what the ****

[oscarpink]

ive just 1-0 to newcastle, went for control changed some stuff and i think i got a little unlucky

ok im gunna change my full backs to support, play shorter passing, play with less width and work ball into box and see if that works

 

[CaptiveBridge]

ive just 1-0 to newcastle, went for control changed some stuff and i think i got a little unlucky

ok im gunna change my full backs to support, play shorter passing, play with less width and work ball into box and see if that works

What did you change? Why did you change it? What is the current setup? Did you answer the questions we asked?

Take a step back and do things slower. Clicking stuff and seeing if it works can stumble you into a tactic, but you need to understand how things work in order to really gain anything.

 

[oscarpink]

ok so the excact strategy ive use to somehow get beaten by fulham 8-7 on pens (2-2 after ET) and why i made the changes (because they worked so well)
GK vorm

fb support (trippier) bpd defend (wimmer) cd defend (dier) fb support (davies)

dlp defend (mason) rmp support (ali)

winger support (promes) advanced playmaker support (onomah) winger support (son)

advanced striker attack (de jong)

mentality - control
shape - balanced
instructions- all standard other than - stay on feet - shorter passing- work ball into box

shorter passing to not just knock it long to the striker but to create chances and give him attacking support and help us get more possession, similar thinking to the work ball into box, trying to let the team build up the play rather than having isolation up front

i changed the width to normal because i thought keeping a more compact shape would stop as many break aways and to stop the opponent from having as much space, also to compliment the shorter passing.

i set the full backs to support to stop them from bombing so far forward and give the 2 CMs a more creative scope.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

Doing something because it works and knowing why it works are diff things. But it works, and that is a good thing, the more you stop to dissect and dialogue, the more you'll learn the why.



You still have a disconnect in the 3-1 part of the formation. When you are watching the matches (to start you should watch on Comprehensive to get a better picture of how things are going) who else other than the striker is getting into the box to run unto a pass? Is it consistent? The way your 3-1 is set, the striker will be the only one trying these runs. More so, your wingers won't get into a goalscoring opportunity unless they disobey the tactic and make an ingame decision. You could also look at the average position and you'll see a disconnect of sorts between the 3 and the 1. This is what we mean by saying your striker is doing it all on his own.



In the 2, how exactly do you want them to play? Remember the 2, by virtue of how the 4-2-3-1 is are tied more to your fullbacks and AMC than any other position. So as you think of them, think about what your fullbacks do. A 4-2-3-1 can work with any combination of fullbacks, it just means that the two CMs will have to balance those decisions, simply speaking. While balancing, they will still have to provide a solid base for the 3-1 in front of them.



And this will be the one thing I'll say outright, considering your insistence on having 3 playmakers, you do not need a BPD at all. Two CBs to play simple passes into your playmakers would let you keep the ball far easier than having a BPD (I just find that role grossly inflated. I use them sometimes, but a CD is more than enough for most setups.).

 

[oscarpink]

you're right i need to really think about what im reading. its just when i watch spurs play and i watch the centre backs of the three duties BPD just looked right for the players. But actually it just creates a "gerrit forhead" mentality rather than spreading the play well

And i want one cm to be dynamic/supportive and the other to be more containing would a BWM work with a DLP is DLP and RMP just never going to work in this formation?

as for the 3 attacking would you say that it may be a good idea to have an advanced playmaker on support with two wingers on attack, i think i tried this and it was quite good, but im not fully sure

oh and also i was being sarcastic when i said my changes worked so well, as i was wrting it just after the match had ended. btw 3 missed pens from kane in a row (over the fired save and this one) but 15 scored in a row in a shootout FML!!! lol

 

[oscarpink]

soooooooo, i draw against utd win vs chelsea, win vs liverpool then loose vs west brom loose vs young boys loose vs newcastle loose vs fulham then loose vs stoke. wow this game is so realistic

 

[CaptiveBridge]

you're right i need to really think about what im reading. its just when i watch spurs play and i watch the centre backs of the three duties BPD just looked right for the players. But actually it just creates a "gerrit forhead" mentality rather than spreading the play well

It's not that it creates a hoof the ball forward mentality, it gives them the freedom to more often. All the roles should be thought of in relation to the rest of the team. If you have only one goalscoring threat, then everyone else ends up hoofing it up in a way.

And i want one cm to be dynamic/supportive and the other to be more containing would a BWM work with a DLP is DLP and RMP just never going to work in this formation?

It could work, it would just mean that other players balance those roles in the middle. For simplicity, think of the two as holders. I know it's not going to give you anything much to look at and they're match ratings may suffer (defensive players would only get good ratings if they have enough successful defending instances. So the better a possessing team is setup, the lower the number of times your holding player will put in a key tackle, interception, etc. The rating may suffer, but their presence on the pitch in that holding role will be of far greater importance.) - but it's a platform to build on. Any defend duty except the BWM is a holder. The BWM could be seen more as a hard tackling runner. CM(d) and DLP(d), CM(d) and CM(d), or DLP(d) and DLP(d) are all good holding duos. Once you have an idea of how the holding duo plays, you can then do a holder-runner. But I'd stress watching games with the holding duo to see the base they provide for the 3-1 and how they allow the fullbacks to get forward a bit more even if they're not on an attacking duty. This aids in possession as you now have players deep who can play the simple passes to keep the ball.

as for the 3 attacking would you say that it may be a good idea to have an advanced playmaker on support with two wingers on attack, i think i tried this and it was quite good, but im not fully sure

Remember, you say you want to possess and move the ball around. Does the description of the W(a) fit this? Also, how do the two W(a) or AP(s) help to provide another goal scoring threat? Are they going to be getting in the box to help the striker? W(a) will get into the box from time to time, but how it is defined is that he will charge down the wing, hugging the line, and crossing at the byline if possible on the ball; staying wide off the ball. So neither of them are working to get into the box. Put more succinctly, someone in the 3 has to be a second striker of sorts.

oh and also i was being sarcastic when i said my changes worked so well, as i was wrting it just after the match had ended. btw 3 missed pens from kane in a row (over the fired save and this one) but 15 scored in a row in a shootout FML!!! lol

Fair enough. I tend to read things neutrally/vaguely positively so I miss things like sarcasm and nuance unless I know you as a person to do it.

As for the Kane misses, I don't remember his mental attributes, but if my team were in horrible form and I felt the pressure on and morale was low and I kept trudging around a pitch putting a shift in but no one else is coming close to help me out, I'd prolly be ***** at taking penalties too.

soooooooo, i draw against utd win vs chelsea, win vs liverpool then loose vs west brom loose vs young boys loose vs newcastle loose vs fulham then loose vs stoke. wow this game is so realistic

It actually works out to be a fair set of results based on how I'm thinking you're lining up and how the other teams managers preferences are. United is a slow possession so they may not hit you with the pace you're setup leaves you open to.
Chelsea is a derby match, so as long as you're players are fairly professional and loyal they will give the extra go and end up going against your setup at times for the sake of pride.
Liverpool would want to stretch the game and barring any new signings have an imbalanced squad.
Pulis' West Brom is the perfect setup for you as you're very blunt going forward and demand a bit too much of your CMs.
Young Boys, the pitch is against you. Haven't seen them play this season, but assuming it's the similar to last season they're a flashier Pulis.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

This is where I'll end it for the night. WJ is 5-6 hours ahead of me, I believe, so he can add/refine when he wakes (assuming he's a he, hardly ever seen pronouns used for him/her) or anyone else for that matter. There are some good thinkers lurking about.

Something, which in hindsight, I think may be an issue for you is not understanding what the roles do. Part four of Lines and Diamonds would help: https://sisportscentre.com/lines-and-diamonds-part-four-the-tactics-creator/

Especially from 4.3 onwards. Ta.

 

[oscarpink]

well thanks for all the help, btw putting it on comprehensive is real good actually, just got a 1-0 versus southampton,gives you alot more time to make the changes. I think my defensive shape is there, i was using two dlp (defend and suport) but ill change that. Also cheers for the shout about the match ratings, very useful indeed.

 

[WJ]

oh sorry, ive been on standard mentality on all games other than one away at man united, where i was on the counter.
my plan wasnt to cross neccesarily but to try and build up use the width and fashion chances through posession. hence i thought a roaming playmaker might work with more defensive covering, thats also why i thought BPDs where a good idea. ive been changing roles basically every game so what im giving you is just an overview of the save as is at the mo

BPD have licence to try 40-yard through balls, basically. It sounds more like you want to build through your midfield, so BPDs may completely bypass them if they feel like it.

 

[WJ]

You've been given some decent advice, but you keep changing without telling us why (so we can also see the thinking behind it) and it's as if you're ignoring the questions asked.

Slow it down a bit. One bit of advice I can still give you, is to watch a match on Full. Not even the whole match, just 10-15 mins of it, which is less than watching a whole match on Comprehensive will take you.

You'll see the movement and interplay (or lack of) between the front 4 especially if you do this. Not every attacking move will work out and the ball carrier won't have support in the exact position he needs it 100% of the time, but you can start seeing patterns. You may see your wingers hugging the touchline and being too far away to properly support play. Or they're too wide to be a goal threat. Or they're crossing, but you don't have targets to aim for in the box. ETC ETC

 

[oscarpink]

well after beating southhampton and west ham ive just lost to fc kopenhagen and norwich. ive changed my attacking tactics slightly and i change some instructions but i dunno if i cba anymore, why is it that i can dominate west ham (3-0) then loose to kopenhagen and then get DOMINATED against norwich city 3-1. why should it even matter i tried to find a tactic that worked and it (apparently) did then a team as **** as norwich dominate you. surely my tactics cant be that poor

fb support cd defend cd defend fb support

dlp defend dlp defend

winger support am attack if support

dlf attack

mentality standard
shape flexible (thinking of changing that to fluid but im probably wrong)
instructions shorter passing, drop deeper, stay on feet

 

[WJ]

You're not listening?

You started off by having 2 fullbacks bombing forward, at which point it was pointed out to you (in a good post and explanation, I might add) that with 2 attacking fullbacks, 2 holders are required. This is generally what the 4-2-3-1 allows - 2 attacking fullbacks with a double pivot midfield. On the other hand, generally, teams have 1 attacking fullback and then you can technically get away with 1 holding midfielder to cover for him.

You now have 2 reserved fullbacks and also 2 pure holding midfielders. By doing this, you're solely relying on the front 4 to create something. Against a team like Norwich, who will probably sit back with 7 or 8 players, do you think 4 can create something on their own then?

Have a think about what you want to do, because you're just changing things (seemingly) randomly. Also, take the advice of watching a part of a match in full.

 

[oscarpink]

i clearly am listening because ive changed my cms to dlps set to defend and ive changed by bpd to cd, i changed my AP to an AM and ive explained many of the changes too. And also norwich got like 60% posession against me, so please extrapolate on that sitting back argument, id love to know how you can park the bus and dominate possesion, no they out played us, like they where real madrid or something. and yes i do think that my front 4 could create something theve got 90 minutes and the full backs are set to support not defend so there at least a little expansive. i mean virtually the excact same tactic that beat southhampton and west ham cant beat kopenhagen or norwich.

im hardly changing things at random either i was looking for overlap and you said it was pointless i explained why my width got narrower and why my passing is shorter and i still dont know if im doing it right because you keep just asking questions that i dont know the answer to rather than just say, yes this makes sense or no youre an idiot

 

[WJ]

You changed to 2 holding midfielders, but then also dialed back the fullbacks - the entire reason you needed 2 holding midfielders in the first place. What's the thinking there?

You changed the AM, yes, but why? What are you expecting of him now? How is he going to work alongside the DLF (another change) and how will the both of them find space and be supplied?

Are you happy with the AM and what he's doing? Is he receiving the ball? Is there a big gap between the CMs and the AM?

Both of us (not just me) asked questions in this thread that just weren't answered at all. Who's recycling possession? Who are your 3, 4 or 5 playmakers creating for? etc

If you don't know the answer, then at least say so? Or tell us what you want to do/what the idea is and then it's just a matter of translating that into FM.

Also, Norwich having 60% possession means nothing. It doesn't show that they attacked and it doesn't show that they sat back. It shows that they had 60% possession. Why? We don't know. You watched the match - you tell us.

The FB/S role IS a reserved role, unless they have PPMs that change their tendencies to get more forward? Rose and Walker should have (I think), so that's a bit better, but still there are questions about penetration.

You have that new system. WHAT isn't working? What are the issues? Norwich dominated possession, but WHY? Did they keep the ball at the back? Did you keep giving away possession? ETC.

I don't know about CaptiveBridge, but I'm on the other side of the planet from where you are. I cannot read your mind and I can't watch what happens on your screen. For us to give you advice, we need to at least receive information about what isn't working/is an issue, what you want to do and what is happening.

Some things are quite obvious to pick up, but it's not always the case, so information helps.

 

[oscarpink]

well ive watched the game back and norwich where just better in posession. the team shape didnt look to bad at all i think the players looked like they where in good position, but they just play like ****, they seem to play just over enthusiastic possesion killing passes, rather than i dunno PASSING SHORTER! i mean there was just a great move by mulumbo, redmond, mbakani and brady. they just passed it around my back 6. like they where iniesta neymar suarez and messi

There seemed to be a disconnect slightly with the dlp's and the "3" maybe i shouldnt of dropped deeper as an intruction, to try and close the gap between the team, but this is (i think) the only instruction changed from the sot'on and west ham games and thats only because my staff said it was a good idea. btw i changed the AP to an AM to help create a goal scoring threat and to not have my striker so isolated, which is also why i dropped the ST to a DLF, it was all fine against west ham and southampton seemed like the changes where doing what i wanted, the front 4 seemed to be more connected and i seemed to gain more control.

Then fc kpenhagen and norwich beat me, i mean the kopenhagen one was a close game (probs should be a draw) away from home 2-1 loss with a semi rotated quad- thats fine whatever thats football.

But the norwich game was a joke i mean at home vs norwich and they seemingly are just controlling the game. i mean i was lucky to score, 3-1 didnt flatter them at all. we both shaped up the same but other than tackles won% statistically they where better. its just like they could see better passes. how can i solve this, fluid shape? change the mentality, i should of had my FBs on attack vs norwich. that was a mistake i guess, but still watching it was like watching spurs vs borussia dortmund

 

[oscarpink]

should i now go with a more expansive holding midfield partnership now i have two support full backs and an AM rather than an AP

go with like RMP support and DLP defend for more passing/movement options?

 

[WJ]

In a 4-2-3-1, the AMC position is the key to it all. He's the link between the back 6 and the attacking threats. My feeling was that the AM/A would be too far ahead of the Defend duty CMs, but I don't know the PPMs of your players.

It's worth noting that Southampton and West Ham probably didn't sit back all that much, as in parking the bus. Norwich at Tottenham and FC Copenhagen to me would have been a lot more defensive, but that's just a hunch.

If that is correct, you're doing well enough when there's a reasonable amount of space to attack into, but against the more defensive sides, not so much. Maybe something to look at. In those games, maybe have the AMC as more of a link player (enganche, AP or AM/S) with one of the AML/AMRs as an Attack duty.

Also, don't forget about Moves Into Channels. That can bring another dimension to your attacks. You currently have 2 wingers, who will stay wide quite a bit and they're only on Support duties, so won't bomb forward. One of the AM or ST can also make runs into channels, to drag defenders wider (or to find space if the central player has the ball) so it can be useful.

You mentioned a change of Mentality, sometimes you'll see passing and runs forward being a little too timid. In situations like that, it can help to try and force the issue a bit more with an increase in Mentality as it'll see them taking more risks with their decision making.

Also, against the teams sitting back more - they will be using a fairly defensive mentality, so will play safe and keep ball. I noticed that you have Stay On Feet selected and with a Standard Mentality, closing down is also average. Removing that instruction or even going with Get Stuck In (or just pressing more) can again force the issue more when you don't have the ball. If I had to guess, I'd say they dominated possession because you weren't active enough in trying to win the ball and they weren't in a hurry to get it forward either.

Some food for thought.

 

[oscarpink]

you know what, im just gunna restart ive lost the players and im basically gunna get fired lol. I could talk my way out of it for a bit but theres no point.
Im gunna try and take everything on board and have another crack. thanks for all the help guys, i think i can perform a bit better this time (hopefully) i can update you say 5-10 games in to the competitive season if you want, although i can understand if youre getting tired of me lmao

 

[CaptiveBridge]

you know what, im just gunna restart ive lost the players and im basically gunna get fired lol. I could talk my way out of it for a bit but theres no point.
Im gunna try and take everything on board and have another crack. thanks for all the help guys, i think i can perform a bit better this time (hopefully) i can update you say 5-10 games in to the competitive season if you want, although i can understand if youre getting tired of me lmao

I've got too much time on my hands to get tired of FM related stuff. Just take your time as you go. Pen and paper are also good friends to have as well.