Mata and Hazard is perhaps unwise in this situation. You need width to stretch Juve and bring your own advantages to bear; drifting inside simply hands the prerogative back to the narrow side. Additionally, there's no dedicated holding midfielder to exploit with clever movement so essentially all they'd be doing is attempting to throw the wingback off and do a pretty little dance in front of the Juve back line.

The pivot has to be Ramires and Mikel imo. A Lampard-Mikel combo vs the energy and verve of Vidal and Marchisio? Suicide, Ramires will be important in tracking their runs, battling for the ball in midefield and shuttling it out to the flanks, so he will need all of his impressive stamina tonight.

tl;dr If we allow ourselves to be dominated in midfield, we have very little chance of winning the game. We can either try and neutralise Pirlo or exploit their lack of a dedicated DM with our own creativity.

 

[zzeezzy]

The problem with this match is how the **** do we control it? In theory their 3 at the back vs our lone striker should work out well but I can see Torres being entirely stifled and removed from the game. Mike says, quite rightly, that it looks likely that we will lose the midfield battle but Juve's weaker strikeforce will fail to capitalise on this. For me, that's not good enough. I expect the midfield to win the game for us tonight, given Torres' failing and the fact that he will likely be doubled up on throughout the evening. If we're going to win, it will be because of the band of 3 behind him, assuming we play a 4-2-3-1.


The two wingers will need to be quick and clever, able to double up on Juve's wingbacks with support from our own fullbacks. In theory we can pin them back, thereby giving our fullbacks the relative luxury of space and time, or sneak our wingers in the gaps they leave behind. Ideally I'd like to see Hazard playing out wide tonight, with Moses or Bertrand.

Then we come to the central attacking midfielder. Now this is tricky: do you play more of a 4-3-3 with Lampard at the tip, in an effort to pressure Pirlo or do you stick to the 4-2-3-1 and give your no.10 space to play with? You're basically left with a choice between limiting their creativity or increasing your own. It's worth noting here that the usual interplay between Mata and Hazard is perhaps unwise in this situation. You need width to stretch Juve and bring your own advantages to bear; drifting inside simply hands the prerogative back to the narrow side. Additionally, there's no dedicated holding midfielder to exploit with clever movement so essentially all they'd be doing is attempting to throw the wingback off and do a pretty little dance in front of the Juve back line.

The pivot has to be Ramires and Mikel imo. A Lampard-Mikel combo vs the energy and verve of Vidal and Marchisio? Suicide, Ramires will be important in tracking their runs, battling for the ball in midefield and shuttling it out to the flanks, so he will need all of his impressive stamina tonight.

tl;dr If we allow ourselves to be dominated in midfield, we have very little chance of winning the game. We can either try and neutralise Pirlo or exploit their lack of a dedicated DM with our own creativity.

I think Vidal is their defensive midfielder, although he is such a rounded player he can do much more than just that. I agree you need to try and stop their midfield but I am not sure how it will work unless you use a 4-3-3.

Isn't the match tomorrow, I thought it was Real Madrid vs Man City and Montpellier vs Arsenal tonight?

 

[Subtle]

From what I've seen of them, Pirlo is the deepest member of the midfield and Vidal and Marchisio provide the energy and directness infront of him. Vidal is the more withdrawn of the two but I don't think I would call him a dedicated defensive midfielder.

(also, yeah it is tomorrow. idk why I said tonight so much... :-/)

 

[juventus1980]

I think Vidal is their defensive midfielder, although he is such a rounded player he can do much more than just that. I agree you need to try and stop their midfield but I am not sure how it will work unless you use a 4-3-3.

Isn't the match tomorrow, I thought it was Real Madrid vs Man City and Montpellier vs Arsenal tonight?

Pirlo plays as the holding Regista of the three controlling the play, Vidal and Marchisio play in front of him. Vidal gets forward a lot.

Not sure if Juve will stick to a 3-5-2 or not.

And it is, but I am excited about tomorrows game.

 

[CJACKO11]

Giovonco is a very promising number 10 and may be able to exploit John Terry's lack of speed, but I think your right. Goals will come from the midfield as per usual.



It didn't look great against At. Madrid, which is the only very decent team I've seen Chelsea play so far this season. Very nice to be playing the European champions after finishing 7th a few seasons ago.

We played City and Newcastle in recent times has been a very tough fixture for us too. Luiz and Ivanovic was poor against Madrid i agree but the whole way Chelsea went about the Super cup was wrong. We treated it like it was a pain and not something we had to win which was wrong.