Capoue is also a good shout, have no idea on cost. Havent watched him though, unlike the others, so this is purely based on stats.
The Manchester United Thread
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Capoue is also a good shout, have no idea on cost. Havent watched him though, unlike the others, so this is purely based on stats.
Roy Keane was hardly an angel, but he was one of the finest midfielders in history. Fellaini, likewise, has a mean streak, but that's not something to be sniffed at when your current midfield is filled with cultured passers and energetic runners but no bite.
Yet Fellaini had a wonderful one and you call him overrated? Hmm...
Stats! Wonderful. Now, let's have a look at them.
The two Benders are pretty clearly better at defending than the rest, but judging by the fact that their 'was dribbled' count is also higher, we can deduce that their one job is pretty much to defend. Not so Fellaini, who has been deployed behind the striker a couple of times in addition to playing a more mobile, box-to-box role alongside Darron Gibson, not only because of his added threat in attack but also because David Moyes' 4-4-1-1 formation demands it. Compare that with the Benders, who both have the holding role as one of the two deep midfielders in a 4-2-3-1. M'Vila, likewise, plays a deep holding role with little vertical movement. Asamoah, meanwhile, takes Fellaini's role even further: with Asamoah being deployed in a 3-5-1-1 formation for much for the season, his job is extremely energetic, like Mauricio Isla on the other side of the diamond. Giampiero Pinzi is the holder for that formation, meaning that coupled with hard-working wing-backs, Asamoah's job is to support the attackers slightly more than to defend.
If we look at the attacking stats, this backs up my theories even more. Fellaini and Asamoah have relatively standard stats for their roles, with 3 goals apiece and over a shot a game on average. The Benders and M'Vila, however, don't - disregarding the anomaly of Lars' 4 goals as an outlier, which can be explained by Dortmund's dominance in the league and flexible approach to attacking, as evidenced by his high amount of successful dribbles - and their lack of shots evidences that. Interestingly, M'Vila has a relatively high key pass rate, though that can be put down to the lack of quality in Rennes' midfielder forcing him to try ambitious passes, as well as him also being arguably the best long passer of the five.
The final stats back up that previous assertion: M'Vila's easily the most comfortable passer of all of them, being the most technically accomplished. The rest of the stats don't tell us much else, so I'm going to throw in some of mine. In aerials won - important for United, who lack someone big and strong in midfield that can win the ball in the air, the importance of which is explained here - Fellaini is understandably, given his height, the best. He won 87 out of 117 aerials in the league, an impressive feat, particularly when you compare it to the other four; Asamoah (46/117), L. Bender (35/65), S. Bender (27/54) and M'Vila (42/71).
With all this in mind, we can sit back and consider who would be the best fit for United. What United need is a mobile destroyer, with enough finesse and technique to pass reliably, and yet enough height, aggression and tackling to win the ball often. Think of it as a spectrum. At one end, we have the two Benders and M'Vila. The Benders are very similar - unsurprisingly, given they are twins - and most of the variations between their stats are down to their respective teams and their styles and success. Both of them fulfil the first two parts of what United are looking for, being mobile, aggressive and good at both passing and tackling, but they just don't have the requisite strength in the air. Now this wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't both tied down on long-term contracts at big clubs, in Sven's case particularly so. You're looking at big money for them. M'Vila is similar, a better passer and at least an equally good tackler, but again not particularly good in the air, and not especially mobile. Not to mention, he's being targetted by other clubs too.
That leaves us with Asamoah and Fellaini. Now, Asamoah is exceptionally mobile, and offers another dimension to just a holding midfield role, but that strength is also his weakness. Positionally he is poor, and his decision-making on whether to stay back or go forward has never been his strongest point. Most of all though, he has never really played as a holding midfielder for any extended length of time: he's always had Pinzi and Isla to clean up after him, not to mention the fact that he's the smallest of any of the candidates, and thus has the hardest time in the air.
So that leaves us with Fellaini. A remarkably good all-rounder, Fellaini can play as a holder, a box to box midfielder, behind the striker or even AS a striker. He's mobile, a good passer, can score goals, offers much at set-pieces due to his huge height, can tackle well, and has sorted out his positional issues to become a reliable interceptor. On top of that, he'll be cheaper than the other candidates, is young, comes already acclimatised for English football, and honestly doesn't seem to have any weaknesses apart from his occasionally questionable discipline.
EDIT: **** you guys, I spent all this time writing this wall o'text and you've already said it whilst I was typing.
If I'm not wrong Carrick averages more tackles per game than M'Vila and all. I would love to see Dembele at United. Superb player. Our problem was not having someone who can create havoc from the center and Dembele is the player. Can dribble, pass and has eye for key pass. Not to forget dude is amazing at retaining possession in tight situation. I like Fellaini but if the price is 25 Million and Dembele is around 10-15 Million then its a no contest. Yeah they both are different players but Dembele proved he is capable of playing any role. Surprisingly he averages 3.1 tackles per game which is just awesome.
I wouldn't complain with Fellaini or Dembele but given choice Dembele any day as imo Fellaini is bit clumsy with ball at his feet.
If we have to sign any other Belgian then it should be Defour.
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Hi sunil have you seen the new dhl advert with the united players in it, i have just seen it this morning and there is player looks portugese on the beach with kids he is on just before henandez and after giggs?
Well Carrick isnt a mobile destroyer, which is why you would look to partner him with one. again Dembele, not a mobile destroyer. One of our problems was getting pummelled through the middle. He is also not defensively positionally adept through the middle, in fact has the same weaknesses as Asamoah. Rather have someone who was defensively positionally adept there first.
Again Defour same problem, similar to Carrick. We should be looking to enhance what we dont have in the side already
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Sorry tu **** in your conversation mate! Do you know who the new united player is in the dhl advert on tv?
I dont think he is ManUtd player, just some Portuguese lad wearing United jersey?
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Yeah was just thinking did we not sign some lad perea or something like that?
Well Barca dont have a destroyer but they can win the ball back better than anyone. We shouldn't rely on individual player or roles, we should defend as a team and try to sign players who are better on the ball.
Carrick and Scholes combination was the best we had from 2006-09. Both were not destroyers but complimented superbly. Then we had Carrick Giggs combination which worked very well in 2010-11 second half, neither are destroyers.
If we partner Carrick with just destroyer, I'm sure we wont be any threat from the middle. Need someone good on the ball to put pressure on opposition and Carrick is very good defensively.
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The player on the dhl advert is united new portugese youth signing andreas pereira from psv
We are not Barcelona, our problem is specifically that we get overpowered through the middle. We also have no players like that. The Carrick and Scholes combination worked because we had Hargreaves and Fletcher during that. And to say we wont be any thread through the middle is nonsense, or have you forgotten Kagawa already? There is a reason why I pointed out Fellaini, mobile destroyer with more to his game. Again this has been pointed out repeated throughout the thread, moble destroyer with more to his game.
Carrick Scholes didn't play with Hargreaves or Fletcher. They played in midfield 2 in 4-4-2, with Giggs Ronaldo on wings and Saha and Rooney as strikers.
Dembele is not defensively liability either, he wins as many tackles as the players you posted, with Carrick he will work well and we will retain possession much better. And like I said instead of depending on individuals for winning the ball, we should work as a team to win it.
I wouldn't say no to Fellaini who adds different dimension to our game and would be great threat aerially from set pieces or from open play as we have superb wingers, but given the choice I would go with Dembele as I love him as CM. I love him as he is very good on the ball.
Edit: No I didn't forget Kagawa, it's just that we will be much better with players good on the ball.
You are wrong.
His average key passes per game is indeed decent (1.4, not amazing, but decent) but 'amazing at retaining possession'? Not quite. 38 turnovers and 70 dispossessions in the league speak volumes.
How the **** has Dembele proven he can play 'any role'? He's played as a trequartista and then slightly deeper in midfield. That's about it. Occasionally he's played as a striker or on the left wing. There's nothing to suggest that he can hold a midfield together. For the love of god don't just look at his tackling stats. 3.1 tackles per game is great, but he's got less than one interception per game, which lends credence to the argument that he isn't a holding midfielder, merely energetic. Stephen Ireland averages 2.4 tackles per game, that doesn't make him a defensive midfielder. Dembele wouldn't be a good defensive midfielder for a number of reasons, but the biggest by far is that he doesn't have the brain of a holder. People like M'Vila, like Fellaini, like the Benders, they have the positional discipline required to mark a zone or man and not go gallivanting up the pitch on some fool's errand unless they're sure it's safe.
Your problem is not having someone who can anchor the midfield and win the ball back. If you want driving runs from midfield, Tom Cleverley's already proven he can do it, why stunt his growth?
Perhaps he looks like that, but their actual errors in possession stats show that Fellaini loses the ball far less.
...what?
So you've got Scholes, Carrick and to a lesser extent Cleverley. What in the **** would be the point of shelling out for ANOTHER deep-lying passer?
So Sergio Busquets isn't a destroyer anymore?
Right, except certain crucial games have shown that it just doesn't work consistently at the highest level. Mike. and I have constantly pointed out this over the past 50 pages. Take the City game, for instance, where you were totally overrun by the power and strength of the City midfield. Or most of your European games, where you were dumped out of two competitions by sides that wouldn't give your central midfielders time on the ball.
Carrick is great at covering space and positionally, but you cannot rely on him to do the entire side's defensive work. You have no threat from the middle as it is. At least Fellaini would offer something defensively as well as offensively.
2006-2009 was the assymmetric 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 (whatever shape you want to call it) formation was used more than any other, especially in Europe. Winning tackles is not the same as defensive positioning. His defensive position isn't that good. And you then go on to say winning it as a team, which requires defensive positioning. Our losses have come through being physically overpowered through the middle. Great, Dembele is good on the ball, doesnt solve our problem. You don't buy a player because you love him. The aim is to enhance the squad, and plug our weaknesses. Kagawa fixes that lack of goals and assists from AMC when there is no Rooney, Fellaini/Bender/etc fix that aggressive mobile destroyer, that prevents us from being overrun.
Yeah, 0.1 less. If you count interceptions then Carrick average is better than M'Vila.
Messi was dispossessed more than many players, doesn't mean he is not good with ball under pressure. That mean he tries risky passes and risky moves which Fellaini doesn't. He plays it safe whereas Dembele is not.
Apart from defensive midfielder, he has played every role. So when I said 'any role' did you think I means even CB, LB,RM, ST, water carrier, ball boy, manager, assistant manager?
There is nothing to suggest Fellaini will fold the midfield together, looking at how many games Everton were dominated in games.
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For the love of God, i never said he was holding midfielder. Fellaini averages 0.7 interceptions more per game. Big deal. If you count tackling and interceptions Fellaini averages 4.4 whereas Dembele 4 and I know who is better on the ball and less clumsy. Fellaini was dribbles 0.8 times and Dembele was 0.4. Which also shows Dembele is not any lesser in winning ball back.
Where exactly did anyone say Dembele was DM? Making thing up now?
Good, never said Dembele was DM and we don't need one. We need someone who is good on ball under pressure which we lacked. Which was evident when we gave ball easily against City and in Europe.
Winning the ball back was not the only problem. Retaining was much bigger problem for us when under pressure.
Or he plays safe passes only?
Exactly, Scholes is very young you see to play whole season and Clverley has shown lot of promise but still he has not proven and having more depth wont hurt either. Much better than watching Park, Rafael playing as CM and losing the game or playing Giggs as CM.
Defour is not just a deep lying playmaker or like Carrick. He is more mobile and better passer in the final third.
Busquets is far far from destroyer.
And you missed it when I said 2006-09 when Scholes was capable of playing whole 90 mins or had legs.
Exactly what I said, when we dont have much time on ball I would love someone like Dembele in the team.
Our problem was not just defensive, it was doing something useful with the ball from the middle. Which Dembele will.
No No No No. This is actual nonsense sorry. Toure literally ran us over 3 times in 4 games. Cayabe and Tiote smashed through the middle of the park. Bilbao when they were not passiong through us, were kicking us of the park.
Our biggest problem is a lack of physicality and defensive aggression especially in the key games, which we did not do too well in Fellaini has this in spades. Dembele does not. The fact you say we dont need a DM in Europe, when positionally adept destroyers (usually with more to their game, such as Keane, Fletcher, Hargreaves) have always been the backbone to our euro success tells me you cant grasp what we are missing. You've just spouted on a lot of half points. Goals were not our problem, but we have solved that issue through the middle with Kagawa.
The key games will be Euro ties, especially away, and ties against City, Chelsea, and Arsenal. Dembele doesnt protect our midfield, Fellaini does.
Still we played with 2 CMs without Fletcher/Hargo like you said. 2 players who complimented superbly. Dembele positioning might be suspect that doesn't mean he can't improve on that. Rest all his game is good so I dont see why he can't make a good fit at United.
We played the big games with 3, as we will this season, because that is what is needed. Because playing with two got us overrun, that is why that formation was created in the first place, with Europe in mind. Why the **** would you buy a defensively suspect player and hope to improve him, when you can buy a player who actually fits that defensive destroyer position and has more to their game. Utterly pointless.
Nonsense because i dont agree with you? great.
No Toure didn't smashed 4 games, community shield we were all over them and they scored against run of play. How well did we use the ball against City and Newcastle away? We gave it everytime we got it back which only increased pressure on us.
Again in Europe how well did we use the ball against Bilbao when they were all over us? We couldn't hold on to it even to string few passes (One of the reason why I wanted Banega so badly).
Just because they overrun us, you think we need a destroyer, not mine but looks like how great your understanding of the game. Bilbao smashed not just because we didn't get the ball but also each time we got it they won it back in no time as we were awful on the ball.
Even in Europe we can use Carrick and Anderson (who was good in winning the ball) along with Dembele/Kagawa.
Yeah who were the destroyers when we made it to Semi finals in 2006-07? Carrick and Scholes were CMs.
In 2007-08 Carrick and Scholes were CMs and Hargreaves played most of his games as RW.
Always been the backbone to our euro success? Our best form was with Carrick and Scholes.
Playing creative CM who is good on the ball is not for goals. Simpleton view. We retain possession better is the main point.