Pretty much spot on tbh. I genuinly feel sorry for people from East European, or any sort of country, that are desperate for work, come here to get work, and become victims of the bile that comes from some peoples mouths. Just makes me sick when they blame people from other countries, for their own shortcomings-Ie inabiliy to get a job. Yeah, you may get turned down for it, but there's still other jobs out there for gods sake. Swallow your pride for gods sake and just get what you can until something better comes along. I've done it, as I'm sure millions of others have. I'd kill for a job right now-I've applied for cleaning jobs, Mcdonalds, and right now I'm applying for voluntary work, and yes so far I've been unsuccessful-but I sure as **** don't blame foreign nationals for nicking jobs. Nothing more than a feeble excuse. Yeah I've been stuck in a cushy office/call centre environment majority of my working life, but it doesn't stop me trying to provide for my family even though it's a **** wage. Majority of people have no-one to blame but themselves half the time.
UK Riots
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Pretty much spot on tbh. I genuinly feel sorry for people from East European, or any sort of country, that are desperate for work, come here to get work, and become victims of the bile that comes from some peoples mouths. Just makes me sick when they blame people from other countries, for their own shortcomings-Ie inabiliy to get a job. Yeah, you may get turned down for it, but there's still other jobs out there for gods sake. Swallow your pride for gods sake and just get what you can until something better comes along. I've done it, as I'm sure millions of others have. I'd kill for a job right now-I've applied for cleaning jobs, Mcdonalds, and right now I'm applying for voluntary work, and yes so far I've been unsuccessful-but I sure as **** don't blame foreign nationals for nicking jobs. Nothing more than a feeble excuse. Yeah I've been stuck in a cushy office/call centre environment majority of my working life, but it doesn't stop me trying to provide for my family even though it's a **** wage. Majority of people have no-one to blame but themselves half the time.
what i said to pistolped7:
It starts largely in the home, these guys (and im talking about the large number of under 18' who were in it) have little to do, and no parental control and focus, couple that with gang culture, a sense of entitlement without wanting to put the work in, and boom: welcome to the rioters in my neighbourhood
it happened not because of some social factor, but because after the intial tottenham riots, they saw an opportunity. Add social media,and you got riots moving faster than the police could see. This wasnt one racial part of society, or one class of society. This came down to those who saw chance to get something for free, they were not trying to stick it to the man, or the police, or vent fury. they were robbign and stealing and targeting stores for trainers clothes and Iphones.
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Clearly I'm not arguing that the UK is the only society with hoodrats in it. All I'm saying is that if you believe this merely is caused by the presence of hoodrats, what causes someone to be a hoodrat? How can we fix these causes so there aren't hoodrats in society? Why are the hoodrats acting up now? And why is it that this is only happening in the UK? Do other countries have these hoodrats, and if so, why are they not acting like this? Or if they are acting like this, what do they have in common with British hoodrats? There are plenty of hoodrats in the US, and depending on how you define hoodrat, many more than in the UK (the US has a much larger lower class and a smaller middle class than the UK and more importantly, much higher crime rates). Yet the hoodrats haven't turned to rioting in the US even though there is greater reason for them to do so (it's more difficult to be poor in the US than the UK and more importantly, there is one gun for every seven people in the US, if the hoodrats wanted to they could create absolute mayhem in the streets). I think that's interesting to look at.
And as far as OBL goes, you clearly aren't hearing what I'm saying at all...where on earth did I say we should "let him off?" All I said was that it's important to try and understand the causes behind important events. We took the attitude after 9/11 that we didn't need to, that we had to kill him no questions asked. The result is we get involved in costly, lengthy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to "remake the Middle East" that we have to pull out of after we've created more problems than were there to begin with. And what does that have to do with OBL? Nothing. But we ****** up royally because we thought it wasn't important to understand the reasons behind his actions.
Impossible. There will always be significant numers of people who believe that they deserve something for nothing.
Well there you go. That's much more constructive already than 99% of what is being said out there because at least you're trying to articulate some of the reasons behind this. I think that's much more productive than what most people are doing. So now then the question is what can be done about this? How do you fix the broken homes? How do you fix the gang culture? How do you get rid of the sense of entitlement? This is what people should be doing, trying to cure their society that obviously has some problems. Maybe there isn't a solution but people should at least be searching for one after something like this happens.
I liked your first paragraph but then in the second paragraph you say "it happened not because of some social factor" after you just provided the social factor behind it! Clearly there is a social factor behind looting. You say it's because they saw an opportunity. But why did they take the opportunity while you and others didn't? Clearly it has to do with social and economic reasons, possibly the ones you identified in the first paragraph. But there is a reason that some turned to looting and some didn't and that's what people should be trying to figure out right now. Based on that people can work towards making a better society.
On a lighter not I wonder if anyone from fm base got any free stuff during the rioting.
Well, we did have two advertising threads earlier offering Applie Iphones....
But they won't always take to the streets.
I agree, up to some extent, with curtis here. What started as a protest by a few became a window of opportunity for many people who saw this as their chance to loot, burn, destroy... We had similar riots, the US had similar riots, and I bet most countries, at different points in time had similar incidents. This isn't exclusive to the UK by no means - stupidity knows no borders. And yes, you need to try and figure out what went wrong with these people. This is certainly an experience noone wants to relive, thus it's paramount to know why it happened. It's never as simple as 'some poor people wanted some stuff for free'.
Are you sure about that? And how about at least trying to reduce the number of hoodrats? Or make them more refined hoodrats that don't behave quite as badly? I think just saying that "hoodrats will be hoodrats" and not trying to work toward a solution is a pretty defeatist and depressing attitude. I'd rather try and fix a problem or at least brainstorm about fixing a problem than writing it off as impossible. Another thing is I don't see this happening in other places. Look at crime for instance, if we look at crime as an indicator of the amount of hoodrats per capita a place has (I think this would be a pretty good indicator, no?). Compare the crime rate of a place like Norway or Sweden to the UK. Different countries and circumstances I know, but I definitely think there's something at least worth looking at here.
---------- Post added at 05:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 AM ----------
My thoughts exactly. +1, I'm out of likes.
Chaz Sexington
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I'm agreeing with Curtis, though I have no doubt we'd disagree on the cure for the sense of entitlement
no it doesnt becuase plenty of people in the same situation didnt loot, not only that they infact fought them. Hence why i said there is no social factor, that is why no one is dicussing it. Not sure why you care/worry whether people are being constructive. that will come once peoples anger subsides
It was just a few thousand from 65 million people rioting. I agree, they feel there's a sense of entitlement to what they want - I think everyone accepted that? It doesn't mean there's an underlying fault with the system, nor does it mean we should just pander to every whim. As I said, everyone in this country is given free education till they're 18, and there's extensive funding for university education. Failing that, everybody can still always start their own business and work for themselves. That's more than enough opportunity to work hard and achieve the things you're 'entitled' to. It's not my problem if you choose not to take advantage of that, nor is it society's problem. We should introduce national service back for those who are long term unemployed, and if we're going to say people fail in school because they don't see a point in it at such an age - Bring corporal punishment back for the underachieving schools. If they're STILL failing in society after that, God help them.
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And Curtis, if it's the UK where all the "hoodrats" are acting up and no other countries are, and we're going to point out social flaws on a minority group - How many school shootings has America had? I'd say that people deciding to take a gun to school is just a tad more serious of a problem than opportunistic rioting?
---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 PM ----------
And Curtis, if it's the UK where all the "hoodrats" are acting up and no other countries are, and we're going to point out social flaws on a minority group - How many school shootings has America had? I'd say that people deciding to take a gun to school is just a tad more serious of a problem than opportunistic rioting?
It doesnt have anything to do with economical reasons. XD FML!
After re-reading your notes about OBL, althought I now agree that we should have looked at the resons behind, if that action was taken it MAY have made things worse terrorist wise, but we can't judge on that though because it hasn't happened. The US and UK stormed the middle east, because of OBL's actions. Im sure that prietty sure OBL had a lot to do with that.
It's impossible to reduce the numbers of these hoodrats. There is no way we can reduce the numbers.. legally speaking. The only way we could reduce them is to kill them. We could deport them, but I highly doubt the UK would do that, because the government is so spineless. The were oppturnistic copy cat theives. Its constantly said on the news. They rioted in London because of a shooting. There was no shooting in any other parts of the country, there was no racial riots in any parts of the country. They rioted because they thought they could get away with it. Now the Police have been told they can be much tougher on the lil *******, its conveniently gone quiet. Im sick to death of people saying its because of the economy, its because of the police blah blah. ITS BULLSHIT! Its because they know no boundaries beyond stupid. The rioters may claim its because of no jobs etc, so I know i'll go burn a store so someone's life is ruined. If I can't have a job no-one can. That's how they have seen it. May they long rot in jail.
After re-reading your notes about OBL, althought I now agree that we should have looked at the resons behind, if that action was taken it MAY have made things worse terrorist wise, but we can't judge on that though because it hasn't happened. The US and UK stormed the middle east, because of OBL's actions. Im sure that prietty sure OBL had a lot to do with that.
It's impossible to reduce the numbers of these hoodrats. There is no way we can reduce the numbers.. legally speaking. The only way we could reduce them is to kill them. We could deport them, but I highly doubt the UK would do that, because the government is so spineless. The were oppturnistic copy cat theives. Its constantly said on the news. They rioted in London because of a shooting. There was no shooting in any other parts of the country, there was no racial riots in any parts of the country. They rioted because they thought they could get away with it. Now the Police have been told they can be much tougher on the lil *******, its conveniently gone quiet. Im sick to death of people saying its because of the economy, its because of the police blah blah. ITS BULLSHIT! Its because they know no boundaries beyond stupid. The rioters may claim its because of no jobs etc, so I know i'll go burn a store so someone's life is ruined. If I can't have a job no-one can. That's how they have seen it. May they long rot in jail.
There's another thing people have to consider aswell if they think they need some sort of help. It would be like asking some of them to change a la a leopard changing it's spots. It just won't happen. If they think they'll get away with it, they'll keep doing it. And that's where a parent MUST take responsibility with regards to this. The parent should be the childs role model-they must ingrain into them what is right and what is wrong. But by the time they are 15-16 they SHOULD know for themselves the basic difference between right and wrong. And it's obvious some of the parents are failing epically in regards to that-as obvious by the pictures coming out.
But there's also a sad fact that will come out of this. The majority of teeanagers will now be viewed (wrongly imo) with a lot more suspicion after everything that's happened. There's a lot of youths out there who do a lot of work in within the community, do youth projects, help each other out, lots of things. But there will be people out there will tar them all with the same brush, which is very tragic.
But there's also a sad fact that will come out of this. The majority of teeanagers will now be viewed (wrongly imo) with a lot more suspicion after everything that's happened. There's a lot of youths out there who do a lot of work in within the community, do youth projects, help each other out, lots of things. But there will be people out there will tar them all with the same brush, which is very tragic.
The problem is that their parents are in poverty, which makes them more likely to live in poverty. Most of their parents are probably too high to even care about their kids, but still - opportunity is there, it's just a defeatist mentality to accept yourself as being in poverty because your parents are. People are born into poverty all the time, and that just acts as motivation to break it and make something for themselves. It's the underlying mentality of the person, and that's difficult to change. FORCE them to do something in society rather than just invest in schemes to try and give an incentive for them to work. If their mentality is that they don't need to do anything, constantly giving them carrot won't change them, it's time for the stick approach.
Most definitely
, although I’m not sure how much the “sense of entitlement” is a problem. What I will say is that by many indicators places like Sweden and Norway have about as well-functioning of a society as you can have, and they don’t seem to have problems with “hoodrats,” crime, and rioting. Maybe we should look somewhere in that direction. I also think that this type of thing happens in places where there is a lack of community (one reason it happens in large cities). People are much more likely to engage in this type of behavior when they feel isolated and unconnected to their fellow citizens. When there are institutions and places that unite people together, there won’t be a desire to go around destroying what other people own. People that are part of a community won’t want to destroy what is shared by that community. When people feel they are out on their own and that their fellow citizens have what is inaccessible, when they feel they are not a part of anything, a reaction like this becomes possible. People are willing to go out and loot stores because they don’t see how it affects them or their immediate friends and family, none of whom may enjoy the benefits of these businesses (either ownership or the means to purchase those products). But they’re much less likely to go and wreck the community swimming pool they all use.
But it does come down to social factors; we are all products of our environment Even you said it came down to parenting, which is a social factor. The “sense of entitlement” everyone is talking about, that is a product of social factors as well. And why wouldn’t I care about people being constructive? Isn’t it a good thing to be constructive? If people are constructive than maybe people might be encouraged to start making changes and some positives can come out of this. If not than you’re just missing out on an opportunity to make things better.
I think that’s a bit too simplistic; it’s an issue of why they are that specific type of **** and why they take it to such an extent. There are a million ways to be a **** without looting and rioting. It’s a question of why they chose that form of cuntery as opposed to another.
I don’t mean to quibble but the problem with this (and particularly your post #995) and many of the posts here is that it’s not really a realistic way of looking at the economy. The economy is NOT simply a bunch of individuals and the result of their individual efforts. Jake said it well: “These people seriously think that everyone deserves to be a banker, or a lawyer or a manager etc etc. I agree that everyone deserves a chance at a decent career and a quality of life, but seriously, the way these uber liberals bang on and try to defend the rioters it's like they think everyone should be in a top job. If everyone was a bank manager, who the **** is gonna pull pints down the pub, clean out toilets, sweep up chips at mcdonalds etc?”
Things like employment and what industries an economy is comprised of are determined by conditions of that nation’s (and the world’s) economy. It’s not like everyone can just work hard and then become bankers, and it’s not like wealthy countries are wealthy because the people work harder than those of poorer countries. Conditions in the economy determine how many and what kinds of jobs are available. There is a limited amount of jobs to go around. Sure, each individual can work hard and achieve success, but only a small few can do this because there are only so many well-paying jobs out there (far fewer than the amount of people in the country). Poverty will exist no matter how hard people work, and usually it’s the people that go to the ****** schools and have ****** parents and don’t have connections and grow up in an environment of crime and despair that continue to fill the ranks of the poor. Well, if you wanted to reduce poverty than you could enact economic policies that do so, but it would most likely come at the expense of the wealthy and I know that wouldn’t be a popular idea here.
Now you can justify this by saying that the hard-workers will get those few jobs and the lazy people won’t and that it’s all fine (I'm definitely not here to get in a moral debate about capitalism), but what I will say is that “hard-work” and “lazy” are very relative terms that people are throwing around too liberally (not to mention networking is much more important than merit, and I don‘t think you (I'm using second person in the general sense, not referring to you specifically) can blame someone for not having connections and call them lazy for not getting a job in this economy). I live in the country with the highest amount of hours worked per week (Korea) and that’s not including how much time they spend learning English and other pursuits. Most of you, even the hard-working ones who went/go to good schools, are “lazy” by their standards and would not get good jobs if you grew up here (and also because connections are particularly important here). Many might be unemployed and living with their parents. So I’d be a little more hesitant in calling the poor and unemployed ‘lazy’ and citing that as the reason for their poverty.
Now, as to your post on the US, first I will say the difference is that in the US we have the idiotic notion that everyone must exercise the Second Amendment and carry a gun. School shootings would happen in other places too if there were that many guns. The second point I will make is that of course the US has innumerous social problems that cause this type of thing. If you think I think that the US is a utopian society than you’ve got me all wrong. I could go on all day about the problems of my country and what can be done to change them but this is not the right thread for that.
First off, if it doesn't have anything to do with economic reasons, how many rich people were among the looters? Obviously it's not just economic reasons, but I don't think you can say economic reasons have nothing to do with it.
I didn’t quite follow the first part of your post on the ME. My only point is that it is very important to understand why things happen (to counter your statement that we shouldn’t). I cited 9/11 as an example. Most Americans were not at all concerned with why Al-Qaeda did what they did, and if you did take such an interest you were considered to be some sort of traitor who was trying to justify their actions. This is ludicrous even from the most conservative point of view since you need to understand your enemy before you fight him. The result was Americans did not question our invasion of Iraq even though it had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or Al-Qaeda. But since Americans didn’t care about the specifics of terrorism, they didn’t notice, and we got involved in a massively expensive Neo-con experiment to remake the Middle East. It was a pretty ****** time in American history. So yeah, I think it’s important to try to understand why people do bad things. That way you can respond the right way.
And I do disagree with the next part. I think you can reduce the amount hood rats, control their behavior, take away their incentives to riot, etc. What I find fault with is that so many of you have already given up on this by responding as you have: by assuming that you know for a fact that there is no way to do these things and that it simply comes down to the unchangeable problem of people being *****. How certain are you of this? What made you come to this conclusion? Even if you think this is probably true, if I were you guys I’d at least by trying to think of solutions rather than just assuming that there are none and that the animals should be shot. Even if there are no solutions, I think trying to come up with some is more productive than just getting angry about it and then forgetting about it in a month.
Curtis, its not simplistic. You havent met them. You havent lived with them. And i hardly think we're missing out. Peple have a right to be angry first, constructive later. And i dont think its anyones place to judge them on that
Most definitely
Yeah, about that...
Plenty of well-off people were involved in the rioting. Here's just one source.
Not necessarily disagreeing, mind you, on either point. Just providing you with some more information.
When did I ever say it was simplistic? I thought I made it clear that these events were caused by a number of complex factors that probably require a lot of thinking to identify rather than the simplistic answer of "they're just *****." Thought The Economist said it well:
(Riots in Britain: Anarchy in the UK | The Economist)
Except that the shootings in Norway were probably the craziest thing that's ever happened to that country, which has never had riots like those in the UK and US (the maximum prison sentence in Norway is 21 years, which really says something about the rate of crime there). More importantly, it was the act of one person. Terrorism by one crazed individual is really just a case of bad luck: every country has insane people, and as long as guns are legal there's little that can be done to prevent one lunatic from wreaking havoc on the rest of the populace (of course there is the police reaction to talk about, which apparently was way too slow, something Norway should examine in light of this incident). What are you implying the problem is in Norway that caused this: the Islamicization of society that he wanted to fight against? When something happens though repeatedly or a large group commits an act, that is evidence of a systemic problem. The amount of violent crime in the US is definitely a systemic problem because it isn't one isolated incident (like what happened in Norway). Or the presence of thousands of looters in the London. If one person went around trying to break into stores and loot things, it wouldn't really be evidence of anything other than his insanity. But when thousands participate, you clearly have larger societal issues that caused so many people to engage in such behaviors. And as far as the wealthy people rioting, I never denied that and it doesn't change or contradict anything I said. The wealthy people were probably the opportunists that saw an opportunity for free stuff (even rich people like free stuff) or maybe they were among the protesters that started the whole thing. Either way, it raises questions as to what on earth is going on here that would make wealthy people participate in a riot.
What I'm scared of is that this is not one isolated incident but a preview of things to come in the future as the crisis worsens. If even the English of all people are rioting, how will us Americans handle the worst economic downturn in memory and the lack of economic opportunity? Europeans have experienced many worse events than this and will have the historical perspective to accept being poor once again. But Americans are some of the most self-entitled people in the world. Historically our country is a land of opportunity founded by individuals seeking riches. We've had so much prosperity in recent memory and combined with our culture of individualism and the pursuit of wealth central to the American Dream (part of which is homeownership, which fueled the real estate bubble that was a central part of the crisis), we've come to expect success and an economy that continuously improves as we age. Americans never experienced World War II the way Europeans did and we do not have thousands of years of history. We are a new country with a long history of prosperity and growth without much in the way of tough trials (the only exceptions are the Civil War and the Great Depression), and I think we will be extremely disillusioned with the future's bleak economic prospects. We won't be able to handle the lack of wealth and job opportunities and the idea that the American Dream is dead will strike us at our core. It has become such a central part of our identity that losing belief in the existence of that ideal will be a traumatic experience that undermines our sense of who we are. This will be the first time in many years that America has suffered this type of trauma, and those that remember the last time this happened are octogenarians. We've become addicted to our prosperity and withdrawal will be painful enough to drive us to extremes. And in a country with one gun for every seven people and the world's most powerful military, this is a recipe for disaster. As I said in the thread about the credit-rating, I do believe that following a period of disorder and economic turmoil we will have a right wing authoritarian president who seeks to restore order at home and America's empire abroad.
I've gotten way off-topic but I believe that these riots will not be remembered for their actual damage (some shops and buildings in a few areas in London), which in the grand scheme of things is not a cataclysmic event. They will be remembered as some of the first of many riots and a period of turmoil during an era of global economic crisis.