what the ****

[yvek]

rant of the century

 

[WJ]

lloris gk

dier (fb attack) vertonghen (cd cover) alderweireld (cd defend) rose (fb attack)

bentaleb (dlp defend) dembele (dlp defend)

lamela (if attack) erikson (ap supply) son (if attack)

kane (cf attack)

mentality control, shape flexible, instructions - retain posession, higher tempo

obviously not a good enough team tactic i should proabably just commit suicide

so what excactly is wrong with that tactic

but genreally yes thats the best i can see to make them play. i choose retain possession to stop my players from just making over zealous passes and wasteful longshots so i could use the movement of my front four (which i belive shapes up much better now). and then a higher tempo to try and force a hole in there defense. and creating space for one of the IFs or stiker

Okay. What's wrong.

Let us start with the roles chosen and the players for those roles. I'm going purely on attributes and not using any real life knowledge.

Kane. He's very average at Dribbling, 12 IIRC, so you give him a role that roams (so he'll drop off the defenders) and run at those defenders. Then, you're also asking him to play risky through balls, but he's not the best there either with (IIRC) 13 for Passing and Vision. The role does not suit him.

Lamela. He's quite good when receiving the ball and having the ball at his feet. You give him a role that asks him to sit on the shoulder of the defence where he's not really going to get the ball. He's an okay finisher and with that role, that's what you're asking of him most of all.

Son is useless at anything but Finishing, so his role I understand. Eriksen is good at pretty much everything, so that's fine too. You have 2 holders protecting the defence with 2 attacking fullbacks. That's okay.

Onto the TIs and the bolded quote related to it.

Retain possession shortens passing and it reduces risky passes. So for your entire team (apart from Eriksen and Kane) you are telling them to pass to feet only. Eriksen and Kane won't try them as often anymore, but only sometimes. IMO, you'll do much better with this instruction removed. If anything, you're going to encourage stupid shots, because you've reduced the players' passing options quite a bit.

"So I could use the movement of my front 4" is a nothing statement. What movement? Who's moving and where to? If you can answer it, please do. You need to think about what will happen in practice.

Higher tempo to "force a hole" in the defence. How? Higher tempo sees players take less time on the ball before deciding what to do with it. Considering that, how is it forcing a hole in the defence?

----

I asked what the plan behind the tactic was. No real answer.

I asked why you chose the roles and duties you did (we already know the back 6) but it's vital to know why the changes to the front 4 was done. It took a long time, but at least an answer came:

i have eriksen in the hole making short passes to create chances for the front and to help retain possession. i have the two IFs to create multiple goal scoring threats (rather than just having supportive wingers and an isloated striker) and a complete foward (im not sure why really, just seemed good for attacking balance) i think all the roles suit the players and the formation well, yeah

Eriksen's intended role is fine. An AP/S drops quite deep though, so his passes won't always be short, but okay.

The front 3 isn't fine at all. All 3 players, for the most part, will sit on top of the D-Line. They're going to bomb forward.

Look at the total tactic. Front 3 bombs forward. CMs sit very deep. Eriksen is all alone in the middle. Eriksen has a lot to do. He's usually going to be fighting 3 midfielders to find space to receive the ball. He'll need to, because everyone will be playing him straight to his feet. They're not instructed to do anything else.

Now he gets the ball and he looks up. 2 or 3 opposition midfielders are surrounding him and the 3 teammates ahead of him have all run off and are sitting on top of opposition defenders. He's going to have to play a perfect pass and there's not a lot of time to do it (surrounded by midfielders and Control's high tempo + Higher Tempo) so now he's expected to be Superman. Where's his help? Someone to pass to? Someone who is in space for an easier pass? Someone to then pull defenders an create gaps?


This is why I asked this:

Why that tactic? Why those specific roles for those players? Why those duties? Why the 2 TIs? How did you expect it all to work? Did it work like you thought you instructed them to play?

Who's scoring here? If he doesn't, who else? Who's going to provide them? How? Any other ways to supply balls to finish?

Presumably you watched the matches and there were a few. What did you see what was wrong? Did you see anything? Did you make changes? Do you change anything when ahead/behind?

To get something like the reply I just typed to describe your tactic, but hopefully what you intended for the tactic so I could get you onto the right track and playing how YOU wanted to play.

Last night, started that Tottenham save. I started with NO Team Instructions. I don't know what I need yet! I used almost the same starting 11 as you, as that was not a bad 11 to choose. I used Alli instead of Dembele, but it's not a big difference. Since your problem is the front 4, I left the back 6 mostly as you had it.

They were FB/A --- DC/D --- DC/D --- FB/A
with CMs of CM/D ---- CM/S (with Hold Position)

They don't need to be playmakers. Eriksen is the star here. Playmakers will attract the ball more and so 1- they'll take away from Eriksen and 2- they're quite deep as it is and really only there to protect the defence, not do anything fancy.

Eriksen was kept as the AP/S also like you had it.

Now as I said, Eriksen can't do it all on his own. The midfielders behind him were just too deep if he needed to pass backwards. A CM/S was used, but Hold Position so that he doesn't make forward runs. His Mentality is higher than a Defend duty, so he operates a little higher up and closer to Eriksen.

When Eriksen received the ball, he had no options. I asked who was dropping deep into space, being an easy passing option and pulling defenders? Lamela (as mentioned previously) is decent on the ball, so he's the perfect choice to help. You could go for anything here, but I opted for a Wide Playmaker Attack. Come deep, get the ball and drive forward with it.

Son is easy. He's a IF/A. He can't do much else, so he needs to only get involved at the end of a move to finish. Lamela and Eriksen can provide through balls, but there's also the FB/A on the right who can cross toward him.

Now Kane. He isn't (as mentioned) isn't a CF/A to me. There are two ways to go about it. Either give him a AF/A or TM/A role and get him to 'lead the line' as well or give him something different.

The AP/S drops quite deep early on, so (to me!) giving Kane an Attack duty will isolate him in the beginning. I gave him a DLF/S role. Bog standard.

The Mentality is Control. It's an attacking Mentality. Early on in moves, Kane will drop deep to possibly receive the ball and lay it off to one of the 3 behind him. With the attacking mentality, he'll be much more aggressive at picking times to make runs forward, so later in moves (ball heading toward the opposition final third) he does make those late runs to support Son and also get on the end of crosses.

I played around with the setup and I was happier with the Left Back as a WB/S, which is still an aggressive role, but will get far forward only later in moves compared to the FB/A. He was a better passing option for players like Son to pass backwards to and also didn't sit on top of Son early on in moves.

----

But basically, you left Eriksen all alone and were too aggressive with your duties. The TIs were also restrictive.

TIs are often best added if you see you need them. Too often an okay or even decent setup is ruined by the TIs selected.

 

[WJ]

Hopefully that helps. If you have questions, please ask. It took time doing. It took time posting. It would be nice to know it wasn't for nothing.

 

[oscarpink]

WJ that was an incredible answer.

Sorry for getting all passive aggressive last night. i was just trying to say that i got the better of newcastle, i know that wahhh!! 4 lines of stats isnt the best way of doing it, but i was tring to give you context, im sure you understand the pains of FM by now. Being a spurs fan i already know the what its like to drop below expectations, although never quite to this extent over 3 seasons.

i can see how my TI's are restricitve and i was just trying to fix poor player roles. I should also accept that im not going to be banging at a complex game (i regret saying it was broken) immediately.

I should say that i had TI's of "work ball into box" and "play higher tempo" up until the newcastle game and was also often rotating chadli and son (but in the same position role/duty)

So basically my main mistakes (this time round) where having two DLP's (D) with the AP (S) ahead rather than two CM (D)-for instance

giving my wide players too similar duties and therefore just running players into the same space

having a stiker positioned too aggressively for play to be built up in an orderly manner

and then using the TIs to fix the problems that arise from a badly organsed team
would you recommend that i just save any TIs for in the match?

im gunna be going out in a sec so i will try and save my job this evening

 

[oscarpink]

oh and also shouldi just ignore any backroom tactical advice. they seem to be more inept than me lol

 

[WJ]

I should say that i had TI's of "work ball into box" and "play higher tempo" up until the newcastle game and was also often rotating chadli and son (but in the same position role/duty)

So basically my main mistakes (this time round) where having two DLP's (D) with the AP (S) ahead rather than two CM (D)-for instance

giving my wide players too similar duties and therefore just running players into the same space

having a stiker positioned too aggressively for play to be built up in an orderly manner

and then using the TIs to fix the problems that arise from a badly organsed team
would you recommend that i just save any TIs for in the match?

im gunna be going out in a sec so i will try and save my job this evening

Like I said, I also played around. In another match I mirrored the tactic completely as I had Lamela as the IF/A on the right, with Eriksen or Chadli on the left. Deadly as well.

Anyway, the point is that I tried (in my mind) to make use of the players' strengths while still keeping the tactic as a whole in mind.

The DLP/D changing to a CM/D was just a personal preference. It's not a big issue at all. Your main problem was that Eriksen was all alone against 3 midfielders, with the back 6 too deep and the front 3 running away from him. Retain Possession didn't help either.

Read my post over and over until you understand it all. I basically started with your setup, but made changes. Each change very deliberate and I gave a reason for it. The main thing was to give players support and passing options. With your setup, any time Eriksen gets the ball, pause the match. You can then take your time to look at who he can pass to and who's around him. If you make a change, there needs to be a clear reason.

In fact, you can do that any time any of your players has the ball. Just pause the match and look around. Who's in space and available for a pass? If not, who can/should be in a different position to help the passing options? etc.

You can have the striker on an attack duty as well, like I said. It's just a bad idea to have all 3 on attack duties. It means the opposition defenders must just keep their line. No one gets pulled out of position; no space created. Kane and Lamela for me created absolute chaos. Kane dropping deep initially forced at least one DC to step up which meant Son had space to burst into. Later in the moves, Kane became another body in the box to watch and another target to aim for with crosses. Eriksen and Lamela were brilliant. They kept finding space between the lines (Lamela coming very narrow to overload the middle) and so defenders needed to close them constantly. Once those defenders did, it created space for Kane and Son. It was nuts. West Ham were 3 goals down within 14 mins, IIRC. They scored 5 with 3 CCCs and 2 HCs.

TIs can be added to enhance/fine-tune your tactic whenever you see it's needed. If you see something in a match, add the TI. If you find that over the course of 2-3 matches that there's a pattern of (for example) tempo is too slow or you're not aggressive enough in the tackle basically every match, that's a clear sign that you may as well add the TI permanently.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

oh and also shouldi just ignore any backroom tactical advice. they seem to be more inept than me lol

Backroom advice can be useful, but it shouldn't drive your tactic. All staff have preferences to their tactical style, so if a staff member doesn't match up with how you want to play you'll get very conflicting advice and trying to incorporate it into your tactic could mess up. You have to consider what their bias is.


A lot of the in game *** Man feedback lacks context. So if he says you're winning headers, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're winning headers in the box or who is winning those headers. If you have a player sent off, he'll say to drop off but it's a scripted response and doesn't take into account if your changes already cover for being a man down. Etc.

 

[oscarpink]

thanks guys, youve made this game more than playable for me now (im still not that great but im on the right track i think)

thank you very much for your time

 

[CaptiveBridge]

How's it going so far?

 

[oscarpink]

ohh sorry, ive not been playing too much but ive taken a back up restart and my last couple games have been a some what unlucky 1-1 draw against west ham (harry kane 5 missed league pens in arow now lol) and a comfortable 3-0 over watford. ive gone for

FB attack CD defend CD defend FB attack

------CM defend CM defend-----------

IF supply AP supply IF supply

-------------dlp supply------------------

mentality:control/standard
shape:flexible
seemed to work for those games but im just making small changes

ive been trying to find a nice counter strat but so far its a little bit meh

FB supply CD defend CD defend FB supply

-------------DM defend---------------

------BWM supply-------RPM supply----

AP supply-------------------If attack--

---------------AF (attack)-------------

Mentality:counter
Shape: structured
TI: pass into space

 

[McBainy]

Train kean as complete forward way better

never play 2 ball playing defenders unless you have 3 at the back or a half back

 

[ntw3001]

I've found that Son and Chadli are the only two Spurs players who can take penalties at all. The rest of them, you might as well pick a fan from the stands. Lamela looks like the top guy on paper, but in two separate saves (computer death), he managed to convert about one in four.