The Manchester United Thread

Vanjagl said:
I don't know who is 80m flop you're talking about? I can quess but no one mention any flops. And the fact you find him a flop is amusing to say the least.

United are searching for a partner for its 80m CB, just like Liverpool are. Didnt they splash something like 30m on a CB recently? How many different CBs did Klopp have/still has? He was just more sensible with free transfers (Matip) and loans (Kabak?) until he signed Kounate.

Selling players is irrelevant here, spending 500m in 5-6 seasons is mental for any manager.

You keep injecting "but Solskjaer had this and that", irrelevant to Klopp's spending. He aint builder from nothing. Like any other top manager he'll spend whatever is needed.

I'm trying to find reliable source (dunno how Liverpool echo is) but according to them last year Lpools wage bill was 2nd only to Cities. And with the amount of success Lpool had, theyre still underpaying their biggest stars.
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Why do you even bother on L'pool when you continually miss things to that end by a Country mile?

L'pool aren't searching for a partner for van Dijk yer divvy yer. They are just increasing their top 4 options at the position. In large part down to the unprecedented injury crisis they suffered last year. They already have three top draw CH's aside from Konaté. Albeit with one, Matip, made of biscuits but still. Konaté is no guaranteed starter when van Dijk and Gomez are fully fit. It’s all about options and having the same top/level calibre to ease the load with no drop off. The point being made was they HAD to get van Dijk right when they did the unprecedented thing for us to spend that amount of money. Which they have in getting the clear best CH in World football who's levels above anyone else. If they had bought Maguire, who is a massive flop however you want to deny it (Ithink it’s THAT long since you lads have watched consistently good defending that you cling to ANY positive anyone does. If you need to buy someone else to cover an £80 million players glaring faults, he’s a FLOP!!!!! When you spend that, you should be buying the finished article at the very top of his position) it would have set them back YEARS financially. They wouldn't have been able to replace him or get someone to hold his hand. And the success wouldn't have followed which has just increased the business and money they have to replenish back into the club .There's absolutely ZERO comparison owever you madly want to push it. EVERYTHING we spend we earn. It's within our means

L’pool don't have Utd's luxury of doing whatever the F they want to do financially with ZERO repercussions in comparison.

L'ppol's wage bill was the second biggest last year down to all the success they had and the bonuses they had to pay our for winning the CL and the Pl in the same financial year. Our contracts always have been lower based but highly incentified. Going right back to the 70's/ 80's. It's the third-highest this year and in the next set of accounts will drop right back again after last year. So no, they can't just go out and double Varanes wages. Or drop the money you have on Sancho who'd be sat backing up Salah. There's absolutely NO comparison in how Solksjaer or any other manager can rebuild with at Utd as to the limitations in comparison Klopp has had to work with. And let's not even start with what he inherited to begin with as opposed to what Klopp inherited.

Hey, if it makes you feel sound on a manager that's taking Utd nowhere fast by laughably trying to compare him to the situation Klopp’s happily been in, then fill yer boots.

It’s just hysterical to read.
 
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dilakh2 said:
Bruh we are literally operating as a sell to buy club thats how much we have to live within our means (having to sell off fringe players first before buying). Konate was someone earmarked because low and behold we had the mother of all injury crises and one CB is made out of crisps and two are returning from career defining injuries. I'm sorry we didn't spend 75million on Sancho (who Klopp admired and probably wanted) we will have to make due with Jota who cost us 5mill upfront and even then we binned off hoever (however you spell his name) who played 2 cups games for 10 million onto wolves. My point was that certain clubs cant afford to get it wrong. You are the richest club in the world. This whole transition **** is laughable as you can outspend the whole league if you wanted to and still get it wrong and it wouldn't be a problem. Chelsea have been in crisis for a decade it seems, that doesn't stop them from winning the biggest trophies in club football.
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Chelsea's structure is built for their scattergun approach. You think Chelsea managers have says in transfers? For example, out of the 6 players that were brought in last summer, the only player Lampard wanted was Chiwell. A Chelsea manager is just a dispensable cog and not the focal point.

On the other hand, the reason transition has been prolonged at united is because Fergie ran everything from top to bottom. Losing him left this massive void we've struggled with for years from managerial decisions to player acquisitions
 
Scouseinthehouse said:
Why do you even bother on L'pool when you continually miss things to that end by a Country mile?

L'pool aren't searching for a partner for van Dijk yer divvy yer. They are just increasing their top 4 options at the position. In large part down to the unprecedented injury crisis they suffered last year. They already have three top draw CH's aside from Konaté. Albeit with one, Matip, made of biscuits but still. Konaté is no guaranteed starter when van Dijk and Gomez are fully fit. It’s all about options and having the same top level calibre to ease the load with no drop off. The point being made was they HAD to get van Dijk right when they did the unprecedented thing for us to spend that amount of money. Which they have in getting the clear best CH in World football who's levels above anyone else. If they had bought Maguire, who is a massive flop however you want to deny it (I think it’s THAT long since you lads have watched consistently good defending that you cling to ANY positive anyone does), it would have set them back YEARS financially. They wouldn't have been able to replace him or get someone to hold his hand. And the success wouldn't have followed which has just increased the business and money they have to replenish back into the club .There's absolutely ZERO comparison owever you madly want to push it. EVERYTHING we spend we earn. It's within our means

L’pool don't have Utd's luxury of doing whatever the F they want to do financially with ZERO repercussions in comparison.

L'ppol's wage bill was the second biggest last year down to all the success they had and the bonuses they had to pay our for winning the CL and the Pl in the same financial year. Our contracts always have been lower based but highly incentified. Going right back to the 70's/ 80's. It's the third-highest this year and in the next set of accounts will drop right back again after last year. So no, they can't just go out and double Varanes wages. Or drop the money you have on Sancho who'd be sat backing up Salah. There's absolutely NO comparison in how Solksjaer or any other manager can rebuild with at Utd as to the limitations on comparison Klopp has had to work with. And let's not even start with what he inherited to begin with as opposed to what Klopp inherited.

Hey, if it makes you feel sound on a manager that's taking Utd nowhere fast by laughably trying to compare him to the situation Klopp’s happily been in, then fill yer boots.

It’s just hysterical to read.
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Yet they are splashing 30m + on a CB. Yeah, Liverpool are searching CBs to accommodate van Dijk.
 
Vanjagl said:
Yet they are splashing 30m + on a CB. Yeah, Liverpool are searching CBs to accommodate van Dijk.
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Not exactly the word I'd use but I'd say he's a contingency plan.

You know how we fell apart defensively as soon as Maguire got injured during the tail of last season? Thing is we don't have any other truly relatable defender to anchor that defense with. Liverpool are trying to avoid that situation.
 
Legend Incredible said:
Not exactly the word I'd use but I'd say he's a contingency plan.

You know how we fell apart defensively as soon as Maguire got injured during the tail of last season? Thing is we don't have any other truly relatable defender to anchor that defense with. Liverpool are trying to avoid that situation.
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*Reliable in terms of health.

Thats the exact thing. It's all about having 4 top-level options with no drop-off. Along with Gomez and Konaté being the long term future with both big Virg and Matip hitting 30.

The quality to partner van Dijk (who, BTW, I think will see a decrease in his minutes going forward now there's even more top-quality depth) from any of them isn't in question.

To try equate it to Utd's situation with Maguire is ...... something.
 
Can I just reiterate again, and this applies to ANY club and ANY player-

When you pay the VERY top end money of £80 million or more, if you then have to look to buy someone to cover his glaring deficiencies, then by its very definition said mega-money signing a massive FLOP! No if's. No buts. He just is.

You pay that money for the best in position in the World to take you over the top. Not to have to then buy someone to hold his F hand!

If L'pool had got their analytics all wrong on van Dijk and had ended up the same, he'd be a massive F flop too!
 
Sigh. Maguire was not worth 80 Mn. Everyone knows and acknowledges that. Maguire was probably 40-50 Mn. Leicester were in a strong position and ripped teams apart with that valuation (both City and United, at one point). The fact that we paid more (or rather, any team that wanted him would have paid the premium) doesn't automatically make him a uber WC 80 Mn. defender nor a particular flop, per se.

I honestly wouldn't consider Maguire as a flop. Haven't been too big of a fan until last year, mind. But he's not a flop. In fact, that purchase was honestly similar to Pogba's on a lot of levels - he would elevate the quality that currently exists, but he is not a solo miracle worker. And let's be honest, Maguire was brought in because it was assumed Lindelof would be complimentary to him in terms of recovery speed, sweepng etc. However, Lindelof tends to goof up and can't properly time headers, et all. Any CB is being brought to replace Lindelof in the team, and be a complimentary act to Maguire, which is okay. You want to term Lindelof as a flop, I'm good with that (although, I do like him).

CBs like van Dijk are rather rare in the fact that they can command and change an entire defence themselves. Dias was rumoured to be on the same level in improving a defence - he is really good but nowhere near that level. The only other player who comes to mind (at a similar level) would be Sergio Ramos (and even his influence would be waning, due to his age - reducing his speed). Maybe de Ligt can get to that in the future. (what is with Dutch defenders beasting this? Stam was of a similar type).

Maguire has definitely improved our defence, no doubt. He has really good instincts, can play out from deep and is a beast in the air. His recovery speed is a problem, sure. But just a look at those last few games without Maguire will give an indication why he would never be considered a flop. He was transformative in our defence (at a lesser level of VVD at Liverpool, no doubt). But just look at that team without him (and without a Mourinho tactic of parking the bus) to identify how weak that defence actually is.
 
Sherkey said:
Sigh. Maguire was not worth 80 Mn …..
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I disagree with a lot of your post mate, but thats by-the-by. It’s all subjective opinion and it’d be mad if we all agreed on everything. 🍻 (Or you’re chatting tiring ‘b/s’ seemingly if I don’t agree with you dependent on your POV. 🤦‍♂️But I digress ….)

What you can’t ignore, however, is the inescapable fact, whether anyone think it’s harsh or not, is Maguire IS an £80 million footballer. And when you pay the mega money, you are paying for elite, difference making, best in position to take you over the top. Even in todays ‘money no object’ game the mega-money transfers are rare for that very reason. You cite van Dijk for a very good reason. He, more than any other defender, embodies that. He’s the Messi/ Ronaldo of CH’s in so far as he’s on one level all on his own. Then there’s a sizeable drop off to the next level/ group of players. Who are some top players in their own right. But not at his exceptional level. If he wasn’t, there’s absolutely NO way L’pool would have risked that crazy money on a complete difference making player. They indentified what they needed and wouldn’t compromise. It would have ruined them for one. But thats exactly why you pay that amount of money. For best in class.

So when a player, ANY player, is nothing like that, but commands a mega-money fee (regardless of how stupid or not we view the buying club with their money), the point still stands.

Love it or hate it, thats the harsh reality of the mega stakes at play.
 
Scouseinthehouse said:
I disagree with a lot of your post mate, but thats by-the-by. It’s all subjective opinion and it’d be mad if we all agreed on everything. 🍻 (Or you’re chatting tiring ‘b/s’ seemingly if I don’t agree with you dependent on your POV. 🤦‍♂️But I digress ….)

What you can’t ignore, however, is the inescapable fact, whether anyone think it’s harsh or not, is Maguire IS an £80 million footballer. And when you pay the mega money, you are paying for elite, difference making, best in position to take you over the top. Even in todays ‘money no object’ game the mega-money transfers are rare for that very reason. You cite van Dijk for a very good reason. He, more than any other defender, embodies that. He’s the Messi/ Ronaldo of CH’s in so far as he’s on one level all on his own. Then there’s a sizeable drop off to the next level/ group of players. Who are some top players in their own right. But not at his exceptional level. If he wasn’t, there’s absolutely NO way L’pool would have risked that crazy money on a complete difference making player. They indentified what they needed and wouldn’t compromise. It would have ruined them for one. But thats exactly why you pay that amount of money. For best in class.

So when a player, ANY player, is nothing like that, but commands a mega-money fee (regardless of how stupid or not we view the buying club with their money), the point still stands.

Love it or hate it, thats the harsh reality of the mega stakes at play.
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If you're quoting mega stakes, Scouse, lets look at the things currently happening. Other than van Dijk, Ramos, Varane (possibly) and maybe Marquinhos, I'd be hard-pressed to find a defender clearly heads and tails above Maguire. Better than him in some aspects? Sure. Do you have players who suit a system? Sure. But as a defender, on a completely different level to Maguire? I doubt it.

I wouldn't take a Gomez (potential, definitely. plenty of mistakes, too), Matip (glass cannon) or Konate over him. Nor would I consider Stones (maybe Dias, but I'll reserve that after his second season). Definitely none of Chelsea's bunch. Arsenal and Tottenham don't even come into the equation.

Then, you go international. Nobody at Barca. Or Real (I honestly don't rate Alaba as much, his pace covers for a lot of positional faults). OR Atleti, as of now (although Gimenez is good). Then, Germany, and there's barely anyone. Hummels is worse than Maguire at his faults. Boateng is good, but old. Italy has Chiellini and Bonucci, but their age and declining pace over an entire seasons means I wouldn't hedge my bets too much there too. de Ligt, however, is good.

Point is, you act like 80 Mn. gets you a faultless player every single time - the truth is farthest from that. You lucked out with van Dijk, but he is the exception, not the rule. Almost all of the top CBs in the world all have their faults along with their good points. They have systems that suit those players. But as an overall defender who plays out the back, Maguire is pretty good for all his faults.

He consistently is at a 6.5-7 most days, which is pretty good, considering he has Lindelof next to him and keeper rotation behind him (with two drastically differing styles). If you're naming top 10 CBs currently overall in the world, basis their strengths and weakness, Maguire does have a strong chance of being named there. There are youngsters with more potential, but we are talking current ability.

You however, are of the opinion that he is walking trash. IS he worth 80 Mn.? Probably not. Is he utter ****? **** no. He is a good defender (and I'm not even a Maguire fan, FFS). In that sense, we are diametrically opposite. He definitely has made a drastic difference to our defence. Also, he would walk into 4 other defences of the supposed top 6 (minus Liverpool, since the demands are different).

Plus, transfer valuation does not equate to player valuation. For all the mad sums being touted about for Kane, there is no way he is worthy of 160 Mn. (that's madness). But that's what Kane is valued at by Tottenham, and that's what City will have to potentially pay to get him. He doesn't automatically become a MEssi/Ronaldo at those sums, but he might make a difference to that frontline, and that's what they might have to pay.
 
You're still missing the point by a Country mile mate.

If van Dijk was a Maguire, there's absolutely NO way we'd have entertained even a £40/50 million purchase as you bracketed him. (Again, we are MILE's apart in how we view him and agreeing that there's not a slew of defenders far better/ he'd get nowhere near another top sides backline. He's a glorified Nat Phillips IMHO and those type of very limited defenders are ten a penny. But that's subjective opinion and all good.). As he's not the difference-making, top bracket player we needed. Which is what you pay the mega-money money for.

We'll have to agree to disagree on his ability but you just can't escape the fee whether you think it's harsh on a player or not. And not least when, by common consensus in this here thread alone, Utd now need to sign someone to 'cover his weakness'. It's utter mad fandom to argue that an £80 million investment needs someone to make up for what he lacks and claim he isn't a flop. It just is.

Those are the stakes mate and the harsh reality when you play them.
 
Even van Dijk isn't flawless. He can be reckless in possession with occasional lapses in concentration.
You want your CB pair to complement eachother. Lindelof was "the guy", but he unfortunately isn't. He's mediocre at everything at best. Bailly is uber athletic but that guy is a walking mistake. United doesn't need another CB to hold Maguires hand, they need a competent defender who doesn't need Maguire to hold their hand.

Scouse will never admit it, and not just him, and thats fine, but Maguire is slowly but surely showing that he is world class.
Can't blood y ( why is ****** a bad word? lol ) wait for season to start.
 
Nobody who wanted to be taken seriously would ever claim Maguire is showing he’s ‘World class’ (If he is, we badly need to raise the asking price for Nat. We’re massively under-selling him if thats the case.).

That part certainly is true.

Pogba has World class ability. Even if he doesn’t show it anywhere near consistently enough to be classed as that.

Sancho is well on the way to becoming World class.

Maguire on the other hand is the outlier of the mega-money men in the squad. (Which flips back to dialkhs point that the reaiuces between the two clubs are WORLDS apart when Alisson and van Dijk are the outliers and not the norm over the years. But I digress …..).

All the rest of the league can say is LONG may Maguire and A N Other continue at the heart of Utd’s defence as he makes you smile more than anyone when you see him not only on the team sheet, but captaining one of the biggest clubs in World football. A BIG snile.

I’ll leave this at that as it’s rolling around in circles.
 
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Who's who? :D
 
Vanjagl said:
The fact that that Legend Incredimaria guy (who's a massive bandwagoner btw) is liking his posts says enough.
Why do I bother? There's a reason why I dont read The S*n or similar ****. Same goes for this forum, would rather not to read his bs time and time again.
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I mean, your point of Liverpool needing to buy center backs to "accommodate" VVD is a bit absurd. Why would Liverpool get a defender to accommodate the most complete defender in the league? (At least prior to his injury).
 
Each to there own football is all about opinion etc. But Maguire is definitely a top CB not WC currently. If he continues this form from the new year till now through next season then we can talk about him young the WC level.
 
Legend Incredible said:
I mean, your point of Liverpool needing to buy center backs to "accommodate" VVD is a bit absurd. Why would Liverpool get a defender to accommodate the most complete defender in the league? (At least prior to his injury).
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That’s the most interesting thing for me. How’s he gonna come back from it.
 
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